Oral History with Lorena Russell and Kitty Hancock, Part 2

Libby:

Okay. Thank you for sharing your time and the gift of your stories. I've set aside two hours for our interview but at any point we can take a break or end the interview. My name is Libby Ward and I am a UNC Asheville student working with two other undergraduates and faculty mentor, Dr. Amanda Wray, to record histories from elders and representative members of the LGBTQ community.

Libby:

Our goal is to document alternative histories and foster intergenerational connections. Collected data will be used to develop a needs assessment and asset map for LGBTQ+ people in western North Carolina.

Libby:

With your permission all stories will be archived with special collections at UNC Asheville. I have an oral history release form for you to sign that gets your oral history and other archives you might have to special collections with or without restrictions. Research participants can remain anonymous if they prefer to use a pseudonym. Legally, I have to say that.

Libby:

Did you participate in or do you have any memories of any of the movements that 00:01:00came out of the '50s, '60s, '70s, such as the civil rights movement, the women's liberation movement, or the gay liberation movement?

Lorena:

You want to start, Kitty?

Kitty:

No. I guess I'd say no.

Lorena:

I don't know. I mean, in terms of the feminist movement and, again, I have that intellectual history so mine tended to happen through the university and through courses that increased my awareness of gender. Our participation you can see from even just those archival materials that when I was a student at UNC-A I started that feminist collective so I was clearly influenced by the women's movement and there was a period where that's sort of how gender and sexuality entered the conversation academically is through women's studies.

Lorena:

Definitely that. I think that my ... I also consider my scholarship and this is somewhat controversial but I consider the work I've done as a teacher and as a scholar in queer studies as a form of activism. For me, it's very much grounded in the scholarship.

Lorena:

Our activism was we were participants in SAGA and the community connections. I had a role with that paper. The community here in Asheville in the late '80s and early '90s ... I guess we left here in '91. Is that right? Yeah.

Kitty:

Yeah. '91, '92.

Lorena:

Yeah. There was that period where I think I had that level of activism and I remember we'd go with buses to Washington to marches. There were at least three 00:03:00marches I think. One I remember I think was abortion rights. It was a women's feminist march. Then at least one or two ... I can't remember if there were two for feminism and one for ... But there was a big '91 march that we attended, a big LGBT march in DC. Then we'd go to Raleigh for marches and demonstrations.

Lorena:

As I say, for me, it was more about feminism and that I feel like my awareness about the civil rights ... I think that I wasn't active. I wasn't actively pursuing anti-racist measures in the same way I was working for gender and sexuality and that that came to me later in my education.

Kitty:

Yeah. I did women's studies, like '75, '76.

Lorena:

That's way back.

Kitty:

Yeah. It was new then, women's studies. Then, of course, I was always along for the ride for the marches and that kind of thing. I remember going to ... Was it Washington?

Lorena:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). We went to Raleigh a couple of times and Washington two or three times.

Kitty:

Then you had to find the North Carolina group.

Lorena:

Yes.

Kitty:

It was Charlotte, [inaudible 00:04:29], and Cynthia James that were real active in getting everybody together and getting the group together with the banner so we'd all be behind the North Carolina banner, which was exciting in itself because there were so many people and on the Mall and everything. That's what I remember.

Libby:

Did being part of the LGBTQ community bring you in contact with people of different class and racial backgrounds? How did that impact your circumstances 00:05:00or outlook?

Lorena:

Yeah. I guess it did somewhat. I do remember those conversations. I think I mentioned it last time. I seem to remember one in Charlotte's living room and there were a couple of African-American women that I remember who were part of the larger group and that we were always talking a lot about inclusion and the challenges of how to reach that and have a more diverse group. It was an integrated group but there were still struggles there to get beyond just a white dominance.

Lorena:

In terms of income classes, sure. This was also ... I'm thinking of the ... God, I can't remember people's names. That carpenter fellow that we knew. I mean, it wasn't just a ...

Kitty:

We were all kind of just college poor. You know? I mean, I wasn't aware of tons 00:06:00of class. Maybe I just wasn't aware.

Lorena:

Yeah. I mean, if I'm thinking blue collar/white collar it was a mix and because I did sort of come to it through the university probably more [crosstalk 00:06:22].

