Oral History with Michael Todd, Part 1

Amanda Wray:

All right. There we go. Okay. Say your name.

Michael Todd:

Michael Todd.

Amanda Wray:

All right. It is the 17th of March. We are in Asheville, North Carolina. Lots of questions. I don't know how many we'll get through. The first thing, I'm just going to ask about living in Western North Carolina, what brought you here, and that kind of stuff.

Amanda Wray:

I'm also really interested in asking about what kinds of LGBT organizations you've worked with, or know of in the area. I want to know where you were born, and what your family life is so all of those things. Let's start with, how long have you been in Asheville?

Michael Todd:

I have been here since 1995, so 20 something years.

Amanda Wray:

Okay. What brought you here?

Michael Todd:

I was living in a commune, actually a queer commune in Tennessee.

Amanda Wray:

Where?

Michael Todd:

In Short Mountain Sanctuary area, rural, middle Tennessee. I was actually involved in another sister community that we started, which is now, it wasn't 00:01:00when we started. It was just another queer community. But now its main focus is on transgender, trans fluidity, or gender whatever the right terms as they change all the time. That's kind of the focus of that.

Michael Todd:

I came here after living in that situation because I wanted to be back in North Carolina, which is where I'm from. And I wanted to be in the mountains. And I wanted to have access to nature, wilderness.

Michael Todd:

At that point, Asheville wasn't really known as the hip and cool place that it is now.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, I'm sure.

Michael Todd:

But it was really more than nature that brought me. And I wanted to get back closer to family. My grandparents were getting old. And I was very close to them. And I knew they wouldn't be living much longer.

Amanda Wray:

Where did they live?

Michael Todd:

They lived in Durham, which is where I was born. Of course they didn't live a 00:02:00whole lot longer but I was here. That's what brought me back.

Amanda Wray:

Nature?

Michael Todd:

Nature and family.

Amanda Wray:

Family. So, did you consider other places in North Carolina?

Michael Todd:

Well yes I did. It was between going back to Durham or here. And it was interesting enough, my mother who really wanted me to come back to Durham, when she visited me here the first time she goes, "Oh no, Asheville is definitely the place for you."

Amanda Wray:

Oh nice.

Michael Todd:

As we sat in a coffee shop downtown and dread headed people came in an out with colorful clothes. She says, "No, you're at home here."

Amanda Wray:

Where did you live when you first came here?

Michael Todd:

I lived on Charlotte Street.

Amanda Wray:

What was Charlotte Street like then? 1995?

Michael Todd:

Yeah, it was a gas station across where now the Starbucks is, so that was a little loud. But I lived there a short period of time and then moved over to a 00:03:00house right near UNCA. Really within walking distance of UNCA. I knew immediately that I was going to buy a house.

Michael Todd:

What I always said to everybody was, "I want a place where I can plant asparagus." Because asparagus beds last for like 20, 30 years. And I'm like I want to be where I can do that. Getting this house was a whole interesting story in and of itself.

Amanda Wray:

All right.

Michael Todd:

I got this house and I've been here ever since. I bought this house in 1995. I must have moved here in 1994, September 1994. I bought this house in November 1995.

Amanda Wray:

Did you have a job when you came here?

Michael Todd:

I did not.

Amanda Wray:

Did you figure something out when you got here? How was that?

Michael Todd:

I figured something out when I got here. I've always been a social worker in human services, so I immediately came in and looked for a job, and got something that I knew I was not going to keep. But it was at least something to get me 00:04:00through. I worked for Liberty Corners. And I took care of people with IDD.

Michael Todd:

It was part of the big Thomas S. class action lawsuit against North Carolina to get people with, back then it was MRDD, mentally retarded developmentally disabled folks back into housing in the community. But many could not live on their own so they had people who stayed in the house with them on shift work. So that's what I did. I did that for maybe three months.

Amanda Wray:

I can imagine that was difficult work.

Michael Todd:

Yeah. No, what was very interesting was when I was riding through town they were putting this new building. I did not know what that building was at all. I just knew it was a new building. And being in social work, I worked in the HIV/AIDS field before that. I'm sure we'll get to that at some point.

Michael Todd:

I always had crappy, crappy offices. And this was a new building. And I'm like, 00:05:00"I want to work in that building." I had no idea that it was where Blue Ridge Community Mental Health was going. So, when I saw that position, and again I did not know that it was attached to that building, I applied for it. I got that job. And then the day I started was the day they moved into that building.

Amanda Wray:

So you did get to work in there.

Michael Todd:

So I did.

Amanda Wray:

Was it as lovely as you imagined?

Michael Todd:

It was as lovely as I imagined. I had the same kind of experience when I went to work at the hospital, which is where I work now. I was walking down the hallway, and I'm like, "I want to walk down this hallway every day to come to work." I've walked down that hallway every day for 11 years now. So it's just interesting how some thing's kind of-

Amanda Wray:

So was it pretty easy to get a job then you think?

Michael Todd:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

Amanda Wray:

I mean, I feel like the job market feels so tight and compressed here now.

Michael Todd:

It is tight and compressed. No, it wasn't that difficult. I think within a week 00:06:00I had the job at Liberty Corner's. And within three months I was working at Blue Ridge Mental Health. I had a lot of case management experience.

Amanda Wray:

Had you done some of that when you were at the commune?

Michael Todd:

No, I did that when I was in Florida. Back up a little bit. I was born here, raised here in Durham, went through high school. Came out in Durham. Got into some issues with drugs, so needed to get away. I went to stay in a treatment center up in Pennsylvania for about a year.

Michael Todd:

From there I moved to Lakeland, Florida, which many people would say, "Florida is not the South" but I would say, Lakeland, Florida is the South. It is Central Florida. It's not where all the tourists go. Very rural.

Michael Todd:

So that's where I moved to go to college, an undergrad college. That has a whole 00:07:00fundamentalist thing too, which will kind of tell my story as a queer person in the South. Anyway, that's how I got to Florida. And I was there for 12 years.

Amanda Wray:

Then you went to Tennessee?

Michael Todd:

Then I went to Tennessee. After my partner died I went to Tennessee to just be in the woods because there are not a lot of woods in Florida. And somebody had told me, "There's a place in Tennessee where a bunch of hippie queer men live. And they're called the Radical Faeries. And you're just going to connect with them." I never even heard the term radical faerie.

Michael Todd:

When I got there, I got there like at two in the morning. I had no idea. I knew I went up this big steep mountain, and I almost came off the mountain a couple 00:08:00of times trying to get my car into this little place.

Michael Todd:

I entered this place at two o'clock in the morning completely dark. Didn't know. I went into the cabin. There was a couch. I laid on it, went to sleep. I was with someone who had been there before.

Amanda Wray:

Oh okay.

Michael Todd:

I had a person down there that I knew in Florida. And then when I woke up in the morning, oh my God my whole world changed from that point.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me about that.

Michael Todd:

Well I was waking up and all of a sudden this very, very, very gorgeous, beautiful, naked man walked into the room. And I was like, what in the hell?

Amanda Wray:

Good morning.

Michael Todd:

You know? And he's like, "There's a piano in here. There's books all over the wall." And I'm like, here's this naked man. I just remember his beautiful butt. Wow. Long hair, and gentle smile, and spirit. I'm like, oh my God. Where the 00:09:00hell am I?

Michael Todd:

Then as I entered out into the breakfast and there were all kinds of beautiful men in dresses, or nothing, and long hair. I'm like, oh my God I have woken up and found my tribe. And then as I found out more and more, it was my tribe. And has been my tribe ever since.

Michael Todd:

Hence, all of these photos on my wall are photos from Short Mountain where I was very connected for many years. And I'll maybe talk about a little bit of the decline of that. I'm not disconnected, but I'm not nearly as connected as I was at one point.

Amanda Wray:

I do want to talk about that. We're there let's talk.

Michael Todd:

Lets talk about it.

Amanda Wray:

Radical Faeries, what do people think that means? And what did that come to mean to you?

