Oral History with Dov Wiener (2019)

Miriam:

Okay. So it's November the 26th, 2019, and my name's Miriam Freeman. And I am interviewing.

Dov:

Dov [Wiener 00:00:10].

Miriam:

For the LGBTQ oral history project. We've done the permission forms. We've talked about the intake form, what she has already completed.

Dov:

They.

Miriam:

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

Dov:

I knew I was going to do that.

Miriam:

It's fine. I'm just learning this, so you'll have to forgive me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. That they have already completed. And hopefully it went where it was supposed to go online. So as I talked, we have to be here about two hours if we need that long. And if you want to stop before then or if you need to take break, whatever. You're in control. Okay, great. Thanks. So tell me how you would describe yourself.

Dov:

I'm non-binary. At this point I generally say gender fluid, but it kind of depends the day and who I'm talking to. I also occasionally say trans masculine. I know it doesn't look like it right now in my floral dress. But I do tend to skew a little farther masculine than I do feminine on a day to day basis. I'm Jewish. I am 21. I like working with kids. I think that they are fascinating. I'm not straight, that's kind of where I'm at right now. It's been a wonky year.

Miriam:

A wonky year?

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

You want to tell me about that year in terms of its wonkiness?

Dov:

So I started out college with a very set direction of where I wanted to go. I want it to be an astrophysicist, and I was going to do that and I was an applied 00:02:00math major entering college. And then since then I switched to religious studies and decided I wanted to be a rabbi, decided I didn't want to be a rabbi. Had been going back and forth on the rabbi thing for about two years now. But I'm kind of in a spot where I don't know where I'm going, what I want to do. College is ending in a year, so I'm kind of panicking. A lot of the identity constants that I have had since I was for seven ish years now have not been as constant. So I've kind of just been panicking and going through life one day at a time at this point. There's not a whole lot that I have complete control over right now, which is a little stressful.

Miriam:

So that's been particularly this year. You said this year's particularly been wonky?

Dov:

Yeah. Basically.

Miriam:

And it sounds like lots of well fluidity. You used that word. Did you not? Talk about that if that fits for you.

Dov:

I mean I'm gender fluid. Okay. And that took a while for me to kind of accept. Because hen I first realized that I wasn't sick, I went really, really hard into basically toxic masculinity and was like, "I can't be a girl. I must be a guy." Therefore I just went as far as possible the other way. So had to combat that because it was better for me to see seen as a man than it was for me to be seen as a woman. So I just went hard in the other direction. So it took gosh, like 00:04:00three years for me to stop doing that and sort of accept the middle grounds. I've been using they them pronouns year and a half maybe. Before that it was exclusively he. But coming with that has been, I started wearing makeup for the first time in my life. I'm not right now, but occasionally I do. I pulled my old dresses out of my closet again. And there are still some days where I pass very well as a cis man because even though I'm 5'4", don't quite understand how that translates sometimes.

Dov:

But it's like at this point I am understanding within myself that to me gender 00:05:00is not you must be, it doesn't matter quite as much to me to be mis-gendered. It doesn't matter quite as much to me what other people see me as. It's more what I feel comfortable as, as the day to day basis. So I just sort of roll with it. It's been much better.

Miriam:

Wow. So that sounds like an amazing process. And gosh, there's so much I would ask you about. So you said about three years ago was when you went in the masculine, super masculine direction?

Dov:

About four at this point.

Miriam:

All right. And what precipitated that or how was that process?

Dov:

So fun story. I was actually on stage for, I guess the last time. I did it a lot of the year in high school. But my last show, there was a pretty long section 00:06:00where I was usually sitting on a couch listening to other people speak for probably about 20 minutes. And my sister was also, I don't think she was any more at that time. But for a while, she had been struggling with her gender identity. She eventually like, "Oh I'm cis, it's fine." But there was a while where she didn't quite know and she was experimenting with different names and different pronouns. And then she settled into a cisgender woman. And that's great. And I love her for it, and she's great. Most of the time. So there was a while where I didn't really think of it, but it was definitely in the back of my mind. I knew a couple of trans people. I had been there for my sisters who are 00:07:00struggling with her identity. And then I sort of just looked down at my chest in the middle of a stage performance and was like, "Wow, these breasts are wrong."

Dov:

So it was a interesting time to discover that because I immediately had to start saying lines again. But I sort of went home and then panicked a little bit, and then makeshift shift a binder out of a front facing sports bra and a back facing sports bra and just wore a high necked shirt over it. Because at least it shut off my head a little bit. And then I was in the closet for basically the rest of high school. I was only there for three, four months after that. So it wasn't 00:08:00that big of a deal. I was seeing the school counselor at that point for other things. And to be completely honest, there was a Holocaust class. I had been to too many Holocaust classes. I needed to get out of that class, so it was a good time to deal with some stuff. So she was the first one I told because I just kind of didn't know what to do.

Dov:

But there was a pretty good time at the end of high school that I don't understand how no one noticed that I was binding my chest, but I was. I think I came out semi publicly couple of weeks before the end, but basically it was just my close friend group who knew. The person who I had been in a queer platonic relationship at the time with, came out to me exclusively about a week after 00:09:00that. We went from being the only lesbian couple in the school to the only gay couple in the school, but no one knew. And then yeah, it just sort of went through there. And then I went to college and sort of was allowed to experiment on my own, and bought a real binder. Because as fun as two sports bras and a safety pin is so that it doesn't choke you. It's not, would not recommend.

Miriam:

Okay. And what was it like talking to the counselor since that was the first time apparently you had talked to someone about-

Dov:

Well, so I had kind of been talking to her about my sister through all of this because she was, I come from a family that, my parents are not conservative. But 00:10:00they very much had the views of raising us that if it didn't affect our lives, we're not going to talk about it. So there were a lot of things that when I was in high school and Glee came out, that I was sort of thinking about for the first time. So there were a lot of things that we were kind of just working through together. My sexuality came up. That was how I sort of process that.

Dov:

It was nice to have someone who would just listen and let me sort of figure things out on my own, which was more what we were doing at that time. Because I don't know if anyone else really would have done that.

Dov:

But I had some back history with that counselor. And my mom, long story short, 00:11:00my grandmother died and my school counselor with the information that she was given by me was like, "You blame yourself for not seeing your grandmother ever. That's okay. You were a child." And she was comforting me through that part. And I was just sort of grieving when in reality, my grandmother was not just not around. Even for my family that was in the same state with as her, they very rarely saw her. So it wasn't my fault, it was her fault. But with the information that she was given, it was a very reasonable conclusion that it was my fault and I just avoided her. But long story short, my teachers were like, "Your kid is going to the counselor," at a teacher conference. And then my mom 00:12:00came home from that teacher conference and freaked out at me because I didn't tell her and yada, yada, yada, and it wasn't my fault. And "She's telling you lies." Then we had a heart to heart, and I figured out what was actually going on, but it took awhile.