Kitty:

We were all students.

Lorena:

University crowd.

Kitty:

All students. Yeah. That carpenter fellow was ...

Lorena:

Yeah. Was he a student?

Kitty:

Yeah. Yeah. That's how you met him.

Lorena:

That did work on our house later? Yeah.

Kitty:

That's how you met him.

Lorena:

Yeah.

Libby:

Let's see. Who are particular individuals that impacted you and/or the western North Carolina LGBTQ community?

Lorena:

Well, we mentioned Charlotte and Cynthia. Certainly, for me, [inaudible 00:06:51]. You know, various teachers. For me, it was so much about my growing awareness. I'm trying to think. Karen Raley, Kitty's first lover.

Kitty:

Karen Raley. She was a history professor at UNC-G.

Lorena:

We knew her when she was a student, though.

Kitty:

A student.

Lorena:

She was big into feminism and women's studies and she had that community in Greensboro. That's where I first sort of came into a community through Karen.

Lorena:

Of course, the teachers I had were significant in terms of helping me be a better critical thinker around issues of difference. I can't minimize all the teachers I've had. I can hardly even name names there's so many. Like Phyllis Betts from that class who isn't part of the community but led me towards that good research and all those questions.

Lorena:

I'm probably leaving someone major out. How about you? Who would you think of through the years?

Kitty:

Charlotte and Cynthia, Karen.

Lorena:

Then, for me, the other thing that was happening then that was significant was AIDS/HIV and that was also a piece of it. When I think back on ... I think when you know people who are HIV positive then it's a boost to your eagerness to get out there. There were things that were about testing and anonymity and panels we were sort of active with around that issue too.

Kitty:

We joined a group against Jesse Helms.

Lorena:

That's right.

Kitty:

We campaigned.

Lorena:

Yeah. Yeah. Harvey Gant.

Kitty:

Harvey Gant.

Lorena:

We were politically active with that. That was probably our first actual political activism where we [crosstalk 00:08:53].

Kitty:

Went out and campaigned.

Lorena:

Went door to door and canvassed to get votes for Harvey Gant, who was an African-American. That's interesting because you asked about race and that was a 00:09:00lot about race too actually when I think about it. The motivator there wasn't all about being a lesbian. It was about trying to get [crosstalk 00:09:14].

Kitty:

Have you ever heard of Jesse Helms? Jesse Helms?

Libby:

That name sounds really familiar.

Kitty:

He was awful.

Lorena:

Horrendous North Carolina senator for years and years.

Kitty:

North Carolina senator.

Lorena:

Racist, homophobic.

Kitty:

He'd say things like homosexuals should just all be burned at the stake. Yeah.

Lorena:

Yeah. He was very [inaudible] and really held the power in North Carolina politics for years. Harvey Gant had been the mayor of Charlotte, an African-American man, who gave it a good run but couldn't overcome the racism I think it was.

Libby:

Yeah. You talked a lot about your activism. Do you have any stories, any memories besides knocking on the doors? Any events that happened? Do you remember any?

Kitty:

We've about told them all.

Lorena:

Yeah. I think we've told them talking about the marches were the big things. I 00:10:00mean, I remember going to a reenactment of a play that David did at All Souls Church. Oh gosh. What is that? It's a dark, dark play about a homosexual under the Holocaust. Remember that?

Kitty:

Oh, yes.

Lorena:

The guy carrying the ...

Kitty:

The [inaudible 00:10:24]. Yeah.

Lorena:

Oh, wow. There were social events like that. There were the musical events and the concerts. Then the meetings. I remember the big deal with SAGA and it isn't a specific event but sort of the ongoing conversation was they just started the thing where you could have ... Organizations could claim pieces of highways to cleanup. SAGA got very brave and then chose a piece of highway like right on the border of Heywood County and Buncombe County off of I-40.

Libby:

When is that?

Lorena:

Oh, when was that? That was like in the '80s I think. People kept taking it down.

Kitty:

The signs.

Lorena:

We kept trying to put it back up and after about three times the state said, "We're no longer paying for the sign. This is ridiculous." Then it became, "Can we raise enough money to get a sign?" Then after we gave a fair amount of money to replenish signs I think we finally gave up the battle of trying to keep it up because there was too much ...

