Oral History with Michael Harney Part 1

Michael Harney, Feb 19 2019

Interviewed by Corey Childers UNC Asheville Ramsey Library Location

C: Thank you for your time and the gift of your stories. I've set aside two hours for our interview, but at any point we can take a break or end the interview. My name is Corey Childers, and I am a UNC Asheville student working with two other undergraduates and faculty mentor Dr. Amanda Wray to record oral histories from elders and representative members of the LGBTQ community. Our goal is to document alternative histories and foster intergenerational connections; collected data will be used to develop a needs assessment and asset map for LGBTQ+ people in Western North Carolina. With your permission, all stories will be archived with Special Collections at UNC Asheville. I have an oral history release for you to sign that gifts your oral history and other archives you may have to Special Collections, with or without restrictions. You can remain anonymous if you prefer to select a pseudonym. But as you have said, 00:01:00you have given us your gifts. So, can I get you to spell your name, and then tell me your date of birth.

M: My name is Michael Joseph Harney Jr., my date of birth is April 14th, 1966. So I'll be 53 this year.

C: Today is February 19th, 2019. So just to start, How long have you lived in 00:02:00Western North Carolina?

M: So I came to North Carolina to Asheville in 1992, my friend Patricia Adell who was born and raised here, went to school with me at Belmont Abbey College down near Charlotte. And she contacted me, we stayed in contact -obviously- from college days. I graduated from Belmont Abbey in 1988. And she asked me to come build a garden with her and to paint the house that she had just purchased, so I came and I never left.

C: So what things have you seen that changed here? In positive ways?

M: Well, there have been lots of changes, some positive, some negative, right? Or some questionable. Back then, I think the population was around 68 or 69 00:03:00thousand people in the Asheville area, so when you look at the population now in Asheville over 80-85 thousand people, there's been an influx of people, that was just Asheville proper as I recall. And the county itself I think now is somewhere around 250 thousand people, I think there are 800 thousand people or so estimated in what we call the Western North Carolina region. So there's been a lot of growth, with people coming from different places. I was form the Hampton/Newport News area of VA, although I directly came from Richmond, where I was back at school at Virginia Commonwealth University, so I left there and came here. But that's where I was born and raised, on the coast, so it was very different, but that's where I was born and raised on the coast, so it was very different for me to be here in the mountains, and I remember trying to figure 00:04:00out my ways around the roads downtown and I would come home, I say home, to Tricia's home, which became my home, and tell her where I was and where I'd been and what roads and she's like "whoa! You're just gettin' around aren't you? You've found your way on that road and that road and you went over there too? Amazing." She lives in Arden, in that part of Asheville, south part of Asheville. So I was just trying to get out and get to know my community a little bit, and I guess I've seen, in terms of LGBT issues, the gay bar scene has changed dramatically. There are fewer bars that are more specifically focused upon providing kind of an LGBTQ community or environment. They say, or it is said that "we can go anywhere nowadays" but I'm not sure that we can. You may be able to hold hands, you may be able to hug somebody, or you may be able to get a 00:05:00little kiss but, I dont think its still quite as accepted in all bars and clubs and restaurants and you know, places, facilities. The area that I worked in, we'll talk more about it I suspect, I worked with the Western North Carolina Aids Project, so back in the early 90s, one of the first jobs I had was what we called "street outreach" and there's an area in Asheville, if you're familiar with it, called The Grove Arcade, so there's lots of really nice restaurants and fancy hotels now and expensive condos. That was the Federal Building, back in the early 90s, when I got here. And by night, that whole area became a public sex environment for men meeting other men, and it had been so for years and years prior to my arrival, but that has completely changed now, that's not 00:06:00happening, it may have to do with technology as well. People on social media, you know, I always tease about Christian Mingle as a sex website, people talk about Grindr and Tumblr and all that kind of stuff but, they are all, we all look for partners for sex, right? So, Farmers Only, whatever you wanna call it, its all, to me it's all the same thing. That may have changed a little bit but the dynamics of downtown have changed; there used to be, I don't know, two or three restaurants maybe? In the evenings, places that people went to, McGuffey's was one of them for example. Everybody went to McGuffey's, if you didn't go to McGuffey's, you weren't goin' out! Kind of thing you know. Of course Scandals was the big dance club at the time, and "scandalous" if you had been there and you weren't part of the LGBT community or people didn't know, and might have seen others there, things like that. Those things have changed. And, people have 00:07:00come and gone, some have moved away, some have gotten other things to do in their communities, whether here or surrounding communities or far, there have been a lot of changes.