Dov:

So it wasn't the first time that I had been seeing this counselor. I was very comfortable with her. But if I had told my parents that I was seeing that counselor, they would have killed me. So-

Miriam:

Why's that?

Dov:

My mom didn't like her for the reason that I just described. She thought that she was not a good counselor. She thought that she was feeding me lies. It was a time.

Miriam:

So tell me some more about your family and your place in it, and what that means 00:13:00to you.

Dov:

My family is great. When I came out, it took them a minute to sort of get there. But I don't think that that was malice. I think it was just a little bit of ignorance and showing caring in the wrong way. There was definitely a time where I thought it was malice. My mom's a pharmacist. She is great. She was the one who helped me with my homework when I was younger. A lot of times, my dad's a science teacher. He helped me with my homework until I got to high school math. But he always, like when I was little, he came into my classrooms and did some science experiments with my class. And it was a good time. So they raised me to 00:14:00be very analytical and very STEM minded, which has been interesting.

Dov:

My sister is three years younger than me. I love her. She's great. Most of the time, we definitely as we got older, we've gotten a lot closer. When we were little, we hated each other. Couldn't be in the same room for 10 minutes without my parents hated each other. Now that time limit has extended to about six hours, which is let me tell you an improvement. Yeah. But she's in college right now, so she's sort of figuring things out on her own. She's brilliant. My sister went to early college. She is on merit scholarship at Pittsburgh right now, I 00:15:00think. She sort of just collecting minors because she went to early college. So she's just sort of taking the classes that she wants to. But she's already got basically a French major as a freshman.

Dov:

My sister is not always the most considerate person, but I can gush about her for hours type of thing. But she's great. I love her. And I probably don't say that enough. I have a card in my bedroom that I've been meaning to send to her that's just a Snoopy that says, "This is a greeting card, have a good day." And I keep forgetting, and I feel really bad.

Miriam:

How do you think she would describe you?

Dov:

Probably about the same way. She's definitely got some resentment towards me I 00:16:00think, because I was not always the best student. So my parents kind of put that on her. So my parents are very much like do your best, whatever the best that is. But my best over the years has been turning to A, B, sometimes C's. Where hers been always because I've been there, she's been A's. And because she's always been A's, when she started getting a couple of B's and C's because she was taking upper level college classes as a 17 year old, they got very annoyed. So we've definitely like sat down and had some conversations, unpacking a little bit of stuff. But there's definitely, as I am growing older and I know that 00:17:00older is relative and et cetera, I work with children. But there's definitely been ... when I was a freshmen, I called home maybe once a month. I could not be bothered to do anything with my family. I didn't want to interact with them when I went home. And part of it was the trans thing and part of it was that I wasn't always out to them. But I was just pissed. I was a very resentful freshman. But as I have sort of matured and realized that maybe occasionally my mother is not the worst thing in the world, I definitely have a closer bond with all of them. And that's been nice.

Miriam:

That sounds important.

Dov:

Yeah, definitely. There've been times where I, especially this year. Because 00:18:00when my sister started college, she just sort of calls people while she walks. Which on one hand is hilarious, and on the other hand means she calls you about four times a week. And I'm the third person on this list. So I can only imagine how many times my mom gets called. Which is hilarious because my mom and my sister cannot be in the same room with each other for more than half an hour right now without screaming at each other. But on the phone, they're great.

Miriam:

So where were you living when you were in high school and with your family?

Dov:

So I'm from Greensboro.

Miriam:

Greensboro, okay. And why did you come to Asheville?

Dov:

Financial was a bit of it. Queer community is a bit of it. That's where I got in is a bit of it. They have Hillel, they were cheap enough that my parents gave me 00:19:00a budget and I didn't have to take out any loans, which was wonderful. Yeah, it was a lot of combinations of things. I did an overnight here. I ended up narrowing down to ironically here and a women's college in Georgia.

Miriam:

Which was what?

Dov:

Agnes Scott, yeah. They have an astrophysics program, so yeah. So I did an overnight here, and then a couple of weeks later I did an overnight there. And then on the way back to Greensboro from there, we ended up signing here. We stopped by Asheville on the way home and got some lunch and science paperwork and left. Bought a sweatshirt.

Miriam:

Made it official.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

So how has that decision been for you?

Dov:

There's definitely been some times where I wish I made a different one, especially now that I am very deep into my degree and the university is screwing me over a little bit. So that's not been a great time. Yeah. Long story short, I am currently in the middle of registering for classes for my second to last semester. The problem is though, I'm in religious studies, women's gender sexuality studies, and math. Just finished my math minor this semester. But religious studies and WGSS are small enough departments that there's not a whole lot of classes. And I had been told by at least one professor that what happened was when the gen ed requirements switched from categories of things to you have a humanities class schedule. And then the rest of it is taking care of it in your department. But nobody's registering for classes in religious studies and 00:21:00WGSS anymore because the university basically only cares about steam. So a lot of our elective classes are very, very much in danger of just not running. So I currently, I need 12 credit hours. I have a list of five classes of which I need two, and I'm not sure which ones I'm going to be able to take. Which means I don't know my schedule, which means I don't know when I can work. Which is not a good time.

Miriam:

Right. So you have to take two of those, what five?

Dov:

Yeah, five.

Miriam:

And you don't know that they're going to be offered?

Dov:

I don't know. The only one that I know is going to be offered is I got into a section of humanities three. But that is preference wise on the lower end of the list. There's a Jewish studies class. An oral history class actually. Which 00:22:00would be great for my thesis writing. And future research things, but that's beside the point. And then language and gender, which also would be great for my thesis. And then the humanities. And then worst case scenario, if I just need some credit hours to be a full time student, then I can take an extra dance class. Because that's the only other thing I can take. And I'm already taken one. Yeah, it's a little frustrating. Yeah, so there are parts of me that wishes that I was somewhere else. There are also parts of me that realize that the issue doesn't really STEM back to college. Sometimes it stems back to my choice 00:23:00of high school. So that's a different conversation.