Michael Todd:

So Radical Faeries is a group. It kind of started ... In general, you'd say it's gay hippie men. It actually started many years ago with a mover and shaker in 00:10:00the early what they call the Homofile Movement. Harry Hay, he was a socialist. Actually he was lovers with Grandpa Walton from the Waltons. Many people didn't know. I can't remember his name, Will something. I don't know.

Amanda Wray:

Grandpa.

Michael Todd:

Grandpa Walton. They were lovers.

Amanda Wray:

My dad would be interested to know that. He likes to watch the Waltons.

Michael Todd:

Yeah. Well, Harry Hay believed that gay people were a third gender. They were neither male nor female. But they were a third gender. And he would give an example, which I actually experienced myself as a kid when the boys would call me a girl. And the girls were like, "He's not a girl. He's a sissy."

Michael Todd:

So, didn't fit in with the boys and didn't fit in with the girls. So they believed that they were a third gender. He did a lot of Native American studies in other cultures where queer people were seen as Shamans, and we were queer for 00:11:00a purpose, and that we were healers of the world, the people. He really went as that model and he spearheaded along with others.

Michael Todd:

He said, what would happen if we took a lot of gay men ... There's a problem with Harry Hay. I'm going to talk about that too. He did not include women. Today's, Radical Faeries definitely do include women, and I actually think I am part of that movement of turning that tide.

Michael Todd:

But he did not include women. He wanted to have gay men only, in the woods with nothing else around. And he said, "I wonder what would happen if our true spiritual nature would come forth?" And it did. There's actually lots written on that now. Actually I have some of the books here, The Problem With Harry Hay.

Michael Todd:

They would say, the problem with Harry Hay was he was a socialist. Although, he 00:12:00was the founder of the modern gay movement in America, he was very quickly ostracized from that group because of his socialist ties because that was back in the McCarthy era.

Michael Todd:

Even though he founded, and he actually got the status as a minority, he was instrumentally getting that. But then the old gay movement kind of went more what we would call hetero imitative. And not really seeing what queer men amongst themselves.

Michael Todd:

Anyway, kind of lost my train of thought a little bit there. Yeah, Radical Faeries. When I showed up I was like, whoa, there's a lot of vegetarian, hippie, 00:13:00gay men who like to be in the woods. I totally connected with that group.

Amanda Wray:

It sounds so healthy.

Michael Todd:

It was lovely. It truly changed my life. Actually, when I left there I changed my career. I changed probably most everything about myself changed when I left there the first time. I had worked for the Department of Social Services, with children and adolescents.

Michael Todd:

That had been my social work career. When I came back I'm like, I'm dedicating myself to queer folk. And so I immediately got a job in the AIDS field. Yeah, that's what Radical Faerie meant.

Michael Todd:

You know, Radical Faeries on purpose are hard to define. Matter of fact, they do 00:14:00not want to be defined and that's part of it. But you know, we all have some labels so we had to give some labels just to understand.

Michael Todd:

My first label was vegetarian gay hippies. But they're definitely a lot more than that. And not everybody is vegetarian. That was actually a big wake up like, whoa, you're a Radical Faerie and you eat meat? So the Radical Faerie movement is just as diverse as any other.

Amanda Wray:

So there are other communes across the country?

Michael Todd:

Oh yes. All across the world.

Amanda Wray:

Wow.

Michael Todd:

Yes, there's a big one out in ... What's the one out there? We're all connected. I can't call the Wolf Creek is up in Northern California. What's the one in the desert? I can't remember the name.

Amanda Wray:

Have you been to any of the others?

Michael Todd:

I have not been to the others. I've communed with people from the others. There's actually a magazine, which I actually have a whole archive of that's 00:15:00called RFD. Well, RFD meant something. Every quarter when the magazine came out it meant something different.

Michael Todd:

That's the other thing, one of the true things about Radical Faeries all the way through, they are very tongue in cheek, very much in making fun of everything including themselves the most. A very witty group.

Michael Todd:

So RFD stood for something different every time the magazine was published. But the first thing it stood for was Radical Faerie Digest. But it also had another meaning. That's another thing about Radical Faeries, multiple meanings in anything. It's the old postal thing, RFD meant rural because the faeries were very, very into rural.

Michael Todd:

Now there are city Radical Faeries all over the place. They all came to Short Mountain twice a year, which they still do. May 1st the show up in hundreds, and 00:16:00hundreds, and hundreds. And in the last weekend in September they show up in hundreds. They're called Gatherings.

Amanda Wray:

Like reunions? Is it the same people?

Michael Todd:

We call them gatherings. But reunions are different people come, and you hear some of the same stories. When the new people come every time, they're like, "Oh my God my world has just changed." Which is exactly what I went through. But then there are people who have been coming for years, and years that still come.

Michael Todd:

I haven't been now in about four years. The Faerie movement is going through some changes. And some of those changes I felt like I kind of needed to remove myself from a little bit. Some of that is the amount of drugs that are being used, and the new drugs that have come on. That has been the place where I have 00:17:00had my experience with psychedelics. It's usually part of the gatherings. Not that everybody does it but they are a major part of the gatherings.

Michael Todd:

You know, mushrooms, and LSD has always been a part of it. But then when some of the more hardcore, what do you call them? Bar drugs were coming in that were more dangerous. And Meth started hitting, not in a big way but in a big enough way that it was getting scary.

Michael Todd:

There were a couple of folks who actually died of overdoses at the gathering. So the Faeries, especially in this community in Tennessee really needed to do some introspection. Also, I'm getting older and it's harder to camp. You know, because you really have to haul your stuff in. You haul your stuff out. That's harder.

Amanda Wray:

This might be a good time to ask you to tell me how old you are if you want to share that information.

Michael Todd:

Sure. I don't care. I am 57.

Amanda Wray:

When's your birthday?

Michael Todd:

I'll be 58 in September. September 30th I'll be 58.

Amanda Wray:

There were lots of things I want to ask.

Michael Todd:

I'm sure.

Amanda Wray:

Let's see which one I want to go to first.

Michael Todd:

Let me tell you how I got to the mountain because that's something.

Amanda Wray:

Okay, please do.

Michael Todd:

I came out in Florida at college. God there's so many places I could start.

Amanda Wray:

Because coming out isn't a one day process right?

Michael Todd:

Yeah. So let me just back up and tell you. I actually had two coming outs. I came out in Durham when I was about 18. I had been involved with the church. I did not grow up in a religious family at all. I won't say at all. My grandmother was religious and I think either her father or her grandfather was a minister. 00:19:00But she was the only religious person in my family.

Michael Todd:

My parents were not religious. To this day they're not, so I wasn't brought up very heavily religious. I had some Mormons that were neighbors, and so they took me to church with them. The Church Of Jesus Of Latter Day Saints. I had a spiritual understanding through the neighbors. Because they were Mormon they were cliquey and stayed together, so I liked that sense of community that, that offered.

Michael Todd:

Then I pretty quickly knew that I was gay. And that was not something that I wanted at all. My youngest when it came to me I was probably prepubescent and I knew that I had an attraction to other guys.

Michael Todd:

At one point I remember thinking that I was half male and half female. I truly 00:20:00believed that my breasts were going to grow like a woman's. I knew I had a penis. I loved my penis. That was not a problem for me.

Michael Todd:

But now looking back I was probably going into puberty and men have the little tenderness in their breasts. But I didn't know that. No one ever told me that. So I thought my breasts were going to grow.

Michael Todd:

I actually remember telling my best friend. I was at a movie theater, and I said, "I've got a secret to tell you and you can't tell anyone." I said, "I'm growing breasts. And I think I am half man and half woman." He went immediately to school and told everybody. So that was horrible.

Amanda Wray:

How old were you then?

Michael Todd:

I was definitely prepubescent but probably on the edge of it.

Amanda Wray:

So middle school range?

Michael Todd:

Like 12, 11, 12. I was a late bloomer. Yes, I would say middle school because 00:21:00that was hard. Middle school was a torturous time for me.

Amanda Wray:

What was it like to go to school then? What did people say after that?

Michael Todd:

That was horrible. That was when bullying started to really kind of happen. It always happened a bit. I remember sixth grade being bullied a lot. And usually by the same bunch of guys. I would love to go back now and know what I know now.