C: So, did you witness these changes? Did you just wake up one day and the Grove Park was completely different?

M: It was the Grove Arcade, the Grove Park Inn is the big Hotel, that's different than the Grove arcade, that was that building down near Battery Park and by the Civics Center, you know where I'm talking about? Over by the Federal Building now? That area. Yes, it was changed completely, and I don't know that I just woke up and noticed the change, it came slowly, but it came consistently, and as people arrived here from different places, around the country or around 00:08:00the world, they brought their ideas and their concepts and their desires to make it home and nest. So, you either become part of it, or you fight it and try to maintain what it was, but that just doesn't seem to happen. There are some amazing, beautiful, wonderful things about what Asheville was at that time, I'm certain there were things prior to my arrival that people remember and can tell you about, I've got some friends, those like Patricia or a friend named Dave Ayres, who's born and raised here, they can tell you what it was like growing up here, they can tell you what is was like coming downtown, what was or was not and when the buildings kind of started to get boarded up, when the mall came, when the tunnel was built right there through Asheville what we call Tunnel 00:09:00Road, and the interstate coming through 240, they can tell you all about that. So there's so much history that I hope is being archived, I'm really excited that you're doing this piece of it, but the North Carolina room, at Pack Library is also doing some archival work and I was telling Dr. Wray that I have actually submitted some materials there too, as part of what Zoe Ryan has been collecting around the LGBTQ community and history.

C: So what do you hope for Asheville and Western NC in general as our community moves forward?

M: It's hard to say, I don't know what to hope for, my story about being here is 00:10:00kind of an interesting concept of something that people might think is a little weird, or maybe they think it's "Ashevillian". I used to work at JCPenney back in Norfolk, VA years ago and I sold suits at the mens department. And I can just tell you that I was one day eating lunch in the middle of the mall, they had a carousel there, it was military circle mall I think it was called, and I'm a vegetarian but at the time I was not, and I had two hotdogs! And i was eating one of them, and I had the other one next to me, and this is how I always describe it, it sounds probably crude and crass but this raggedy old lady came up to me, just like what you might think of, as I recall, the most homeless lookin', stereotypical, just I don't know, bag lady? That kind of stereotype, stereotypical kind of image. And she said, out of the blue, "You'll be safe in 00:11:00the mountains, and it'll be okay, and things will be just fine right there, and life will be okay" and I was like "yeah mhm you want a hotdog?" that's what I said, and I looked around, and she had vanished. And as I am telling you now I am feeling this like, sense. I don't know, I don't know who she was, I don't know why, and so a couple years later I ended up here, and I always relate my being here to that (pause) premonition? That, experience? That connection.. I don't know who that was. I mean, vanished! I looked around, and I was like "who the fuck was that?" "where did she..go?" So I took that story with me and I always tell, I told Tricia about that, and so I feel very much at home here. 00:12:00What do I hope for Asheville? I hope that it be my home until I am longer to be on this earth as I am. That's all. I let it take me where it takes me, I feel comfortable here. When I leave the mountain to go visit people anywhere else, it's fine, I love to travel I always have, but I always feel best when I'm here. And I appreciate being a part of this community, why I'm here, I don't know why people are in my life and I'm in their lives, why we're crossing paths today, you and I, Corey. Why did Patricia come into my life when she did in the 80's, and why is my friend Dave in my life? Why is my partner Paul in my life? Why did I work for Marty? Why am I at the AIDS project? Why am I in this community? I don't understand it, but I just go with it. So, I don't have particular hopes of 00:13:00Asheville or the community, I guess what I always hope is that we can find a way to reduce stigma and discrimination, to realize that we really are just all sharing this space and place called earth for a very short time, that we have more similarities than we have differences, even though we look at each other on the outside we seem so different, biologically we are more similar than we are dissimilar, and I hope that maybe my time on this earth, in this city around the community has been helpful in some ways. I was in a group in college called Ripples, and the concept, this was at Belmont Abbey, the concept was to toss a stone into the pond and that what you toss, would create a positive rippling 00:14:00effect into the community and into the world. And I think that I do that sometimes. I am always so impressed that somebody remembers me, or some interaction we've had. I had this happen yesterday, and tell me if I'm talking too much. So, I do HIV and Hepatitis C testing for the Western North Carolina AIDs Project and happened to be over at Haywood County Detention Center over there testing some of the men, and this guy came in and he's like *speaking excitedly* "I remember you! Wow! You're still doing this?! Man, in 2004 you came and taught our class!" and I was like "how do you remember me?" He said, "it's the mustache, man! It's the mustache!" I said, "Yeah but it's gotten really grey now and I've got lots of wrinkles on my face now." But he said "Man I just can't believe you still do this!" I'm like, "I guess that's part of the consistency of 00:15:00who I am and what I do" you know? So, that pebble, in 2004, rippled that far and just now came back to me.