Kitty:

You still had to go and cleanup the trash.

Lorena:

Right.

Kitty:

Yeah. On that part of the highway.

Lorena:

The I-40 ...

Kitty:

That's a funny story. I'd forgotten that.

Lorena:

Yeah.

Kitty:

I'd forgotten that.

Libby:

I'm curious if you have faced any homophobia in your life, if you have any stories.

Lorena:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, not terribly. I don't feel as though I've been ... It's been good for me. It makes you tough. You know?

Libby:

Yeah.

Kitty:

Remember when we were downtown and that car pulled up beside us.

Lorena:

That's the one my mind goes to.

Kitty:

Then didn't you register that somewhere? Remember how ...

Lorena:

No. It was ... Yeah. That was a scary encounter. The one time where I really was a little scared for safety.

Kitty:

Because of a bumper sticker Lorena had.

Lorena:

Yeah. I had a little coming out day bumper sticker on the car and these neo-Nazi types were trailing us and gunning their car and this was right downtown.

Kitty:

On Heywood.

Lorena:

Yeah. We'd come off of Merrimon and worked our way up to Haywood and they were coming up against us doing Seig Heil, die faggots die, get AIDS. I think they thought we were gay men. I remember having that feeling.

Kitty:

Yeah.

Lorena:

Even though I had long hair I think I had a cap on. It was winter.

Kitty:

Then they just drove off.

Lorena:

Yeah. They cruised us a little bit. Then this was in the days when downtown had 00:13:00no people on the streets and was dark and pretty deserted. We parked on Haywood Street and then got out and they came back around in the car.

Kitty:

I don't remember any of this.

Lorena:

I do.

Kitty:

I just remember being at the light and they came up beside us.

Lorena:

No. We were walking up the street and they cruised up the car and yelled at us again and I thought, "Oh, no. Are they going to come out?" At that point I think that's when I had the feeling [crosstalk 00:13:27].

Kitty:

They realized that we were women.

Lorena:

They realized that we were women because they kept calling us faggots and I think they thought we were gay men or maybe they just didn't have the vocabulary.

Kitty:

Didn't you have to ... Somebody ...

Lorena:

Yes. What happened was, and I told the story to friends in SAGA, and part of what it brought forth was there was no protection about hate laws at that point. There were no hate crime protections at all and we still don't really have it for LGBT here in North Carolina.

Lorena:

The university at that point had just passed an anti-discrimination clause and I 00:14:00remember feeling as though ... I did report it. I think I did.

Kitty:

Somebody contacted you.

Lorena:

Yes.

Kitty:

Someone like David ... Not David Hopes but Bramlett?

Lorena:

Yeah. Maybe Bramlett.

Kitty:

Bramlett. They were tracking ...

Lorena:

Trying to track incidents of assault and violence and so that was a verbal and we never faced that level of ...

Kitty:

Other than that.

Lorena:

But certainly you ... I remember my brother-in-law when we moved to Highlands, North Carolina told the hospital, "Don't hire Kitty because she's a lesbian."

Kitty:

Yeah. I didn't want to be hired there anyway.

Lorena:

I know but it was clearly an attempt to block us. In those days, you wouldn't hire a lesbian to be a teacher or a nurse.

Kitty:

Yeah.

Lorena:

We had job discrimination. I remember trying to buy a house off of Charlotte Street on Baird Street and ... You know, it's tricky reading homophobia. There 00:15:00may have been many reasons this woman denied selling us the house but I remember coming away from that thinking it was homophobic that she didn't want to sell to two women. We told you the story of ...

Kitty:

We already told that.

Lorena:

Trying to buy this house. You know, it's there. Remember going to the dog park not long ago, maybe five years ago, and a guy ... I can't remember what he said. Oh, I know. He said, "You can't even tell these days if someone is a woman or a man." I probably had my hair short like this and started badmouthing me. It was interesting because the community ... The people came around me and were like, "I can't believe him. What an asshole."

Kitty:

Yeah.

Lorena:

And just sort of put him down. That was like that. That's rarer these days you have people coming up.

Kitty:

Saying.