Michael Todd:

They would be the ones probably trying to get blow jobs in the bathroom or something. Anyway, it was a horrible, horrible ... I was an effeminate kid. I was skinny, and small. Yeah that was not a good time in my life.

Amanda Wray:

Did you feel like you could go home and talk to somebody about that stuff?

Michael Todd:

No, absolutely not at all. Just the opposite. I felt like I needed to hide that from my family. My dads things when he would hear about the bullying, he's like, 00:22:00"You've got to fight them." Well, I was scared to death to fight them. I wasn't going to. I would lose and get hurt. I would keep that a secret so that I wouldn't be pushed to respond.

Michael Todd:

Really the bus rides were the hardest. Those were horrible. Anyway, I gravitated to religion on my own. As I look back now I feel like it was really driven by my sexuality. And I felt like that was so big, I needed something bigger than sexuality. And the only thing that I knew of that would be bigger than my sexuality, would be God that could take that away.

Michael Todd:

I kind of gravitated toward religion on my own. Got involved with the church. This was probably high school at this point. Even at that point I had started to 00:23:00use drugs. Mainly smoke pot, a little bit of LSD. Nothing chronic.

Michael Todd:

I was friends with this one guy who got saved. And then looking back, I was madly in love with him. And he was my first crush. I didn't even know that at the time but I knew that I loved him. He was definitely not gay. But I think I was like someone that he could talk to Jesus about.

Michael Todd:

Anyway, we started going to church, blah, blah, blah. Then I came out. I was 18. I remember walking. I had a girlfriend. The first girl I ever had sex with at 16. So I was probably 17. No, because I had to be old enough to get into the gay bar. I was 18.

Michael Todd:

I was walking up to a youth group thing at somebody's house at the church. And I heard a couple of the guys call me, "Faggot." And I remember thinking, "You know what? They're probably right. Everybody my whole life has called me a faggot. I really must be one. And so I might as well just embrace that."

Michael Todd:

It was at that time I remember, I was walking with Peggy. I turned around and I said goodbye. And I got in my car. And I went to the gay bar. And went in to the gay bar for the first time. And the only reason I knew about the gay bar is I had volunteered at this call center.

Michael Todd:

It was called Hassle House. Run by some students at Duke University. And I was a volunteer. And there was this drag queen that called on a regular basis. She had a horrible relationship with her father who was a horrible alcoholic. And Darlene Duncan was her drag name.

Michael Todd:

I probably shouldn't use her name since I'm saying that she called the Hassle House. I don't know if she's even still alive. But she told me all about the gay bar or I wouldn't have known about it. And she's like, "That's where I go to be with my people. And I can be a woman there. And blah, blah, blah."

Michael Todd:

Of course, she told me where it was. And you know, obviously in hindsight I was now getting just as much information from her as she I was helping her deal with her issues with her family. So I knew where to go. And I walked in the gay bar. I was young and cute.

Michael Todd:

I remember when I walked in I just left a place where someone called me a faggot. And I walked into the thing, and I heard one of the guys behind the thing, "Oh my God let him in. He is cute." And I'm like this is where I'm going to be.

Michael Todd:

I basically bolted out of the closet and moved in within a week to what we call the Homo Hilton, which was the guy who owned the bar, and a lot of the employees. And the whole world opened up to me.

Michael Todd:

I got a boyfriend immediately right away in the home. That's how I moved into the home. He taught me gay lingo. He taught me about the language, how to dress. And a whole world opened up. I didn't know that gay people had a language of their own.

Amanda Wray:

Just a logistics question. You moved out? Where were you living before you moved in?

Michael Todd:

I had moved into a ratty old house by myself.

Amanda Wray:

But still in Durham?

Michael Todd:

It was in Durham. Yes, my dad had told me that his job was to get me through high school. And that as soon as I graduated high school, I could go and do anything I wanted to, and he would not interfere. And that has been true ever since. He has lived up to that to this day.

Michael Todd:

It was actually about two months before I graduated, I was 17. I said, "Dad I've got an old place I can rent." It was an old home out in the country. And he 00:27:00says, "If you promise me that you will finish high school, you can go ahead and move into that house." And I said, "Well dad I've only got two months left. I'm not going to quit at this point." So I moved into the house. That's where I was living when I came out.

Amanda Wray:

And you made money. How did you make money?

Michael Todd:

I worked at a convenience store.

Amanda Wray:

Oh.

Michael Todd:

The house was on the same property as the convenience store. That's how I knew about the house. So I lived at the house and worked at the convenience store.

Amanda Wray:

All right. Let's go back to your first gay bar experience.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, oh my God.

Amanda Wray:

That just seems so courageous to identify, and then be like, all right I'm going to drop my girlfriend off and I'm just going to drive right on over there. When you were talking to Darlene on the phone, why do you think that she gave you this information?

Michael Todd:

You know, I don't think that she gave it to me with any intent.

Amanda Wray:

Did you ever meet her?

Michael Todd:

She was one of the first people I met. I don't know that I ever told that, that 00:28:00was me. I can't imagine that I didn't. Because Darlene and I ended up sleeping together several times. Yeah, she was one of the first people I met when I went in.

Michael Todd:

I think I had been two or three times in the parking lot before I actually went in. And sat out there and watched people go in.

Amanda Wray:

By yourself?

Michael Todd:

Yes. I actually had forgotten about that until you just asked me about the courageousness. Because I was thinking, why would I just park and go in? I had parked a couple times and watched. I was obviously toying with the idea.

Amanda Wray:

What about that space?

Michael Todd:

So I never went back to church. Well, I won't say never. I went back maybe a year later with a fellow who was a ministerial major at Duke University. And we just went just to see it really. No, I left that whole community right away. 00:29:00That was a little disappointing thing. I was kind of disappointed that they didn't come after me, and come and try to get me to come back. They really just let me go.

Amanda Wray:

What was your experience like? This is at the Mormon church?

Michael Todd:

No, this was Mormon. This was Baptist.

Amanda Wray:

Oh okay.

Michael Todd:

Yeah. The Mormon church was really just kind of my-

Amanda Wray:

Introduction.

Michael Todd:

Introduction into a religious kind of world. This was a Baptist church.

Amanda Wray:

When you fell away, no one contacted you?

Michael Todd:

No. Not really. You know, they heard really quickly that I was gay, which I don't think really surprised anyone.

Amanda Wray:

But Durham doesn't seem so small.

Michael Todd:

They outed me to my mother, which again I thought was very interesting.

Amanda Wray:

So give me the timeline. How did that work?

Michael Todd:

I came out, moved into the Homo Hilton.

Amanda Wray:

That's so funny.

Michael Todd:

my whole world became this gay nightlife. It probably wasn't a month, maybe two, 00:30:00one of my "friends" from the church called my mother and said, "Just to let you know Michael's gay" and blah, blah, blah. Mom either called me, or I called her and she asked me about it. And I told her, I was. And she cried.

Michael Todd:

You know, I had that typical probably parent experience. You know, what did I do wrong? How can you do this to me? Blah, blah, blah. I think I gave typical responses back. "Mom, it had nothing to do with you at all. I've always been gay." In later years, mom actually told me, she goes, "Yes I knew you were gay when you were a little kid. I knew that."

Michael Todd:

Then we actually ended up having a really good relationship, strong relationship probably because I was her gay child so we had a different ... She didn't raise 00:31:00me, so we really didn't have that mom, son type of relationship anyway. And so, then becoming gay even took it away from that. I was almost more of a peer to her than her child.

Amanda Wray:

How old was your mom when you were born?

Michael Todd:

My mom was pregnant with me when she was in high school. She used to joke that I was smart because I went through high school twice. First with her in her belly.

Amanda Wray:

That's funny.

Michael Todd:

My mom she had me when she had just turned 20. Got pregnant with me when she was 18.

Amanda Wray:

Did your folks live together?

Michael Todd:

Yes, they were married. They got married before she got pregnant. They got married very young. My dads 20 years older than me, and my moms 19 years older than me. That's right.

Amanda Wray:

Do they still live together right now?

Michael Todd:

No, they got divorced when I was in the fifth grade.