I had another experience, at I don't remember, I guess it was at Blue Ridge Pride, maybe two years ago and I was at the festival and this random guy came up to me, he's like "you Miguel?" and I was like "yeah, I'm Miguel" and I always say "Como esta usted?" you know I teach Spanish at AB Tech and at Blue Ridge Community colleges, so people know me from the AIDS Project, they know me from outreach, they know me from teaching Spanish, I don't know how people know me, thousands of people I guess. And he said "Man, I just wanna thank you" and I said " for what?" He said "I was in your Spanish class in the late 90's and I had been homeschooled all my life up to that point. And I was taking your 00:16:00Spanish class 'cause my mother couldn't teach me Spanish, and that was the first time I had ever heard anything about sex ed." and he said "you were talking about HIV and AIDS in the Spanish speaking community" I always bring it in around World AIDS day, so I kind of brought HIV and AIDS into the- I was like "okay its spanish related, its world AIDS day" you know, so it didn't seem like I had an agenda. And he was like "from that point, I went to become an EMT, Emergency medical tech, and then I went back and got my nursing degree, and I'm an RN and I'm even thinking about medical school" and I was like "what!?!" you know? *chuckles* From throwing a pebble in the pond? That's the kind of stuff that happens to me, it just does, I'm very grateful.

C: So I guess if you're okay with us to just, take it back, I wanted to ask you 00:17:00to describe where you grew up, how long did you live there, what was that place like, and any childhood memories you might have?

M: Sure, and as you have questions you know, stop and ask, interject. I was born in Newport News Virginia at Riverside Hospital, that's what it was called. I always tell people I'm from the Hampton/Newport News area and they're like "was it Hampton or Newport News?" I was like "We always called it Hampton/Newport News, it was the peninsula" but technically I was born in Newport News, Virginia. I am the first child of six, I am the eldest. My siblings, so we were the six M's. Michael, Maureen, Marcia, Matthew, Mark, and Marty. My mother was Catherine, and my father they called him Joe, so, I'm junior but they always 00:18:00called him Joe. and we grew up in a neighborhood called Farmington, and we moved four times, so we lived in four different homes there over the years; kind of outgrowing one, or moving to another for whatever reasons. You could probably find some archive letters to the editor from what was called the Daily Press and Times Herald newspapers back then. I was a teenager when I wrote my first letter to the editor, and I remember being invited to a breakfast kind of thing from the newspaper, for anybody who had written a letter to the editor. And I got my invitation but my father had also gotten an invitation because he must've submitted something and he was like "what are you doing? Where are you going?" and I was like "I'm going to this breakfast to the newspaper" and he was like "well how? What?" and I was like "I wrote a column too, you know? A letter to 00:19:00the editor"