Dov:

I went to a Jewish high school. The academics were not always the most rigorous. It sort of trained me to you don't have to try because everything is fine mindset, which is not the best mindset for academics. So there are definitely times where I wish I went somewhere else, because I feel like I would have better opportunities now. But also on the flip side, if I had went somewhere else and I had stayed on the STEM path, then .... I am very happy with decision that I made to work with children and be in a Jewish life setting, as opposed to being in a lab 24/7 at night. So I feel like I am going to be happier this way, but also we live in a capitalist society. And scientists make a little bit more 00:24:00money than preschool teachers do, just a tad. So there are moments where I wished that I had made different decisions as a 12 year old. But also, there's only so much that I can blame 12 year old me for things because they were 12. So the repercussions of my actions, of anyone's actions as a 12 year old, it's very hard to be extremely sad about because information at the time. I wanted friends, Jewish things were fun. So yeah.

Miriam:

You said that one of the things that drew you here was the queer community, is the queer community. Could you talk about that? What's your experience? What is it like?

Dov:

So I identify it as asexual for a very long time. And I faced a lot of, and I 00:25:00was out as ACE for probably two, three years in high school. But there were definitely some times that I tried to do organized queer things, and it just didn't work for one reason or another. And some of it was my fault, and some of it was organization's fault, and some of it was my high school bully was running the GSA. So I felt more in tune with just casual queerness than I did with institutionalized queerness. And I still do, honestly. I have not gone to a GSA meeting or alliance I think is what it's now, here ever. I think I've been to 00:26:00Hyannis House maybe twice, but for Hillel events.

Dov:

So I was talking to admissions counselors, there was definitely a question of, "Hey, I'm trans. How would that look like here?" But there was also the question of, "Do you just have a population here? Would I be the only one in the room?" And even at Agnes Scott, like Agnes Scott, interesting community. Would definitely be an interesting time there. And there was a pretty good sized community there just casually not being straight and cis. But here it's different. Especially in the younger populations, it's almost like just infused into the Asheville culture. Which puts me very much at ease. Especially in a 00:27:00place like here where like antisemitism isn't always non-existent.

Dov:

I don't know, I work at the JCC. There's been several things that happened very lately. Plus the country as a whole right now and the world as a whole right now. So it's very nice that I don't have to think about that part, and I can just worry about the other part. Which is privilege, but that's beside the point.

Miriam:

You don't have to think about what part?

Dov:

I don't have to worry about hiding my queer identity because it's almost just not a constant, but enough of an acceptance here that it's fine.

Miriam:

It's the Jewish part that you worry about.

Dov:

Not worry about, especially here. But definitely occasionally it comes up. For example, I was the Hillel president last year when Tamika Mallory came. So yeah. All of that on the student end, that was me. Would not recommend. Yeah.

Miriam:

What was that like for you?

Dov:

It was a time. So I had a co president then. My co president is, well, she's no longer my co president. She's still human. I'm not sure what tense that she'd be in. My co president is a convert, she is a person of color. She is very good at 00:29:00what she is good at. And one of the things that she is good at is writing statements and helping to deal with public opinion. So it was very nice to have her support in that, but it also her identity as a Jew of color and my identity as a trans queer Jew intersected very differently in the situation. Because for her, one of her identities was the one being attacked and the other one was the one that was allied with Tamika Mallory. Whereas me, both of mine were being attacked. So we definitely had different experiences.

Dov:

But we ended up, we released a statement from Hillel. We got bit of backlash from some people. And by some people, I mean one person who just sort of 00:30:00disagreed with things. Always, he's no longer here. So we had some backlash from the statement, but not a whole lot. Because my co was employed by the university, we couldn't protest in any way. So it sort of limited our options to do things. Which I don't think that we would have anyway. I'm going to be real honest there. I don't think that that's something that we would have been, I don't think we would've been organizing protests. That's not who I am. I feel that I've always been sort of one of those people that likes to listen to both sides of the story and decide my opinion. I think that if we had gone the route of just organizing a protest, we wouldn't have gotten that opportunity.

Dov:

But we ended up, all of the Jewish leaders in the community. So the rabbis, the 00:31:00JCC leaders center for, CJJ, Center for Jews for Justice. The Federation, all of them, we all ended up, and a couple of of professors. Sitting down with her in a room. It was her and a couple of her entourage people sitting in a room in the bottom of the temple for a couple of hours, and we just sort of talked. Which was interesting. There's definitely ...

Dov:

So because of the type of person that I am, I would like to say that I heard her side of the story and I am perfectly okay with Tamika Mallory and she's fine and she's a human, and I understand her part of the story. The reality is that I 00:32:00understand her part of the story. I'm still mad. Which for me has been interesting to deal with because I don't really like doing that.

Miriam:

Being mad, or conflict?

Dov:

Conflict, remaining mad at people for that long of a time. I'm very much of the opinion that you're not forgiving someone for them, you're forgiving them for you. So that way, if you're still mad at them, they're still part of your life. But the reality is either way, she does. And she was still this very large figure. Like it or not, I'm still very angry. Which I don't want to be, which is hard. But it was definitely an experience and I definitely learned a lot from 00:33:00it. But now I want to do it again. But it's sort of made me introspect a little bit, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But not necessarily a fun thing. It was a process. It was definitely a lot. And there was definitely some things that I wish I had said when I had the chance, and some things that I know wouldn't have been okay to say anyway. So it's fine.

Dov:

But I don't know, it's hard to deal with something like that. And I did, and it's great that I did because now I can say that I did. But it's not something 00:34:00that I want to do again. I don't know.

Miriam:

[inaudible] opportunity again.

Dov:

I mean, it's very possible. I don't really want to. But yeah, that was not something that honestly we should have dealt with for multiple reasons. She shouldn't have been called here, for multiple reasons. The university's job primarily is to take care of those students, and that was very much not doing that. Also, we weren't allied with the Women's March as a whole. The Asheville contingency of the Women's March was no longer and I believe is still no longer allied with the National Women's March. There was no reason for her to be called here. It was cool. She is definitely like, it was for Martin Luther King week. So she's definitely someone who was relevant for Martin Luther King week. But 00:35:00also, it wasn't.

Miriam:

It hurts.

Dov:

Yeah. It also killed the first part of my semester. Yeah.

Miriam:

Would you talk about the intersections between among trans Jewish queer, as I heard you say?

Dov:

Yeah. So trans Jews inherently don't always fit into the mold very well. Partially because it is gendered, and partially because there are definitely some Jewish populations that are very liberal. There are some Jewish populations that are very not. There are some Jewish populations that pretend. It partially 00:36:00depends on what denomination you're in. Partially depends on what area you're in. It's a toss up sometimes.