Amanda Wray:

Okay.

Michael Todd:

Yep. Moms been married a couple other times. And my dads been married another time. And they're both divorced now and single.

Amanda Wray:

All right. So you said, "I bolted out of the closet."

Michael Todd:

Yes, I did. I bolted out of the closet. My first stint at the gay bar I just kind of stayed there. I started working there.

Amanda Wray:

I was going to say, tell me about the early days.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, so I worked at the gay bar.

Amanda Wray:

Oh nice.

Michael Todd:

My boyfriend was the DJ.

Amanda Wray:

So you gave up your convenience store job?

Michael Todd:

I gave up my convenience store job, did lights at the disco tech. What was that place called? Oh my God. I can't remember the name of it. That's unbelievable that I can't remember the name of it now.

Amanda Wray:

Was there just the one?

Michael Todd:

No. Well, yes, there was one in Durham. It used to be called Christopher Street. And then this one opened up, same owner. Yeah, so I did the lights up above the stage. And this of course was 1979. So I remember being there when 1980 came on. 00:33:00So I lived a little bit there through the 1980s. That's when I really got into drugs. MDA, cocaine definitely, a little heroin.

Michael Todd:

I used intravenously. So it was the funnest times. Quaalude's, oh my God Quaalude's were a big deal back then because I remember being so fucked up on Quaalude's and then putting crystal meth in my mouth so I've definitely lived on the corner.

Michael Todd:

This was not a lot of time, but a short period of time in the glamor of the disco tech. I just watched a documentary on Studio 54. And I'm like I was never at Studio 54 but I lived a pinch of that.

Michael Todd:

Actually I had a drug overdose on cocaine and heroin, which scared me. I had a 00:34:00pretty scary vision. God, I haven't thought about this in years now that I'm thinking of it. There was this particular fellow that we shot up together. He worked at a hair salon. He's dead now. His name was Maurice. He had the money because he ran his hair salon.

Michael Todd:

I actually worked for him at his hair salon too. Oh my God that was fun times. I would be doing coke in the backroom. And then going out and doing hair. I worked at the hair school so I never finished, because I ended up having the overdose before I finished. And then when I had that overdose I had the vision that if I ever shot up again that I would die, and go to hell.

Michael Todd:

Then I went into a whole hallucinogenic trip of hell. I hadn't thought about 00:35:00this in years either but, I remember hell being forever alone in darkness falling. And I could hear other people around me screaming but I had no contact. And forever I was going to be floating in this darkness alone. And I've never shot up since then, ever.

Michael Todd:

I actually reached out, he was my youth pastor at the Baptist church. And he came and got me, and found a rehab. It was a very Christian rehab called, Teen Challenge. First he took me to a place in West Virginia that was an anti gay place. They took homosexual boys and helped them not be that way.

Michael Todd:

That was actually a beautiful, loving experience. It was in the mountains of 00:36:00West Virginia. That was when I fell in love with mountains. I'm like, there's no place more beautiful in the world to me than mountains. They were very sweet.

Michael Todd:

I met some guys who used to be gay that weren't. I remember even thinking then, I think you still are. But I know what you're trying to do, and I want to do that as well. That went on into my trying to not be gay.

Michael Todd:

Then I went into this drug rehab that was Teen Challenge. They're still around. Very, very, very strict. I was in the induction center for three months. My dad was actually very proud of me. My dad was incredibly supportive. My dad and I had never talked about the gay thing. I'll get to the point when we actually did. And we still really haven't, but the one time we have.

Michael Todd:

I went into this rehab three months. It was in, not Saluda, Selma. Not, Selma. I can't remember the town. But a little small place in North Carolina. Then I went to the big training center that was in Raresburgh, Pennsylvania.

Michael Todd:

The rehabs were started, there's an old book called, The Cross and Switch Blade. What was his name? I can't remember. David Wilkerson or something like that. He started these places. So I went there mainly because of the drugs. But it was also about they spent a lot of time focusing on the homosexual issue as well.

Michael Todd:

I was in the induction center with 235 men so obviously that was a kid in a candy store because there were no women around so these were a lot of Puerto Rican guys from New York City, all from all over but a lot of Puerto Rican from 00:38:00New York City. I learned really quickly that they could be straight but they certainly liked having the gay boys around.

Michael Todd:

I had some certainly gay experiences there that was found out about. So then they sent me to this really hardcore induction center in Pennsylvania. It's in Philadelphia. I was there for a month, and that was with the purpose of getting the homosexuality out of me.

Michael Todd:

Every morning you had to get up at 6:30. You had to pray for a while. And you would kneel and pray. And then you had to pray out loud because they didn't want you to fall asleep. And the staff would walk around with yard sticks.

Michael Todd:

If you weren't praying they would smack you over the back. And you had to memorize three or four scriptures a day. And then be able to quote them at the 00:39:00end of the month. They shaved my head because they were like we find too much joy in your hair. They made me sit like a man. They made me lift weights.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, that was a hardcore experience. That was the first time my dad and I ever spoke about the whole gay thing because when I called him and said, "I am in Philadelphia. And I've been sent here because I had a gay incident." Or something.

Michael Todd:

He said, "Are you there because of the gay thing?" And I said, "Yes." And I said, "I want to leave. I don't like it here. I think I'm being mistreated." And he actually asked me to stay. He said, "I want you to go through this." So I did. I stayed.

Michael Todd:

I remember when I got back to the training center, the first thing they asked 00:40:00me, and this is going to sound sad but it's not as bad now. They asked me what I learned. And I said, "The number one thing I learned over the last 30 days was how to hate. I don't think I ever had been in touch with hate before. And I learned how to hate." And I got very in touch with that emotion. And that's what I learned there. I finished the program.

Amanda Wray:

You were hold old when you finished?

Michael Todd:

I was probably 20. I was there for a year and a half so I was right at 20. Fell in love with a guy there. He fell in love with me as well. We never acted on it. Later we got together. Anyway, I finished the program.

Michael Todd:

That's when I realized I was college material. And they helped me get to college. Although I finished high school, I did horrible. I got a lot of D's and just didn't do well. They got me into a very fundamentalist college. It was 00:41:00called Southeastern College of The Assemblies of God.

Michael Todd:

They took me for the first year as a trial because I didn't have the grades to get in. But I finished my first year with a 4.0. I actually ended up graduating. I was the first person in my entire family to go to college.

Michael Todd:

At one point during the college experience, when I became a non believer, I would have left. But I didn't even know that you could transfer colleges. I didn't think that was something that you could do because I didn't come from anyone who knew anything about family.

Michael Todd:

I graduated. I started with a ministerial degree because I was into that. But I finished with a degree in psychology. So I have a double major, Theology/Psychology because they started a psychology program when I was there.

Michael Todd:

Also, I feel like I had two born again experiences. You know, the born again 00:42:00experience when I became a Christian, actually a couple times in the rehab. And then when I was in college, and I remember just saying, you know what? This doesn't fit with me. I do not believe in God. I just don't believe in God. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Michael Todd:

I have a whole story about how that took place in my head. But I remember having that same euphoric feeling of, I was born again but in the opposite direction. Like, I was born to not have to feel like I believed. And I didn't believe in hell anymore so I didn't have any fear of things. But I still did not want to be gay. I didn't feel like I had anything in common with gay people.

Michael Todd:

I didn't have the perfect hair. I didn't have the perfect body. I didn't wear perfume. I'm not very fashionable. So the short time that I was out in the gay 00:43:00bar, that's what being gay became to me, and a lot of sex. I didn't want to be gay, so I got married to a woman twice my age, older than my parents. Still, in touch with her today.

Michael Todd:

There's a whole piece I left out from that. When I was in college, I joined my first commune. And it was a Christian commune called Genesis 2. I have pictures of all of this stuff by the way. Actually, if I pull out my picture, I have a room of all these pictures.

Amanda Wray:

You should. We should. Next time let's do it.

Michael Todd:

It would bring up so much stories.

Amanda Wray:

That's a great idea.