I grew up as the eldest of six, and I guess if you interviewed my siblings they would tell you different stories, but I have always known that I was a gay child, a gay person, a gay man, and people you know, ask, "is it taught or is it learned?" you know, kind of stuff you know "is it you?" I just, I've always been a gay man, I've always known it. And I'll say some names here, but I remember Thomas Adset, as a very very young child. You know, people say "well that was just childhood play" that kind of thing. I said well, how did we ever get started. I have never thought, perceived, experienced any kind of trauma, you know I don't think I was sexually assaulted or abused or forced into anything as 00:20:00a young child, I just don't remember it ever being a bad experience, it was always a natural, -nature vs. nurture kind of thing- I've always thought it was a natural component of who I am. I remember Jeff Merritt, we were neighborhood buddies. He was a couple years older than I but, though we were sexual beings, you know even through teenage years, he is now in a loving relationship, he's married to another man kind of thing, you know and we keep up every once in awhile and email "how you been? You remember that? somebody died in the neighborhood" that kind of thing. So, I remember all of that, but I also *pauses* I really I find myself still to be a workaholic, and so I have three jobs and I'll always take another if you've got something more for me to do I'll do it kind of thing. Last summer I kept six lawns around here for example, plus my own, plus my three jobs, you know, so I have that "aholic" I'm not a drinker, 00:21:00and we can talk about that kind of stuff later. But, I remember being a worker bee, I had as many as fourteen lawns one summer, I used to wash cars and babysit and do windows, and just anything! Rake leaves, pine straw, I just, I did that, and I don't know why I did but I just did, that was what I did. You know, so I had friends and a bicycle and those kinds of things but I loved to work. If you could give me a job cutting grass or doing whatever it was, I love that kind of stuff. And the people that I worked for were quite influential in my life. It was through one of the ladies I worked for, May Kearns, her nephew was one of the Brothers, Brother Gregory at Belmont Abbey College that got me in there, kind of on a probationary entrance. I'd had some troubles in high school in 00:22:00terms of grades that made it very difficult for me to get into any of the schools that I applied to in Virginia, the state schools, I was not able to get into one of them, and it had to do with in the 11th grade, 10th or 11th grade, a group of us got suspended for quote on quote "smoking marijuana during school" times and not a one of us could remember the incident that we were accused of but we got ten days suspension, and that led to sixty zeros, which led to a very low grade point average, and it was very difficult for me to explain that when I went to apply for colleges. So, the lady that i cut grass for her nephew was one of the brothers at Belmont Abbey and said "we'll take him in on a probationary clause here" but, I certainly succeeded there and excelled. What else about 00:23:00growing up?

If you wanna hear about the mean stuff, I remember being called "faggot" and "sissy" and stuff. I remember when one of my friends in the tenth grade asked "why do you walk like you've got jello in your ass?" and I was like "what? wha? jello in my- what??" so it forced me to quote-on-quote "butch it up a little bit". And it's funny today, I don't know how you perceive me, sometimes people are a little bit confused I don't know if it's the hair, the gray, the wrinkle, the whatever, I'm a big ole' flamer, but sometimes people say "are you gay? Are you really gay?" and I'll say "yeah what makes you think I'm not?" I remember some guy, thinking he was being cool said "I heard you're gay, man?" and I said "yeah? what do I have to do to prove it?" you know? Like, you're not getting my 00:24:00power, you don't get my power. I said "well, gosh if you haven't read any of my columns or seen my letters to the editor or seen pictures, or heard me speak publicly, and you don't know I'm gay? What?" But I remember that growing up being called those names, and yet I was that one kid who always had the cash, that was always working, that was always I said I create a claim for the things I do and did. I like to travel, I had enough money to travel to Costa Rica in high school. And I traveled through Europe when I graduated. So that's some of what I remember.

C: If you could ask your ancestors one question, what would you ask?