Dov:

For example, even something as small as like a bar or bat mitzvah. When I was 13, I had a bat mitzvah. I don't know how to phrase that anymore. I could call it a b'nai mitzvah, which would be what I would prefer to call it. But that's not what it was. So there are little things where it's just like you don't fit in very well. And then Jewish is such a small intersection of, that's not the right word. I don't remember what the right word is. It's such a small group of the population that, and then trans is also a small group of the population. 00:37:00Which who knows the actual numbers, but that's beside the point. So the intersection between the two of them is even smaller, that a lot of times it's very rare that I am not the only trans Jew in the room.

Miriam:

It's very rare that you're not the only trans Jew in the room?

Dov:

Yeah. Generally in younger populations, it's different. And in Asheville it's different. But it's very rare that I go anywhere else and there is someone else who is not cis in a Jewish space. Even here it's not common. I can go to [inaudible] events and there are a couple. But if I'm just going to temple in general, then I'm not meeting a whole lot of trans people.

Miriam:

[inaudible 00:38:02]?

Dov:

Young Adult Jews of Asheville. Sorry. So you end up becoming a little tokenized. And by a little, I mean depending on the situation a lot. Older people haven't necessarily met a trans person before. Language.

Miriam:

Like I did.

Dov:

Yeah. But not even that, even just Hebrew. The reason that I'm writing my thesis on how non-binary people speak Hebrew was because I didn't know how to use pronouns for myself. So I decided, well I guess I'll do this.

Miriam:

So you made it up?

Dov:

What?

Miriam:

So you made it up? Is that what you said?

Dov:

No, no, no. So I'm looking at other ways people have done it. So there have been some efforts. For example, the Nonbinary Hebrew Project has created a whole third gender in Hebrew. So people are using that. But also, currently I've sort 00:39:00of stumbled upon something weird. And I through a friend and the friend's Facebook group ended up interviewing the one of the co-founders of the Nonbinary Hebrew Project. So I've gotten some information from them that I wasn't really expecting to get, including a little bit of how it is working in Israel. But the applications to an Israeli context are not necessarily there. They believe that they are. And in the experiences that they have, I believe that they may be right. But it's not provable at this point. So a lot of the forms are on one hand, very intuitive for Israelis because they're similar. But on the other 00:40:00hand, Hebrew isn't written with vowels. So the feminine form of things and the neutral form that they came up with at some points are the same written. Because there's no vowels underneath them. So they're very similar.

Dov:

So it's been interesting trying to figure that out for myself. I've been told that that is basically the most Jewish thing to do, and I'm very okay with that. I have a question about myself, so therefore I write my whole thesis about it. I explained that to one of the people that I interviewed a couple of weeks ago and they were like, "That is the most Jewish thing I have ever heard." I'm like, "Thank you." But yeah, so it's definitely ... like I work at summer camps. Which 00:41:00once again, very Jewish thing to do. Summer camps are gendered, everything is gendered. But Judaism as a whole, especially reconstructionist reformed conservative has said publicly as movements that trans people are welcome here. But whether they are is not always the same thing is whether they should be, and whether the movement as poll says they are. Also, I live in North Carolina.

Miriam:

And what does that mean to you?

Dov:

I don't want to continue to live in North Carolina. North Carolina. Even before I came out as queer and before I realized that I wasn't straight, I didn't really want to stay here. Especially when you're not in Asheville, not always the most accepting place of people who are different. And different in a lot of cases just means not a cist straight white man.

Miriam:

So what was that environment like in Greensboro for you growing up?

Dov:

So I went to a charter school. Where class of 81, I think there were probably a total of 10 not white people in the class by the time I graduated. Which I don't 00:43:00think was racism, but I'm also a white person and don't really pick up on that all the time. Especially from things when I was a kid. But, there were definitely times where because the minority population was so small and because there were three Jewish people in the class, therefore we also fell into that minority population. That it was a different view than I think a lot of white Jews got.

Dov:

So I missed a lot of the antisemitism, which don't get me wrong. I am grateful for. My sister did not. By the time she was done with middle school, there were 00:44:00Holocaust jokes being thrown around. And it was bad. Yeah.

Dov:

But I remember I went to a public school from kindergarten to second. And I very distinctly that one of my best friends who I rode the bus with in first grade, didn't know any better. But she knew that I was Jewish and she knew that Jews killed Jesus. So therefore she told me the story one bus ride home about how the Jews killed Jesus because I didn't know. It wasn't even a, "You killed Jesus." It was just like, "I see the connection between these two things. Let me draw the line for you." So she wasn't trying to do anything, but I definitely rode 00:45:00the bus home for a couple of hours, talking about how I killed Jesus. And then I talked to my mom and I was like, "Mommy, who's Jesus?" Because it just wasn't something that I needed then.

Dov:

It wasn't explicit antisemitism. It was very much just there. I remember, there was a kid who I went to art camp with who we were cleaning out the supply closet and they found little spray paint masks. And they stuck it on their head. It was like, "Ha, it's a Jew hat." And I'm like, "Hey, Jewish." And then they looked me in the eyes and they're like, "Ha ha, Jew hat." They were just trying to be funny and they didn't know any better and they were kids. But that's how things 00:46:00spread. But yeah.

Miriam:

So if I'm understanding some of what you're saying, you're finding Asheville both [inaudible] and Asheville, somewhat different than what you experienced growing up?

Dov:

I think that now, I am-

Miriam:

[inaudible 00:46:27].

Dov:

Yeah. Essentially, yes. But also, I think I know, I have choice about my environment now. So I enjoy being around young Jewish people. So I tend to be around young Jewish people. I enjoy being around other queer people, so I tend to be around other queer people. So it's not necessarily that things aren't happening. It is just that they are not happening to me because I don't go to 00:47:00situations where they do. Which is great for my mental health. I'm also very aware that that's not how the world works. But I'm also very aware that if I didn't do that, I would be very stressed and not having a great time. So I let it.

Miriam:

So it sounds like that helps you to stay grounded.

Dov:

Yes.

Miriam:

What else helps you to stay grounded?

Dov:

I dance a lot.

Miriam:

What kind of dance?

Dov:

Yeah, just sort of whatever I run into at the time. I did swing dancing a lot during high school, and that's sort of where it started out. And then swing here is terrible. It is not good. They have swing dancing here, but it is so bad. And I know that that's ridiculous sounding, but it's terrible. It's bad. So I did 00:48:00Contra for awhile here, and then there was a lot of drama in the contract community for a lot of reasons. Some of them were being blamed on basically my group of friends for no reason. Well there were reasons, but they were justified and wrong. So I did Contra for a while, and then I did blues fusion for awhile. But then that stopped happening. So I've sort of been branching out a little bit. I did a contemporary class here. I did a modern class here. I'm taking ballet and next semester. I took some ballet outside of class, outside of the university. But the problem was that I, ballet classes are expensive. So I did 00:49:00not always have the money to continue doing that. So I did about three quarters of a semester and then sort of just teetered out a little bit.