Michael Todd:

I did that when I was cleaning it up. And I was like all these stories came back to me that I'd forgotten. But anyway, I joined this commune. Betty Anne was in this commune. Then it became apparent that it was getting a weird commune because they wanted me to quit school.

Amanda Wray:

You were in a religious school though.

Michael Todd:

I was in a religious school but they wanted me to quit that one because it was too liberal. And mind you, this was The Assemblies Of God, which is not liberal. We could not wear shorts on campus in Florida. Shorts were not allowed.

Michael Todd:

The year I got there, it was the first year women could wear pants. I mean, that's how strict this school was. And this commune was going even stricter. It was getting weird. So actually, Betty Anne was the first one to say, "Michael you need to get out of this commune." And then, what happened was-

Amanda Wray:

Betty Anne was your wife?

Michael Todd:

Well, ended up being my wife. This is the part that I did not expect to tell but I think I'll tell it. I actually started developing feelings for someone who was underage. Mind you, I was only like 20 myself. This commune took care of a neighborhood. It was a very poor neighborhood. And my job was to keep the food 00:45:00pantry and cook, so I cooked for anyone who wanted to come and eat. Any night we had dinner people could come.

Amanda Wray:

Did you enjoy cooking?

Michael Todd:

I loved that. I loved it. We did great things for the neighborhood. Part of our crew we repaired leaky roofs, put wheelchair ramps in. I mean we really did do the whole ministry thing. We were very based off of the Jesus People USA. Have you ever heard of them JPUSA? Kind of hippie Christians. They're still going on to Chicago, Jesus People USA.

Michael Todd:

Rock N Roll music, we played Rock N Roll music at the church. You were shorts to church. It was a great thing. We actually took a school bus during one Christmas 00:46:00break and painted it up with Jesus rules, all this kind of stuff.

Michael Todd:

We went to Mexico to take vitamins, and food to people who were in prison, and minister down there. It was interesting, all this time this was happening, things kept coming to me. This is when I was a believer that was saying, Michael ... I kept even thinking God's putting messages.

Michael Todd:

For example, we went on this big trip down to Mexico. I was put in a room with another gay guy who was struggling with it. So we talked about it. And stuff like that kept happening. And I kept thinking, "God's telling me it's okay to be gay. He made me this way. That it's okay." Obviously that was a big conflict.

Michael Todd:

There were several people in the commune that were also same boat I was in. I'm probably getting the timeline mixed up a little bit. Anyway, I came back. One of 00:47:00the families that I was working with in this commune, there was a kid. He was probably 16.

Michael Todd:

Oh my God, I just loved him. And he would come over. He would spend the night with me because his home life was horrible. We would sleep in the same bed, never, ever any sexual activity. But I realized I was having feelings. I don't know that I was having sexual feelings. I loved him.

Amanda Wray:

[inaudible] for him.

Michael Todd:

I didn't know what to do with that. Again, like I said, it was never a sexual thing. He was not a gay kid. But I remember we would be in the bed and I would be laying next to him, and I'm like, I love him. I love him. This is wrong. I'm sick. This is horrible.

Michael Todd:

I attempted to take my life with an overdose of pills and ended up in the 00:48:00hospital. It was through the hospital experience, which was interesting. Talking about being gay in the South.

Michael Todd:

I ended up in the ED, pumped my stomach. Put me on the psych unit. Woke up the next day. I was actually very peaceful contemplating time. I remember sitting in the window and just looking out and trying to make heads and tails of all this.

Michael Todd:

Then I went to go see the psychiatrist. And he says, "Tell me why you're here." And I said, "I'm gay and I don't want to be. And I just don't know how to shake it. And I don't think I can."

Michael Todd:

And what he told me was, "Move to New York City. Just accept it and move to a city where there's a lot of gay people. And you'll be okay." And he sent me out. I was there one night. I remember walking back to the commune, and then the 00:49:00elders wanted to meet with me. I forgot, there was something really weird around that. That it was all this stuff now that I was going to need to do because I had this suicide attempt.

Michael Todd:

I remember Betty Anne came and she says, "Michael this is bullshit. It's a cult. Get out of here. And I'm going to leave too. Let's go." And we did. We left. I don't even remember exactly what we did at this point. But I left the commune.

Michael Todd:

Oh, I went back to Southeastern College. I had left there to move into the commune. I was still going to school. But I had left campus and I moved back to the campus. And then Betty Anne and I ended up having an affair. And she was married for 23 years. She was in this very, very unhappy marriage. We started sleeping together. And she knew that I was gay.

Michael Todd:

I used to say, "I'm gay." I put gay as being an alcoholic. Once an alcoholic, you're always an alcoholic. But you don't have to drink. And so that was how I was. I was gay. I was always going to be gay, but I wasn't going to sleep with men. And I wasn't sleeping with men.

Michael Todd:

So Betty Anne and I started sleeping together. Actually, we cheated on her husband together. Actually I have a story where we were actually in bed one time when he came home. And I had to go up under the bed until she got him out of the house. So I was up under their bed while he was in the house. That was scary.

Amanda Wray:

Super stressful.

Michael Todd:

I actually have a picture of what was going on just before that. It was in her bathtub. So there's a picture of me in her bathtub. And just before he came home. But anyway, that was a story I didn't know I'd share either.

Amanda Wray:

Y'all got married.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, I got married.

Amanda Wray:

How long did you all live together?

Michael Todd:

We were together for five years. We weren't married that whole time. But in the marriage is when I realized that number one, I didn't believe in God anymore. And number two, that I was gay and I was going to be gay. And that's when I connected back with Tom who I fell in love with at the rehab. I called Tom.

Michael Todd:

I remember I was sitting in a swing set in a park. And that's where I just kind of like, Michael you're gay. And it's okay. It's okay. The bad things, you don't like gay people. But you're gay. I remember thinking, have I ever experienced love?

Michael Todd:

And I'm like, "Yes I loved Tom." I loved him without any doubt. I said, "I'm going to reach out to Tom. And I'm going to see what's going on with Tom." I called him, and he had just gotten out of the hospital from a drug overdose, and 00:52:00had Hepatitis.

Michael Todd:

One other thing happened, and this is the part that I'm not sure that I want to be shared.

Amanda Wray:

Michael Todd:

And he [Tom] says, "I've got to get out of Pennsylvania." Because that's where he was from. Or, "I'm going to end up killing myself with drugs." And I said, "I'm on my way to get you."

Michael Todd:

So, I left Betty Anne, got in my truck, went and told Betty Anne I was going to leave, and that I was going to get Tom. And that we were going to live together. And of course she was devastated. But that's exactly what I did.

Michael Todd:

I got in my truck, and I went up, and I picked up Tom. We stopped by my dad's house. It's so funny because dad and I have never talked about it, but he's been so involved in my gay little life. A friend we met at my dad's house, a friend that we had together brought Tom to Durham. I went to Durham. I picked Tom up. We put all his stuff in the back of my truck.

Michael Todd:

Meanwhile, I had rented an apartment for us. And when I pulled in, Tom and I 00:53:00moved into that apartment. I had not even lived there. I had just rented it. And I left Betty Anne and lived with Tom.

Amanda Wray:

Were you honest with her?

Michael Todd:

Oh yes. I've never not been honest.

Amanda Wray:

But y'all still talk.

Michael Todd:

We still talk. Her Christmas card that she sent me is on my counter because I need to write her back. She sends me a Christmas card and then I write her a letter back. She's a wonderful woman. I've got pictures of our wedding too. We had a quite good time.

Michael Todd:

Now Tom, was not gay. That was the interesting thing. Now we did have a sexual relationship. He was probably somewhat BI. But then he ended up seeing a woman and becoming in a relationship with her. So then we split up.

Amanda Wray:

How long did that take?

Michael Todd:

Maybe a year. Maybe a year, something like that. It was someone that he worked with. I knew it was happening. Again, we were very honest. And he told me he was falling in love with her. What did I do? I don't remember at this point.

Amanda Wray:

Where was your apartment?

Michael Todd:

It was on this lake. Betty Anne lived on one part of the lake.

Amanda Wray:

So you were still in Florida?