M: That's a great question, what would I ask? Um, I mean in the theme of this, 00:25:00"was anybody else gay that you knew about?" LGBTQ whatever IA all the letters, were there others? and I don't know how far back you go in history, but I don't know any other identified gay person in my cousins or family members, uncles and aunts, I guess there was a little bit of a question about one of my uncles who was a bachelor all his life, he was a terrible alcoholic, I mean fun and nice but serious alcoholic, and died with emphysema too cause he smoked cigarettes, we used to ash his cigarette butts out, we'd stand in line waiting for him to finish his next chained smoked cigarette to just ash it out. he never got married but he also took care of his mother, so, was he a sacrificial child that had to do all that stuff? Was he gay? Did he have secret liaisons? I don't know. 00:26:00That was never clear. So, I would like to know, were there other gays? Who were they? Who were their partners? I think that'd be fascinating if I were going to ask a question. I don't really know what else to ask. It is said with all this dna collection we're doing now with ancestry.com or whatever, who knows what it'll be like when somebody checks this all out fifty to a hundred years from now but, it is said that on my father's side we're Irish, so his parents I believe came directly from Ireland and so as Irish as that is, whatever blend of all that in Ireland. on my mothers side, it was said that my grandfather, so my mother's father, was Thiess, that was German, and her mother, my grandmother was 00:27:00Kingston, so it was English. That's all I can tell you about my background. So, who were the ancestors? My father's side I understand came here closer to this side of the 1900s, my mother's grandparents and all those folks came from the other side, so in the 1800s they would have been in the New York area and my father's side in the Boston area. They came down. my fathers in advertising at the time my he and my mother came down to the Hampton/Newport News Virginia. He'd been in Boston, she in Baltimore and then they made their way to the peninsula and that's where they stayed and made their livings. And that's all I know. I don't know about the ancestors and I don't know what else to ask them.

C: Would you wanna keep talking about your family right now? or we can switch gears and talk about your community?

M: whatever you want to do is fine

C: well, lets just stay on the family, if you're comfortable, knd of your relationship with your siblings and your parents and if that was a positive or negative thing. and just kind of maybe your coming out experience.

M: So it's probably unfair to only give my side, so if somebody's going to do the research, can you find interviews or interview my siblings, or my parents, that kind of thing. So it'd be impossible now to interview my father, he died two summers ago. But my mother is still alive. We are estranged. So growing up, I was the elder sibling, right? I was the babysitter often times, it was i'm 00:29:00certain a struggle for my parents to earn a living, my father I said was early in advertising but then he was a stock broker then he was in insurance, and so he was always in that business line. My mother originally was a nurse, an RN and then became a real estate agent and very successful in that, so they worked very hard. In working hard, that put a lot of responsibility on me to be the babbysitter, to cook to clean to you know all that kind of stuff. So i think if you talk to some of my siblings they have some very negative memories of how strict I was. now was that because I was a strict ole queen? Or you know I don't know! Seriously. I guess I had higher expectations that things should be in order and things should be done this way and I was in charge in essence. So that was a hard thing to put on a child, elder or not. I don't know, people survive, 00:30:00we survive.

The house in a general way was very open, we always had exchange students in so had those kinds of experiences, some who stayed with us, some in the neighborhood, some that I knew in school that led to my traveling to Europe, and being able to stay in all these different countries with the people I had known all these years. We did not use racial slurs or things like that in our home, I remember the word "coloreds" used by my grandparents and aunts and uncles they came from Boston if they came visiting they'd say "well the coloreds are doing this and that" sort of thing. So, I heard those terms. I can tell you an interesting story about my partner in college if we make a note of it, about the collection of terms we shared one time. But, so it was just an open home. Friends could come in or out, the doors were always open, it was rare that we locked our doors. I guess at night we did. But, people had weird schedules, day 00:31:00and night and sometimes my mother worked at night sometimes she didn't. Sometimes we had friends coming over or not. There was always a refrigerator in the garage, and my friend Wesley -so I still stay in touch with Wesley and Dennis- so Wesley Williams lived across the street and Dennis Tillman-we'd call him Denny T, lived on the other side of Hampton but we went to school together. Andy Townsend lived in my neighborhood and really the four of us were great friends. I don't stay in touch with Andy as much as I do Wesley and Dennis. But Wesley would come across the street and grab a beer and come on in, and just sit down whether I was there or not, that's the kind of house we had, you just came in and hung out and watched tv or got something to eat. There was always, feeding people. so were, I'd say, very generous and philanthropic in that sense.