Dov:

And I actually need to go back there because I now have steady income, and I owe the ballet studio about 30 bucks. So I should pay them back some time. I should do that today. Give me a second. This pen is not working on my hand. That's fine.

Miriam:

That might not be even, may be even worse.

Dov:

That's, Nope. I'll write it down.

Miriam:

You want a piece of paper?

Dov:

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Thanks.

Miriam:

So how's this going for you? Are you okay?

Dov:

Yes.

Miriam:

Okay. You need to take a break? We've been talking almost an hour.

Dov:

I think I'm okay.

Miriam:

Sure?

Dov:

Yeah, I don't know. I work with children. I'm used to talking for a long strands of time. You're even listening, so that's already better. I love those kids, but oof.

Miriam:

So you're at the JCC-

Dov:

I'm at the JCC.

Miriam:

With kids?

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

What age do you work with?

Dov:

So I'm in the afterschool program, and I have a class of 11. I think 11, maybe 12. It depends on the day sometimes. The first and second graders. And look, they're great kids. I had a conversation with them the other day about how the rewards system that we were doing caused them to be too perfect while they were here. And they just wanted a place where they could relax and be themselves, and 00:51:00not have that pressure. So therefore we should do something else. And I'm like oh my gosh, if I had that much emotional intelligence when I was seven, I'd be president by now. But oh my God, they drive me nuts. But it's okay because they're kids.

Miriam:

Obviously you have a great love for what you do.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

What is it about that, that you love?

Dov:

I mean, kids are great. Kids have so much, what's the word? Part of it is that they don't let anything stop them. Like you know what, I had a kid in a wheelchair who had broken her foot. She's not permanently in a wheelchair, but she had broken her foot and they couldn't give her crutches because she's seven. She's eight. I don't know. She's young. So they gave her a wheelchair and a 00:52:00cast. And you know what? It did not matter that you had a wheelchair and a cast on her foot. If she wanted to go to that side of the room, she would hop up out of the chair and run over there.

Dov:

The things that come out of these kids' mouth. It's like, how did you come up with this? I could never come up with this. I have a kid who has, he was so excited right now. Because, and part of it is me letting him be excited because his magic tricks are not very great. But it's fine. But he stuffs a Spiderman man glove up his sleeve and he's like, "Dov, look. Do you want to see it appear?" And I'm like, "Yes, I would love to see it appear." It's he's like, "One, two, three." And I'm like, "Oh my God. Look friend, did you know that he's magic?" And he's like, "I am so magic." And I'm, "Look friends, did you see Eli?" And they're like, "No, he's not magic. He just stuffed it up his sleeve." 00:53:00And I'm like, "But you don't understand. He's magic." And he's been doing this for like four weeks, and every time. But he's so excited, and he's so small. He's so small.

Dov:

The things that they come up with, it makes me motivated to do things because it's like well, if they can do this, if they can come up with a whole imaginary society with dinosaur figurines. Then do you know what? I can write this paper. But they're just so fun. Something, I don't know when it happens. I think it has to be around fourth grade because the fifth graders are at times. Some of them are great, and some of them are like, "You are so responsible. Please help me 00:54:00with these running first graders. I enjoy having you in my classroom." But some of them it's like why did you just elbow this kid in the face? That was not necessary? And they're just like, "I don't know." I understand that your brain is developing, but why? But the age where they're still young enough to just have no filter and just imagine whatever they want to. Those are great kids. And the older ones are great too, just in different ways. Kids are so fun to work with. Yeah. They make me want to be better because I want to be better for them. Yeah.

Miriam:

So what else do you do to take care of yourself and stay grounded, and take care 00:55:00of your mental health and your physical health?

Dov:

Not enough. I have a thing with doctors, so I don't do things as much as I should. Part of that is because I didn't really go to a doctor when I was a kid because my mother is a pharmacist. Part of it is that I am a trans person. Doctors in North Carolina are not always the most accepting. So at this point, I'm kind of jaded. But I should probably see a doctor. That's a good plan. No, that's a longterm. I have been casually saying, "Wow, I should really go see a doctor. Wow. I should really go see a therapist," for like three years. Yeah, I really should do that sometime. But, like I have dance injuries from high 00:56:00school. No actually, that was not a dance injury. That's because I fell off a rock wall. It just keeps getting aggravated because I do stupid things. That I should probably go to PT for.

Dov:

We discovered over the summer that I should probably go to a chiropractor and fix my back because my arms are two different lengths. I just sort of don't. It's not a wise decision. I would not recommend this choice of action. Doctors are expensive. Finding a doctor is hard. Most of these sound like excuses, I'm aware. But also, I am trying my best. Yeah.

Miriam:

Otherwise you keep your mental health healthy? Your mental state healthy?

Dov:

Relatively. I have depression. I'm aware of this. I don't see people for it. I should probably be on meds. I just sort of don't. So I definitely, winter's hard because depression plus seasonal affect disorder is not a great combination. But I don't know whether it's that I started working with kids again, or if it's that I am just busy enough anyway that I'm sort of not had a chance to, that's possible. The semester ends a week after Thanksgiving, which is so stupid.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Dov:

It's dumb. It's not a good plan. Just push us one week back into April, April. Into August and just end it at Thanksgiving. That's just a stupid plan. I don't know, it hasn't been as bad this year. I think it's also that I'm making a significant effort not to just hide in my room. Which has not always helped. But I have some friends who live across the building. I'm here, there's another hallway here. They live on that building. Which is nice. I live with people that I most of the time enjoy living with right now.

Miriam:

[inaudible 00:58:52]?

Dov:

No. Thanks goodness. So I'm trying to not be a hermit, which is a wise decision.

Miriam:

I know it's so hard to do if you're depressed.

Dov:

Yeah. Yeah. But I think that preventative measures. I started out not hiding away in my room, so therefore I'm being less depressed. Which means I can not hide in my room, which means I can be less depressed. I think that that's the better plan. Also classes at this point, I am so burnt out it's not even funny. If I skip classes, that's just something that I do to myself. And it's not a good plan, but it's also a me problem where if I don't go to work, it is then a problem for the kids. And that I can do. That's not okay. So it forces me to not 01:00:00be there, which is a good thing.

Miriam:

How long have you had a relationship with depression?

Dov:

I don't know. So counselor back in high school that my parents don't like sort of figured it out and she was like, "You have seasonal affect disorder." And then she was like, "Maybe you'd get one of those light things." And then another adult in my life bought me one of those light things because I did not have the money and could not get it shipped to my house. Which was great. And I am so thankful for both of those people in my life always. But sorry, I just had a loose thought.