Michael Todd:

Yeah. And I lived on the other part of the lake. I missed her terribly. I remember many times I would go, and it would be dark, and I would sit outside the house and I could see her in with all of our friends. And I remember really missing that.

Michael Todd:

I know what happened now. I got connected with the Metropolitan Community 00:55:00Church. That was the gay church. And I remember saying, "I don't believe in God but I need a community of people." So I went to the Metropolitan Community Church. Involved with that group for two or three years. That was really a wonderful time.

Michael Todd:

That's when I met my first lesbians who actually I will now say shaped much of who I am. Very big activists. And I moved in with a group of lesbians. That's where I became a feminist, or even understood feminist ways, and thought.

Michael Todd:

Then I met a fellow in a church. And he was a Christian. I was not. But I don't know whether we fell in love or not. He definitely fell in love with me. I 00:56:00certainly loved him. Right after we started dating, he got diagnosed with full blow AIDS.

Michael Todd:

He was a Christian boy so he just wanted to be married. And so, we married. Of course, it wasn't legal back then. But we married in a church, in Unitarian Universalist Church. I still have our wedding thing upstairs, in that tall boy up there. We got married and then he lived about two years after that.

Michael Todd:

Then it was his death ... I was working for the State Of Florida. And when he died I wanted to take some leave, not a long leave. Just regular funeral leave. They would not grant it because I was not recognized.

Michael Todd:

He was not recognized as my husband, which legally he was not. And then, it 00:57:00wasn't recognized that we were partners. I was in touch with that angry part, living with feminists. So that's when my activism was born.

Amanda Wray:

And that's in like 1990 when?

Michael Todd:

Yes. Early 1990s. When he died is when I discovered the Faeries. That's when I knew someone who was also connected with the church. And he says, "Michael I go to this Radical Faerie gathering up in the hills of Tennessee."

Michael Todd:

I was angry. And I was worn out. And I was grieving. I remember thinking, that's really weird. But I'm going to go because I want to be in the woods. And I need 00:58:00to be in the woods. So that's when I went. And I already told you about my first morning there.

Amanda Wray:

In this period of Florida, did you still have this feeling of, I just don't really like gay people?

Michael Todd:

Right.

Amanda Wray:

Did you start to find your-

Michael Todd:

When I went to Tennessee is when I was like, "This is my gay people."

Amanda Wray:

Oh gotcha.

Michael Todd:

I do like these people. This is me. This is my tribe. And that's probably why I connected so fast, and so hard. Although most people connect fast and hard.

Amanda Wray:

Fast and hard.

Michael Todd:

So it's not unique to me. But I think it's because I didn't relate with other gay men. Even through the whole church thing of the gay church, there was a lot of gay men. And they were my friends but I knew that I was different. That there was something different from me and them.

Michael Todd:

We had a lot of fun together, but we were different. And when I found the Faeries, that was when, I'm like these people and these people are like me. And 00:59:00that's why it took root so fast and it just changed everything.

Amanda Wray:

Can you tell me what is the difference?

Michael Todd:

Between?

Amanda Wray:

You said, "I'm just different from them."

Michael Todd:

I didn't care about the whole fashion, cologne, hair.

Amanda Wray:

Okay.

Michael Todd:

Just even from a physical presence I was different. But definitely from a spiritual. You know, connected with the earth, that's really when I learned that I am very pagan. I didn't even know what pagan was. But I'm connected to the earth.

Michael Todd:

All of my spirituality was really earth centered. I'd never even heard that language. I just knew that when I came in contact with a waterfall, or a tree, or a rock, or a bird, that moved me in ways that people I hung with did not 01:00:00move, it didn't move them.

Amanda Wray:

I call in Churching. Like when you go hiking.

Michael Todd:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

We're going churching.

Michael Todd:

That's what I call it now. On Easter I go for a hike, and I'm like, "I'm going to church." I'm going out. Actually certain places I go. Yeah, it was really that spiritual. And even from a physical all the way to the spiritual it was just very, very, very different.

Michael Todd:

Sexuality was just even different. The way I ate was different than other gay people. I'm not now, but I was a vegetarian. I was in Florida. I knew no other vegetarians. Actually that was one of my deciding factors to come to Asheville because it was vegetarian friendly, and I didn't have that.

Michael Todd:

But now I was in the woods with all these beautiful long haired, vegetarian, 01:01:00hippie, queers. There was just this connection. So I moved there.

Amanda Wray:

And you were there for how long?

Michael Todd:

I was there for a year. There was a new community started, IDA. And I'd been going 15 years maybe. And I went to every gathering. I didn't miss a single gathering for many, many years. At least 10.

Amanda Wray:

So you went from Florida.

Michael Todd:

I lived in Florida for 12. And for many years I traveled to the gatherings every May, every September. Then, after I left my first gathering that's when I left my job with the state. And I went to work for Tampa AIDS Network. Because I'm like, I'm going to work for my people.

Amanda Wray:

And you said the lesbians were formative in some of that to?

Michael Todd:

They were formative.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me what you meant by that.

Michael Todd:

That was probably the richest part of my life to this date.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me. You said that shaped who you were.

Michael Todd:

Yes.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me what you mean by that. I have like 45 other questions I want to ask too.

Michael Todd:

I know you do [inaudible] one time.

Amanda Wray:

We never ever.

Michael Todd:

I learned about rights, and standing up. I don't even know what patriarchy was. I didn't know what any of this was. But here I was, a gay guy, partner just died of AIDS. I'm positive. I'm working a world where everyone's dying. The bad part is I became incredibly, incredibly, incredibly angry. But I was motivated. By God, was I motivated.

Michael Todd:

I was in Act UP. I was in Queer, what's it called? I can't remember the things of it now. I've got newspaper articles I can pull out where I'm facing off with the KKK. You know, I really got into activism. We did a lot of Act UP Stuff.

Michael Todd:

I was involved in the normal stuff that you've heard of about Act UP now. You know, going to school boards, chaining myself to stuff. I was arrested for shouting down Vice President Dan Quayle when he came to a Baptist church in Lakeland, Florida. And the lesbians taught me all this.

Michael Todd:

I went to the March On Washington with a group of lesbians. That's when I even learned about ... Then Harry Hay came in because I found the Faeries. And a lot of the Faeries are very much into activism. And it fed me very well.

Michael Todd:

But the activism with the Faeries is fun, and it's in your face. And its tongue in cheek. And here's a very example. I say this boastfully. It's sounds boastful but it's interesting. This comes up all the time. I hear it at least two or 01:04:00three times a year. My most famous one in Asheville. The KKK came to Asheville. This is a very Faerie way of how to do activism.

Michael Todd:

Of course, Asheville community came together and were like, "Let's ignore them. Let's ignore them. Let's do something over here. But I knew that wasn't going to happen because people are going to want to get in the face of the KKK. So I'm like, "All right let's do this fun."

Michael Todd:

So I put on a one piece bathing suit, high heel shoes, which I have pictures of all this. And put a big sash that said, "Miss Mary KKK." And I had this white powder. I was the head of their parade.

Michael Todd:

I got in front of the KKK rally as Miss Mary KKK. And I was going up to people pushing white powder. Instead of white power, white powder. It was hilarious. That was fun. That's a very Radical Faerie-

Amanda Wray:

You did that by yourself?

Michael Todd:

No, I had a group of Faeries with me. But I was obviously in the front. They 01:05:00were doing hula hoops, and fire things. But yes, I got in front of them and acted as I was there elected queen. There were gay people.

Michael Todd:

I remember this one lesbian came up to me and she was just giving me hell. Like, "How can you do this? This is wrong. You're feeding right into it." And I'm like, "No, I'm doing exactly what we need to do because we're not going to change them. They're not going to change us. So let's bring the absurdity into the whole thing."

Michael Todd:

That was my role to bring the absurdity and make people laugh because everybody was so intense, and angry, and wanting to hurt each other. They were actually throwing rocks at each other. They threw rocks at me. And our side was just as bad. Actually it was our sad who started throwing the rocks into the KKK people.

Michael Todd:

Of course, they responded by throwing rocks back. There was a police line in 01:06:00between. And that's actually the picture of me standing with the police tape, with the police right there. That's kind of Faerie activism.