Lorena:

Saying things. I remember overhearing students using slurs talking about other 00:16:00students in the hall and in the humanities building and being brave enough, being empowered enough to go up to them and say, "You must not realize I'm a lesbian because you'd never say those things out loud in a public space. Would you say that about a black person if you saw a black person there? You must not know how hurtful it is to hear people talk like you've been talking."

Lorena:

It was different. I don't think you'd ... I don't know. Maybe you would encounter that on campus today but I sort of doubt it.

Libby:

Yeah. I haven't experienced anything like that. Yeah.

Lorena:

Yeah. It was much more condoned then. It was just sort of out there. You'll see those questions. It shows how dominant the prejudice was in the society.

Libby:

For sure. Let's see. I completely forgot what I was just about to ask. Did we 00:17:00talk anything about gay bars or anything?

Lorena:

No. We didn't because we don't have much of a history with them.

Libby:

Yeah. Okay.

Lorena:

Yeah. We really don't. It was more about Malaprops. We talked about Malaprops but we weren't regulars at O'Henry's. For some reason we skipped the ... You may have done more in Greensboro before I knew you.

Kitty:

Yeah. Just a little bit. It was the place to go. You know? It never was our scene. We didn't do gay bars.

Lorena:

I think maybe part of that is because we had that nice community from camp years so most of our social stuff were with our straight friends probably.

Kitty:

Yeah.

Libby:

Okay. I think those were really all the questions I had. Yeah. Do you guys want 00:18:00to talk about anything politics-wise or anything like that? Up to you.

Lorena:

You mean contemporary politics?

Libby:

Yeah. I would say kind of a comparison and then kind of what you have envisioned or would hope for in the future for politics-wise.

Lorena:

Yeah. Yeah. I can speak to that that I do see ... I think it is nice being older because you do see ... I remember they had a column in that community connections Forward Slides and Backslides. Every month there would be a list of gains that the movement had made and then also discriminatory laws that had been put into practice or terrible tales of people being killed or hurt.

Lorena:

I feel like I've come to accept that social justice movements have that pattern 00:19:00of progression and then backsliding but that said I've never quite seen a backslide in terms of our political leadership like we're experiencing now.

Lorena:

I think we have a horrendous executive office and Republican not doing their jobs in Congress. I think that we're ... I feel like we're at a really unique and historical unprecedented ... Everyone keeps saying that but I really do feel as though we're in an unprecedented historical movement of reversals of gains in terms of social policy and social justice and general decency.

Lorena:

That's like my global sort of thing. Personally, I was motivated when Trump was elected. I feel like that's one of the main things where I was like, "Well, I've 00:20:00got to do something" and that's when I started volunteering more actively with Youth Ally.

Lorena:

I do feel like the political movement and I think this is often the case is when you're in a slump is when people are digging into their pockets to give money because you realize the pressure on minorities is harsher than ever.

Lorena:

I think I've already spoken to how I think that we can't look at this as a sort of isolated LGBT moment anymore that it has to be about all kinds of intersectional differences, including class and race are the two that come to mind most specifically. And ethnicity.

Lorena:

I think that's become just so obvious that we can't leave folks behind who are also suffering. Is that the kind of thing?

Libby:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lorena:

Did you have a followup question?

Libby:

I kind of skip around but in the media there's a lot of talk about, "Well, gay 00:21:00people should just come out. They should just come out and everything will be fine." Do you think that people should be forced to come out? Do you know what you mean?

Lorena:

Yeah. I don't. I agree with the underlying premise that I think visibility has been the key ... I think without visibility and without speaking up we wouldn't be where we are today. That silence equals death I do agree with that.

Lorena:

Do I think people should be forcibly outed? No, I think that's a decision each individual has to make. I think it's harder if you're a celebrity to be closeted. I think if you're a politician and you are passing homophobic legislation and fucking boys on the side, as we've had politicians do, then I 00:22:00think perhaps they deserve to be outed for that kind of duplicity but your average person who is struggling with identity I think they need support and it has to happen at the level people are comfortable with. What do you think?

Kitty:

Lorena ...

Lorena:

I know. I get on my professor hat.

Kitty:

Lorena has [crosstalk 00:22:30].

Lorena:

I've had too much of this academic stuff. You know? Where I've thought about this stuff.

Kitty:

I don't think it's right to out people. People should do it themselves. You know?

Libby:

Yeah.