Miriam:

It's okay, go wherever you want to go.

Dov:

No, it makes no sense. But we sort of thought about it and traced it back. And 01:01:00then realized I could never get into the junior honor society in middle school because third quarter when they always looked at the grades, I always got a single C. And we realized wait a second, that is in the dead of winter. What if, I know this is a wild guess here, but what if this has been happening for years? And I'm like, "I think you're right." And then it sort of traced forward to the point where I don't know, probably junior year of high school, maybe senior year of high school, it was no longer just happening in the winter. And I was like wait a second, there might be something going on here. And then I just sort of ignored it for a while. I don't know, it's been one of those things that it's 01:02:00been a journey and I accept it. And also, I have been told since I realized this, that apparently my mother's side of the family has a history with depression. And just nobody told me.

Miriam:

Does it make a difference to somebody who's told you now?

Dov:

It makes me feel less crazy. And that's a great feeling, because now I know. There were definitely, like my aunt told me about things that, like some of the things were about people who are no longer alive. Some of the things were about her, but some other things were about people who were not in the room, who did not consent to being talked about. Who she told me things about that I probably 01:03:00don't need to know. It hasn't affected my relationship with them, but also now I know this thing.

Dov:

But yeah, I think that a lot of things were not stigmatized. But not not stigmatized when I was growing up. And I think that if I had been, if it hadn't been something that just hadn't been talked about, sometimes people need some help with their mental state. And being sad all the time isn't normal. That it might've been a positive thing. It only became something that was really talked about when I was like, "Hey, I have depression." Two years later I came out as 01:04:00trans. My mom was worried that I would kill myself, and then it became a thing that we talked about.

Miriam:

Have you ever been suicidal?

Dov:

Not action-wise, but there have definitely been times where I thought about it.

Miriam:

Are you suicidal now?

Dov:

No. I sort of, the last time I got really bad, it was right around the time where I started working at camps again. And I sort of decided that if I'm not going to live for me and personally make a difference in the world, then I need 01:05:00to live to help someone else do it. So it's kind of gotten to the point where even when it's bad right now I'm like, "Well, you haven't helped someone else make a difference yet. You can't." Which positive, negative, or neutral. I'm not dead.

Miriam:

Well, you said Dov is not your legal name.

Dov:

Yes.

Miriam:

Will you talk about that?

Dov:

I grew up with a different name. Actually, it's an interesting story. So I grew up with a different name. My name started with an L. In Jewish culture, you name after people who had died. So my first name was after my mother's mother, and my middle name was after my father's father. But also, my mom's side of the family 01:06:00hasn't given birth to any males for a while. Enough generations where the last name was done. So my mom decided that she was the youngest of her sisters. None of them were her maiden name anymore. The only one who was the maiden name anymore, I think it was a third cousin. It was somewhere weird down the line. That's when she decided that her maiden name, because it started with the right letter, would be my middle name. So that I would continue to carry it on. Which is cute, but also is a lot for a child. So yeah, that was me. And then I started figuring gender things out and was like I don't want to go by my name anymore. 01:07:00So I named myself [kaffir 01:07:08], which had a lot of problems that we didn't know about at the time when that happened. It is a branch of the Israeli army. I don't really agree with. And then it's-

Miriam:

But you didn't know that-

Dov:

I didn't know it. I didn't know any of it. It's a fighter jet. In South Africa, it's the equivalent of the N word. And then we were also saying it wrong. So basically, I was just like, "Nope." I came back from birthright and I was like, "Mom, I don't want to be kaffir anymore. Help." So I just didn't have a name for 01:08:00three weeks. They just didn't say anything. I had a friend who was like, "Can I just call you honey until you come up with a name?" And I'm like, "I guess so. That's fine."

Dov:

But yeah, three weeks. Every other day, my mom and I went into Barnes & Noble and we were looking at various baby naming books because we wanted to keep the L because naming things. Because I was the only one who's named after my grandmother. So my mom wanted to keep the L because there wasn't anyone who would name after her mother anymore. Because my mom's 14 years younger than her oldest sister. She's the only one with kids. Her kids already have kids. So they've got two and three. They're not having any more kids. So there's no one else who would name after her mother, so she wanted to make sure that I kept it. But we couldn't find anything that we liked. That's not true. We couldn't find anything that I liked. It started with an L. So we ended up my middle name, my 01:09:00grandfather's name was Dennis. So we flipped it. So my middle name is [inaudible] now, and then my first name is after my grandpa Dennis. So it's Dov. We settled on it because after three weeks of me having no name, my mom got really irritated and she was like, "Do you know what? I'm done with this. I'm going to call you Dov until you come up with something else, until you tell me not to." And I'm like, okay.

Dov:

Because when I was first born, my parents, if I was assigned male at birth, I was going to be ... my parents to this day do not, well I guess at this point they know because my name is Dov. But my dad wanted to name me David, but he 01:10:00didn't want my Hebrew name to be David, which isn't how that works. And then my mom wanted me to be Dov, which is a form of David.

Dov:

But yeah, but they didn't decide and then I came out without a penis and they were like, "We don't need to decide. We'll just not decide." So my mom was like, "You know I would have won this argument. Your name is Dov until you tell me something else." And I'm like, "Okay, this is fine." And then probably three, four months later, we had an argument because I just wanted to be out. I just didn't want to be my birth name anymore. I just didn't want to have to deal with anymore. I told my parents this and they were like, "Okay." But then they decided that instead of just being out and when they talk to people, "My kid is Dov now." They sat down with each of the people that they knew and had a heart 01:11:00to heart with them, which meant that it wasn't happening. And anyone that they hadn't talked to, they just didn't.

Dov:

So there was a situation where I was in Greensboro. And one of their not close friends anymore, but they were over at our house to play cards. Said my birth name and called me my birth name. And I got really upset, because I had been out in Asheville for almost two years. And I had been out in Greensboro for almost a year. And there was no reason that that should have happened. And it wasn't that she messed up, it was that they hadn't told her. So I got mad and they were like, "Why are you mad?" And I'm like, "I'm mad because I'm out and you're not treating me like I'm out." And they're like, "So you don't want me to have conversations?" And I'm like, "No, I just want to be out."