Michael Todd:

Another one was when Jessie Helms came out about the whole National Endowment Of The Arts. A group of Faeries and myself we called ourself LANA, Ladies Against Nasty Art. And we dressed up as little church ladies. Actually I think I still have the dress in my thing.

Michael Todd:

I did that here and in Florida as well. And we would go to art shows, and we would find sexual stuff in any art. So we would just stand in front of the art like, "Oh God, do you see that penis?" And, "Oh my God what are they doing with that penis?" And just doing all this. Of course, everybody gets around us and they're laughing.

Michael Todd:

Then we're showing the absurdity of Jesse Helms and his stuff. And we just 01:07:00stayed in character all day just going from booth to booth. I don't care what it was, we found something sexually absurd in any piece of art that we looked at. And we'd spend the entire day doing that. So that's your Radical Faerie activism.

Amanda Wray:

So at least naming and calling attention to the absurdity of the situation right?

Michael Todd:

Exactly. Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

What does that do in terms of radical feminism and thinking about outcomes? What do you think> how does that work?

Michael Todd:

I wouldn't say radical feminism was that. I think when I say the lesbians shaped me, they got me ready for that just by understanding gay rights. I mean, they took me to my first gay parade. Like I said, the March On Washington. To even know that there's pressure to put here. Use this language and not that language. 01:08:00You know, they primed me.

Michael Todd:

Then learning, obviously I didn't know anything about women's rights, other than Gloria Steinem was this woman, they should have equal pay. But they really learn. But I was like, "They're just as equal as I am. There's no difference."

Michael Todd:

But then I realized, oh no. There is a lot of inequality. And our systems are set up to perpetuate that. And still to this day. But I wouldn't have even known to look at that because I didn't have any upbringing for that to be on my awareness or consciousness.

Amanda Wray:

No gender studies classes in college right?

Michael Todd:

Not at all. They trained or taught me to see it. And then the Faeries taught me what to do with that. And I think the other, I said anger was a big piece. And I 01:09:00will say that the lesbians definitely helped fuel the anger.

Michael Todd:

I remember once there was something going on, on the radio. It was way back the first time with gays in the military. I think we had a radio station. And it would be, I can't remember exactly.

Michael Todd:

But they were hosting this scenario where a military person would get in a boxing ring with a gay guy, and beat the shit out of him. And they were talking about this every day on the radio. And I'm like, this is perpetuating violence against gays.

Michael Todd:

Well, I wanted to blow up the radio station. I started making plans on how can I create a bomb to blow up the radio station. I wanted to hurt these people.

Amanda Wray:

Well yeah.

Michael Todd:

And then I realized I am really angry. I am really out of control. And I actually remember I was driving towards Tampa. I even came up with a backup plan of how I would get out of society once I blew this radio station up. I was going to kill these people.

Michael Todd:

Then I remember seeing this Sea World sign. And again, I would have been oblivious to keeping natural animals for our viewing pleasure in this captivity. But the lesbians taught me that. And then I remember seeing this Sea World thing and I was going to Tampa.

Michael Todd:

Then I was just so mad I started banging, and banging, and banging my steering wheel. And I pulled over. I remember thinking then, this angers going to kill me, or get me in serious trouble.

Michael Todd:

I don't remember exactly the sequence of events that happened. But I knew that I 01:11:00needed to do something about the anger. This was also about the same time that the Faeries came in. And then that's how I knew how I was going to deal with that anger. Is the Faeries dealt with their activism in a very fun kind of way that kind of dispersed the anger.

Michael Todd:

And then the other thing was gardening. I started gardening with the Faeries. When I moved to the commune we gardened. And then of course my pagan influence, I put it all into I can pound my anger into the goddess, which is the earth.

Michael Todd:

And then she's going to take that anger and she's going to do something completely gorgeous with that. So then my anger could be filtered. And then something beautiful could come of it.

Michael Todd:

That's really how I became not angry. And I'm not a very angry person nowadays at all. It was the trip with the Faeries is what helped with that aspect. I know 01:12:00as I listen back to what I said, it sounds like I can blame the lesbians for my anger.

Amanda Wray:

It didn't sound that way.

Michael Todd:

But I credit them for my awareness to even know that I should be angry about something. But then I had to work out what to do with that because the anger was going too much.

Amanda Wray:

Can we go back to the anti gay thing? Do you want to take a break?

Michael Todd:

Mm-mm (negative)

Amanda Wray:

Can we go back to your anti gay camp? What was it like there? You said you got up and you prayed. Did y'all have chores?

Michael Todd:

We got up every morning at 6:15. We prayed for probably a good hour. Then we had chores to do. We had to recite poetry. Poetry, I wish it was poetry. That's what 01:13:00I listened to this morning. Scripture. We went to church several times a week.

Amanda Wray:

What about-

Michael Todd:

We lifted weights.

Amanda Wray:

How were they degaying you? Just lots of exposure to-

Michael Todd:

Yes. It was the scripture, the lifting weights, not allowed to have a fancy hairdo, wear anything, which didn't connect with me that much anyway. Had to just do manly things. I mean, it was really kind of stupid when I look back on it now.

Amanda Wray:

So that's what I was going to ask.

Michael Todd:

It really was stupid.

Amanda Wray:

When you met with John, who was your person that you married or didn't marry? He 01:14:00ended up going to be with another-

Michael Todd:

Tom.

Amanda Wray:

Tom. John. Tom. When y'all got together did y'all talk about the absurdity of what your experiences were like there?

Michael Todd:

Tom didn't go through that.

Amanda Wray:

Oh okay.

Michael Todd:

Tom was in the training center.

Amanda Wray:

The Pennsylvania.

Michael Todd:

They were called induction centers.

Amanda Wray:

Okay.

Michael Todd:

And then there's the training. The induction centers were small, maybe 12 people. And then the induction centers was over 200 people. And so I started out in an induction center in North Carolina, and then went to the training center. And then for the month of January I was back in the induction center. It wasn't like those today where everybody in there is gay. But they knew that I was coming in to work on that specific issue.

Amanda Wray:

Okay. All right.

Michael Todd:

Yeah. It was the first time I ever experienced ... People would volunteer to come and do stuff. And there was a gourmet cook who came and made us dinner once 01:15:00a week. And oh my God it was really good food.

Michael Todd:

Most of all, there were individuals that I could connect with, and be okay. But the whole experience in and of itself was just a hard, negative experience. But there were individuals, like the choir director, he obviously was gay. You know, he was very kind to me.

Amanda Wray:

Do you think he believed in what he was-

Michael Todd:

No, I think he was in the same boat I was.

Amanda Wray:

Oh.

Michael Todd:

But he was further down the road. He knew that the part that I was going through was really hard. And he'd already been through it. So you know, he took special interest in me.

Amanda Wray:

Because you said that you learned to hate.

Michael Todd:

I did.

Amanda Wray:

So tell me what you mean by that. Like, what that was.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, I don't think I was a very angry or hateful person but I remember the people who ran this place, which actually it ended up getting shut down. They were mean. And you know, and just very degrading. I probably blocked some of it out because I'm having trouble remembering other than the big concepts.

Michael Todd:

You know, if I would come in a room, I remember one time they were like, quit doing whatever I was going. Maybe I was sitting like this or something. Like, "Uncross your, like that, acting like a fag. Now go work out. Be with the guys. Be a man."

Amanda Wray:

That's going to help me be less gay right? Let me go spend more time.

Michael Todd:

It was just constant that type of just ... It wasn't that way every day. But 01:17:00there was something that happened every day I'm sure.

Amanda Wray:

Was your hatred external directed then?

Michael Todd:

You know, I don't truthfully remember that much about my hatred. I just remember that when I came back, and the leader of this place said, "What did you learn?" I remember telling him, "I learned to hate."

Amanda Wray:

I love that you had your voice right then.

Michael Todd:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

You know? Knew what to say.

Michael Todd:

But I don't actually remember much of the hatred. I just remember that was my response to him. And that I did hate. I remember hating. I remember laying in bed at nights and just thinking that I hated.