Kitty:

You mean politically that they should be outed because ...

Libby:

Yeah.

Kitty:

Yeah. I didn't know about that. You said that there are people that feel everybody should be outed?

Libby:

I've heard people on standup and people just I've read articles online saying everything will just go away if gay people come out.

Kitty:

Go away? No.

Libby:

Yeah.

Lorena:

I do think there's an interesting sort of thought experiment where if we achieved the utopian dream of a non-prejudicial society where people no longer identified sexual or gender difference as significant ... Like let's say we really got to the point where ... Most people are. "Oh, you're gay?" It isn't like they put you in a box.

Lorena:

If it became that zero degree deviancy I mentioned last time then, yeah, maybe it would become a more meaningless identity. Part of the reason we have our identity is because of the discrimination, right? I mean, I see some logic there but to me that's not the way humans are ever ... I don't know if we're ever going to achieve ... That's very utopian. It's what we're striving towards, that 00:24:00acceptance, but I don't see it coming. It gets better, though.

Libby:

I asked you all the questions that I had.

Lorena:

All right. Good.

Kitty:

Wonderful.

Libby:

Is there anything else you would want to talk about or anything you have in mind?

Lorena:

I do have some photos I'd be interested in giving the archives just some shots of those marches in the '90s in Raleigh and in Washington and locally. There's an Asheville ... We used to have marches here.

Kitty:

Yeah. We don't do that anymore ... Do we do that?

Lorena:

No. They had a terrible ... It was the NC Pride. That's why we have Blue Ridge Pride as a break-off because they used to have a state march every ... I don't know if it was in June or fall. They'd have a gay pride march and they'd alternate between the triangle and Asheville.

Lorena:

Then the committee, the people got in a fight over it, and so we ended up with 00:25:00separate parades and separate institutions. I think. I'm not absolutely sure about the Blue Ridge Pride as an organization but there was that split.

Lorena:

I think the agreement was we could no longer have parades in Asheville or something. [crosstalk 00:25:27].

Kitty:

Sebastian.

Lorena:

I think Tina had a parade thing but she didn't call it a parade. It was like a procession. [inaudible 00:25:40]. Yeah. We used to have big parades. Oh, yeah. People would line the streets all the way from the courthouse down the Haywood Street and all the way up.

Kitty:

There would always be those Bible thumper [crosstalk 00:25:54].

Lorena:

Oh, yeah. They were awful.

Kitty:

With the cross.

Lorena:

Die fag die.

Libby:

Those are my favorite.

Lorena:

I've got some pictures of that. Always misspelled. It was always faggot with one 00:26:00G or something. Oh gosh. Yeah. I'll send you those photos. I'll pick those out and send them.

Libby:

Yeah. For sure.

Lorena:

Send them to you.

Libby:

You guys mentioned a few names. I just want to make sure I get the spelling right.

Lorena:

Sure.

Libby:

You talked about Cynthia and Charlotte. How do you spell ... Do you mind spelling that out?

Lorena:

Charlotte Goedsche. G-O-E-D-S-C-H-E. A good German name there.

Kitty:

Yeah.

Lorena:

Then Cynthia Janes. J-A-N-E-S.

Kitty:

James.

Lorena:

Oh, was it James?

Kitty:

I think it was James.

Lorena:

James or Janes. Yeah.

Kitty:

J-A-M-E-S.

Lorena:

Okay.

Libby:

Okay. Bramlett?

Lorena:

Bramlett Keith. Bramlett B-R-A-M-L-E-T-T.

Libby:

Okay. Then Karen Raley?

Lorena:

Yeah. Karen R-A-L-E-Y.

Libby:

Okay. Phyllis Betts?

Lorena:

B-E-T-T-S.

Libby:

Okay. I think those are all the names. Jesse Helms. Harvey Gant.

Lorena:

Harvey Gant.

Kitty:

Jesse Helms.

Libby:

All right.

Kitty:

Yes.

Libby:

Well, thank you.

Lorena:

Oh, sure.

Kitty:

Oh, yeah.

Lorena:

[crosstalk 00:27:20].

Libby:

Sorry this one wasn't as long.

Kitty:

It's wonderful.

Lorena:

That's great. Thank you.

Kitty:

When does this [crosstalk 00:27:28].