Dov:

So my mom, there was a lot of screaming and a lot of doors slamming. My mom that 01:12:00night put, she made a Facebook post and just put on Facebook, "This is my child, their name is Dov [inaudible] Wiener." We hadn't discussed me having a middle name yet. She just stuck it there. And I was like okay. I came down the next morning and she's like, "Did you see Facebook?" And I'm like, "Yeah, thank you." And I was bawling. "Did you see your middle name?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And she's like, "It's your middle name now." So I was like, "Okay, that's fine." Basically that's what she said. She was like, "You know what, I'm your mother. This is your middle name. Do you have a problem with this middle name?" And I was like, "I guess not." And she's like, "Great, because it's yours." And I'm like that's how that works. Yeah. Thanks mom. But it was funny. So it's been a 01:13:00story. Yeah, it's fun.

Miriam:

So you've mentioned several times that you've come out in several different ways in several different places, on several different occasions. Want to talk about that, any of that?

Dov:

I don't know. I came out. Skype called my parents. There was a time.

Miriam:

This was after you were here?

Dov:

I was here for, let's see, I was in [Horace's] room. So a semester and a half probably. Yeah. My parents had been on a journey of trying to get with the terminology. At first they were not. We've had discussions about how they were not,. They didn't understand that the way that they discuss things with me where 01:14:00they thought I'm being so accepting and so great, that it was actually problematic. Yeah, that's basically the end of that. They've since realized what they did and fixed it, but it's fine.

Miriam:

Can you give me an example of what you're talking about?

Dov:

So my mom had recently seen a documentary about trans people and it was like, "The suicide rate of trans people is a lot higher than cis people." So she completely reasonably in her mind has had asked, first thing that came out of her mouth post hey, not a girl. Was, "Have you seen a therapist?" Which is not the best thing to tell your child who just came out to you. But in her mind it wasn't like, "There's something wrong with you." It was like, "I am genuinely concerned that you are going to kill yourself. I would like you to make sure you 01:15:00don't do that." Which I mean, at this point I understand. But not what you wanted to hear.

Dov:

At this point, I understand where she was coming from. And I accept that that was a reasonable thing for her to say, but it wasn't. And my dad just lives under a rock. Look, I love my dad. My dad also is my dad. Yeah, he lives under a rock. But we love him. At this point, the rock has a little bit of holes, but it took him awhile. There were just a couple of things that they said that it's like if it was my child, I wouldn't have said these things. But also, they 01:16:00weren't trying to be hurtful. It was an accident and it took me a while to accept that. My parents are great. They also have come a long way and have a long way to go.

Miriam:

So you came out on Skype?

Dov:

Yeah, well I was here. I just sort of like, I wrote down a thing. I typed it up and I read it, and then I called them. And then they were chill, but not quite that nicely. They proceeded to mis-gender me the whole rest of the call. So they've come a long way. My parents are great. They're trying their best. I'm aware that my dad had little to no experience with trans people. My mom, or even 01:17:00queer people for awhile. My mom is one of those people that every time you talk to her, you find out something else about her past and it's fascinating. And it's like you play three instruments and speak two languages? What the heck mother, why didn't I know this before? But my mom had a couple of friends that died in the '80's from AIDS. So she's got a different perspective of things.

Dov:

So it took me a while to come to terms with the you are actually trying to help and we're not just trying to hurt me. And it just came out wrong, but that's what happened. I don't know. Here, I came to orientation and wrote pronouns on my name tag and that was that.

Miriam:

Okay. And how was that?

Dov:

It was fine. I met the person who I roomed with for two and a half years after that. And they saw my pronouns written on my name tag and wrote his pronouns on his name tag. So it was a thing.

Miriam:

Okay. What advice would you have for parents whose child is on this journey? Struggling, coming out, whatever.

Dov:

Yeah. So questions are okay. And being concerned for your child is okay. But also, the first thing that comes out of your mouth, no matter what else. It should be affirming. I don't care if it is a legitimate concern. It's not the first thing. The first thing should be, "Thank you for telling us, we still love you." Which could have helped a lot of that conversation I think. But also, 01:19:00you're going to mess up. And that is fine. And it might take a couple of years for them to realize that you just made a mistake. But as long as you show that it was genuinely a mistake and you are working to try to fix it, and you are working to try to get more information and be informed, then eventually it'll be fine.

Dov:

Also, you got to realize that queer people, if they're coming out to you in college by video chat, there were definitely some opportunities for them to come out to you in person. There's a reason that they're doing it that way. And that could be because they're nervous. It could be because they aren't sure what you were going to react like. And it could just be because that was the time. But 01:20:00take the time between then and when you see them again to research more. And maybe join a parent group. Don't find another parent. Out your child to the other parent and then talk to them. Join an actual group. Because those are different things. But yeah, just be informed. Maybe save the questions for the second time you talk to the kid and do some research first.

Miriam:

When you say group, do you have a particular type of group in mind?

Dov:

Something to support parents. I don't organize LGBT things. My mom does sometimes I think maybe. Maybe she just talks to people, I don't really know. PFLAG's a good one I've been told. Internet forums are also a good source. That's where a lot of younger people are on a lot of internet forums now. So that's a pretty good, but don't go to the ... there are good internet forums and then there are bad internet forums. And you really need to be pretty discretionary about which ones you are looking at. Because some of the times they're supportive, and some of the times they're like, "Media is brainwashing your kids. Don't let them do that." And that's not what you should be doing.

Dov:

No matter what, I don't care if you as a person support LGBT things. Trans kids 01:22:00from supportive homes have an 80% decrease of suicide. And that's a fact. There's no way to argue that. So it doesn't matter if it's not something that you would be supporting if it wasn't your kid. Do not tell them, "Don't hate the sinner. Hate the sin," because that is also bad. But support your kid please. Youth suicide is not okay. College age suicide is not okay. Parents can do a lot to prevent that, and they don't realize how much they can do to prevent that.

Miriam:

Other than what you've already said, what?

Dov:

Support your kid.

Miriam:

Do you have other ways that you would suggest supporting your kids?

Dov:

No. Just be informed. Be informed. Don't ask stupid questions. Parents get a 01:23:00little bit of leeway with the stupid questions I feel because my parents have more of a right to know about my body changes than a random ...

[audio cuts off]

Miriam:

Oh, my goodness.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Wow.

Dov:

Yeah. But it's a startup. The upcoming summer will be year three, and I was there for years one and two.

Miriam:

Oh, wow.

Dov:

So the rabbi who has been working there basically taught me how to song lead. I have a friend who taught me guitar, but he was the one who really taught me how to do things. And the camp director, she's great. She's great. She's one of my favorite people. If they were not located in LA, I would very much be ... Well, 01:24:00I could just ... career camp director and just do that, but also the area in LA ... I don't want to be in LA. LA is [inaudible 00:00:55].

Miriam:

Well, that was going to be one of my other questions is where would be your ideal place for you in terms of ideal community/environment?