Michael Todd:

I think looking back on it now, I don't think I was that in touch with that 01:18:00emotion. So that was probably more powerful than the hate was just like, oh I hate him. There was one other person I hated. But only one.

Amanda Wray:

Do you want to tell me about that person?

Michael Todd:

That was my mothers second husband. And he hated me too. Again, he was very much like the people in this institution because he was an ex Marine. And I was young, and he did not like me. He was very belittling to me, and very disrespectful.

Michael Todd:

I remember one time, I must have been 16 because I drove. I had a Volkswagen. I had just gotten this car. I was obviously visiting mom in the parking lot. And 01:19:00he pulled in, and just rams the back of my car. Like, really you just wrecked my car. And he goes, "You were parking in my driveway." I mean, that was his attitude. I did not like Willie. I hated him.

Michael Todd:

A lot of the people in this thing were very much like him. Matter of fact, the one who gave me the biggest grief was also ex Marine. Very military. And I'm not a military boy. And that's how they did. Even standing, I remember you had to stand this perfect way. You had to make your bed a certain way. The covers had to be tucked in. It was very military.

Michael Todd:

I think that they thought the more manly stuff I did, and the more structured that would-

Amanda Wray:

Condition you.

Michael Todd:

That would condition me. I don't know what they believe these days. I know those 01:20:00things still exist.

Amanda Wray:

I really am curious how do you feel? You think about just these ways of talking about gay identity in the early 1980s and that part of your life, and then now. How much has changed in religious communities in particular do you think?

Michael Todd:

I think things are remarkably changed. Remarkably. Not in every religious community. I think the remarkable changes have happened only in the last few years. If you would have asked me that even five or six years ago I would have probably said, No.

Amanda Wray:

What do you think happened to see a shift?

Michael Todd:

I think that just the visibility of the queer people, the language. I think that has gone a remarkable way. It started to shift to me, I've often said I'm very 01:21:00lucky that the reason I've not been a very prejudiced person is because every time I've had a prejudism, and I've had them, I am confronted with it.

Michael Todd:

The biggest one was because for a while I was going through my anger stuff, I hated Christians. I hated them because they were the ones that were killing gay people. And not wanting us. I like to collect some of that stuff.

Michael Todd:

I have documents that were written by white supremacists that actually say, "Christians duties are to kill homosexuals. And the reason AIDS is here in our world is because you didn't do what you needed to do by eliminating homosexuals."

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Michael Todd:

Where was I going with that? Oh, so I hated Christians. Hated them. Then when the AIDS epidemic hit, some Christians were the best volunteers, some of the best volunteers I had. They would come up. And I remember it being a conflict.

Amanda Wray:

And their religion being a motivating force for volunteering.

Michael Todd:

Yes. It was this big thing like, I hate you because you are killing us. But here 01:22:00you are bringing food to those of us who are dying. You know, every prejudice I've had, something like that has come back at me which has helped me not to deal with that. What was the question actually?

Amanda Wray:

I was asking you about the shift, we've kind of had this shift in religious communities to be a little bit more closer.

Michael Todd:

So yes I think in the last few years it's been remarkable. There's even a term for it. It's not called the new religion, the new church. The emerging church I believe is what it's called. Krista Tippett is I think part of this whole movement too. Is that, churches have taken a re look at themselves.

Michael Todd:

I think they've seen that they've done a lot of harm. And I think your more mainstream have wanted to do something about that. You're going to have your fractions. You're always going to have your fundamentalists.

Michael Todd:

Actually, I actually believe that you kind of can gauge how well you're moving toward progression by how hard the fundamentalists ratchet up. Because when you're starting to move toward a social progression, the fundamentalists up their anty. And that's when you see this shit going on. You know, like this week even.

Amanda Wray:

Do you want to note what that is that you're referencing?

Michael Todd:

Yeah, the shooting in New Zealand, and all the white supremacist killings lately. Even the ISIS or whatever movement it is. It's because there is progression going on over there. Women were starting to get rights so the fundamentalists are going to rise up.

Michael Todd:

Actually if you look at the long view, you can almost say this rise up is proof that progression is happening. I wouldn't have been able to see that a few years 01:24:00ago. Yeah, because that anger would not have allowed. I would have been like, "I want to strike back." And now I can say, "Okay this is actually saying that we're making progress."

Amanda Wray:

Because the church especially in the South carried such a load of building community. I mean, that's what originally sent you into a religious community right was it feels like such an opportunity for us to try to heal our communities from within through this [inaudible]

Michael Todd:

Yeah, I think they've come a long ways. I think there is still a long ways to go of what the United Methodist Church just came down with a ruling that was not positive told queer folk in the last couple weeks.

Michael Todd:

But even hearing the gay and lesbian bishops in that, they're not talking about it in this big, angry type of way anymore. They're like, "Yeah that was not 01:25:00good. And we're going to work to change that."

Michael Todd:

I think because they know that the majority of the parishioners don't feel that way. So they're not even panicked about it. They're just like, okay. Yeah. All right. Some more conservative, minority folks in the group got the biggest voice on this, but I'm in touch with the people of the church and I know that's now how we really feel. I think it's come a long ways.

Amanda Wray:

Can I go back and ask a question about your overdose?

Michael Todd:

Yes.

Amanda Wray:

After that happened, you said you called your youth pastor. Did he come get you from the hospital? When you called him, when did that happen? And that's what set you into this year and a half in these different facilities?

Michael Todd:

Yes. Yes it did. His name was Ron.

Amanda Wray:

How long had it been since?

Michael Todd:

I do not remember how I called him.

Amanda Wray:

I know it just seems kind of interesting.

Michael Todd:

Yeah. I think I was incredibly afraid. Ron was always really good to me. Ron was good. I didn't have any contact with him after I came out so I don't know if he had anything negative to say. But I also knew that he wouldn't. Even if he felt it, he wouldn't say it. He was a really good person.

Michael Todd:

Actually, the timelines coming back to me now. He knew that I had struggled with homosexuality because that's when he took me up to the West Virginia thing. I was still in the church at this point. Then I left the church is when I came out.

Michael Todd:

When I had the overdose, I knew that he would have sympathy to the fact that I had come out, and kind of turned my back on the church. And he did. When I called him and said, "Ron I'm in trouble."

Michael Todd:

I was also in legal trouble because I had stolen credit cards to purchase stuff to sell them so I could buy drugs. I had also gotten into legal trouble. And I called him.

Amanda Wray:

Did your mom know?

Michael Todd:

No. My dad knew. I think right after my overdose I also called my dad and said, "I'm in trouble. There might be legal stuff coming down. I had an overdose. I'm 01:28:00afraid." And I remember dad was like, "Come on out here to the house." So I actually went out to the house. I'm just remembering this now as I'm telling it.

Michael Todd:

Then that's where I contacted Ron, from dads house. Ron found about Teen Challenge within a day or two. And then he says, "I'm going to take you up to Teen Challenge, this induction center in North Carolina." And the day that I was going to leave, detectives showed up. And they put me under arrest.

Michael Todd:

I actually said, which was stupid at this point. I'm like, "I can't go with you. I'm going to a drug rehab." And the guy said, "I don't think you quite understand. I just placed you under arrest." And I went with my arms like this. 01:29:00I said, "I'm going to a drug rehab. I've got to go."

Michael Todd:

I had needle marks, tracks. And he actually had empathy and he said, "Yes I think you need to go there. If you will come down to the station and give a statement, we're going to let you go there. So I went down. I gave a statement, which indicted my partner in crime. But they already knew that anyway. But my statement certainly confirmed that she was involved with that as well. I was placed under rule that I could not leave the-

Amanda Wray:

The state?

Michael Todd:

No, this treatment center. I had to make sure they were there. And then they dropped the charges after several months. I was still there and they dropped the 01:30:00charges. I never heard anything else about it.

Amanda Wray:

I'm glad that worked out.

Michael Todd:

Yeah, so that's how that worked.

Amanda Wray:

All right. So we're two hours in I think.

Michael Todd:

Are we? Do you want to stop and have some stew?

Amanda Wray:

12:30. Let me pause this.

Michael Todd:

Yeah.