Dov:

I don't know. I made a bunch of pros and cons list while I was sitting at the receptionist's desk the other day at the JCC, and then I was like, "I'm done with this." And then I went to my car and I left. I am not ready to think about [crosstalk 00:01:25].

Miriam:

Oh, okay. All right. But I didn't mean specifics, I just meant if you could create a place in your mind.

Dov:

Not crazy living expenses, traffic reasonable, not a huge city, but not in the middle of nowhere, there is Jews there, there are queer people there. Yeah, 01:25:00that's what I got. Not cold all the time.

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

As fun as New York is ...

Miriam:

Yeah. Okay.

Dov:

It's very cold.

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

I want to go back to Asheville just a minute. What does Asheville needs in terms of being more supportive of the queer community?

Miriam:

I mean, I did not grow up here so I'm not the best person to ask that to.

Dov:

But you've been here for three years.

Miriam:

Yeah, but I also don't do anything institutional.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Like even if there was support to queer communities, I wouldn't be part of it.

Dov:

Okay.

Miriam:

Yeah, I don't know.

Dov:

Okay. Some sort of organized Jewish thing would be nice, but also I don't know 01:26:00if I would go.

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

If Keshet had a Shabbaton in the South, that would be wonderful. They are also not going to do that, for legitimate reasons, but that's beside the point.

Miriam:

And I'm sorry, is that the camp you [crosstalk 00:03:06]?

Dov:

No, no. So that's-

Miriam:

So what's Keshet?

Dov:

Keshet is basically the only ... but there are some smaller ones that cater to specific populations, but it's the big Jewish queer group.

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

Nationally. International.

Miriam:

Obviously, I'm not familiar with that. Okay.

Dov:

So they have Shabbaton for high school and a little bit of college aged people across the country. The South is really hard. They don't really do a whole lot 01:27:00with the South because it's not safe. A Shabbaton in the South could be attacked, which is unfortunate, but it's also the reality. So there's one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast and one in the Midwest. So people can go to the East Coast one, but I feel like having a southern one would be valuable, but I also don't think that it's a possibility.

Miriam:

Okay. What have I not asked you that you would like to talk about?

Dov:

I don't know. I don't know.

Miriam:

Anything that you want to finish with/close out with?

Dov:

No.

Miriam:

Okay. I appreciate your talking with me so much.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

You are amazing.

Dov:

Thank you. That's been happening a lot. People are like, "You're great." And I'm like, "I don't know how to react to that!"

Miriam:

Oh, well, you just say thank you and you take it in. Just take it in. You are amazing, and I really appreciate your being willing to talk for this project. It's amazing. I don't know about this thing, so I will have to see what we missed at the end, but if I need to contact you to talk again, is that okay?

Dov:

Yeah, that's fine.

Miriam:

And email is okay? Okay. And do you have any feedback for me about how I can improve this process on my side?

Dov:

No.

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

Sorry. It's also early. I mean, I'm tired.

Miriam:

Are you going to work today?

Dov:

No.

Miriam:

No. Okay, good.

Dov:

Thank goodness.

Miriam:

And what are your plans for the holiday?

Dov:

I'm driving home tomorrow. Well, I'm working from 8:00 to 12:00 tomorrow and then driving home after that. And then I'm making a lasagna because my aunt's not allowed to touch it. We have a thing ... So Thanksgiving is Thursday, but Wednesday night everyone's already in town and my cousins are married and they go to the in-laws sometimes. So everyone for Wednesday night ... My mom makes the best eggplant parmesan, which is weird because we're Jewish [inaudible 00:06:28]. So we have eggplant parmesan and lasagna. And it used to be that my mom made both of them, but then my mom didn't want to anymore so my aunt tried to make them one year and she failed really miserably and just made liquid.

Miriam:

Oh, dear.

Dov:

So now she's not allowed to touch it and I make the lasagna.

Miriam:

And you can make it like your mom?

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

All right.

Dov:

It's not hard. She was just stupid. You know the carton egg whites? Well, she was like, "Oh, this is definitely an egg. I can use this as a binder." And then it was a soup. And I was like, "Aunt [Bren 00:07:08], you can't do that. It's not how that works." And she's like, "No, I know what I'm doing. I'm an adult. You're a child. Stop." And I'm like, "You can't do that." And then it was soup, and I was like, "I told you so." And now she's not allowed to touch it anymore. So win-win.

Miriam:

Well, I hope you have a good holiday.

Dov:

Thanks.

Miriam:

Is this still okay, unrestricted release? Or you'll get the chance to change that when Amanda sent you the transcript.

Dov:

Yeah. I feel like maybe the part about my sister not really knowing about her 01:31:00gender stuff, because she never told people that.

Miriam:

Okay. Well, maybe we should sign another-

Dov:

Yeah, maybe.

Miriam:

... the restrictions. And you can specify what those are.

Dov:

That's probably a good idea.

Miriam:

All right. So I know I have those somewhere in here. Okay, so this is with restrictions. Would you want to just write down what the restrictions are, and then I'll let you tear those up. [crosstalk]

Dov:

Can I borrow a pen?

Miriam:

Oh, yes, you can.

Dov:

Just on the blank part?

Miriam:

Yeah, just under your signature there.

Dov:

Sure.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Dov:

That's the wrong name. That's fine. I don't care. [inaudible] It's the 26th? [crosstalk]

Miriam:

So one of those is for you, one's for [crosstalk] our project. Yeah, and you need to write down the restriction that you want on it.

Dov:

Yep.

Miriam:

Wherever. So this is yours, so I'll sign it. We'll both sign it to hand in. 01:33:00These are yours to tear up. I'll let you tear those up or throw them in the 01:34:00trash or ... Tear them up.

Dov:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Okay, so you've got yours to take, I've got this to give back to Amanda, and I'll just put this in the recycle, if that's okay.

Dov:

Yep. I was thorough.

Miriam:

Okay. Yes, you were. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Dov:

Yep.

Miriam:

Good luck to you.

Dov:

Thanks.

Miriam:

[inaudible] rocking chair.

Dov:

I know.

Miriam:

Thank you again, and have a good holiday.

Dov:

You too. This is your pen.

Miriam:

All right, I'll keep it, even if it doesn't write on your hand.

Dov:

Yeah, I know. It's unfortunate. I tend to get really bored and draw daisies on 01:35:00my freckles on my arm.

Miriam:

Oh, yeah?

Dov:

And then the kids are like, "How did you get those?" And I'm like, "This pen." [inaudible]

Miriam:

Okay.

Dov:

If you can't tell, my 8:00 AM this semester has been a hard time.

Miriam:

All right. Thank you. Bye bye.