But then I had gone and come back from school, and I guess it was around 2001, 00:32:00it was the 9/11 event that we had here with the exploding buildings and terrorist threats and all that kind of stuff. At the time President George W Bush was in office and he was trying, as I recall to create a constitutional amendment to make LGBT folks kind of second class citizens. And I remember being home in the Hampton area and having supper with my parents, my father was there and he was talking about how he just loved his president just, strong loved this president all that kind of stuff just, whatever. And I picked up the bill and paid the bill for all the dinner, and so he was trying to be a big badass and was getting the waitress over "I need the bill!" she said "oh it's already been 00:33:00paid" he said, "what" I said, "yeah I already paid for it" I said "Democrats end up fucking to have to pay for everything anyway. So, I might as well just pay this too, I just can't believe that you'd support such a man, who would think that im second class citizen, first of all, I am a citizen of the United States of America and I am not second class. I refuse to be, you don't get my power" and I've said that before and I won't relinquish it. So, that was a big upset, and at the same time that that happened, that same weekend I was staying at my mother's place. She and my father separated, not in a bad way, he stayed in one apartment, she needed some space because she was really very, very busy and needed a place to kind of I guess decompress, so she had a nice little condo and I was staying there. But her father, my grandfather, Vincent, was very sick and was kind of in his last years process. My grandmother had died prior to that. My 00:34:00mother's mother, Alice Thiess. So he sat at the -so this goes back a little bit further- so when I was 12, when my grandfather stopped me from giving him a hug and a kiss, he said "boys don't kiss other boys or men." So, I'm a 12 year old grandson, what are you about? I've always hugged you, I've always given you a kiss, and now I'm not? So, he's always said stuff, things like that. But at this point, he said, he sat down, this ole crotchety thing he said "I'll give you a hundred dollars if you'll just marry a woman." and I was so enraged by that, that I took whatever money I had in my pocket, which was not a hundred dollars, but I took it and I said "I'll give you a hundred dollars to shut the fuck up!" and threw it on the table, and I picked up my stuff and walked out. And my 00:35:00mother was like *whining* "no no no! don't leave oh god I can't believe no I'm sorry!" ya know like, this craziness. and I was so enraged that I went down got in my car, and I drove across what was route 60 all the way clear across Virginia until I got to interstate 81, in the Virginia/Tennessee border, and came back to Asheville, and I have not spoken to them since.

And I didn't want to to, -and I'll tell you some prior history- that's the culmination of it. I didn't want to be a "he said she said" stuff so with my brothers and sisters, I just really don't communicate with them. I don't want this "mom said this" "Michael said that" or that kind of thing. So all these years they have tried to reach out, and on occasion I have sent back a thank you card or something. One of my brothers came to Asheville with his wife and children and I had breakfast with them, things like that have occured since 00:36:00then. But, my grandfather has since died, and my father now has died. But that was what exploded. Prior to that, I told you, we were a very open home, it didn't matter, there were gay jokes and that kind of stuff. My father said years ago he just didn't understand how a guy couldn't like a good set of tits, that's the kind of attitude he had, ya know, he didn't understand why a guy would like another guy or a girl a girl, stuff like that. But I do remember the coming out process. So, there were two kind of events that I'll relate here. On my way to go back to Belmont Abbey at on point I needed a ride to Richmond, i was getting a ride, somebody was coming back from new york, wherever they were they were gonna pick me up in Richmond. And my mother took me to Richmond, it was an hour and a half drive from Hampton/Newport News, and in the car she asked "Do you 00:37:00have a problem with women?" and I said "No, I have some great female friends, I love women, they're great! But if you're asking 'Am I gay?' yes, I am" and I always tease and say she about ran off the interstate *mimics tires screeching* you know? *chuckles* and she told me that I really shouldn't tell anybody else in the family, that this is just gonna be quiet and "you need to think more about this" and "maybe it's just phase" that kind of stuff so, I understood that to be quiet, not to tell anybody, so I didn't. And then I graduated and was back in Hampton, I don't know I was probably living there that summer or something I don't remember but I was living in the house and I was in the kitchen one afternoon cooking dinner and my two sisters were sitting at the kitchen table, we had this big big table that would seat all eight of us, and one of them said 00:38:00"someday you're a woman just a great husband." And that was what straw broke my back with them, and I turned around and I said "No, someday I'll make a man a good husband!" They're like "whaaat?" I said "I'm gay! I'm not gonna be married to a woman, I'll be married to a man if I'm gonna be married at all!" And so, they had questions and we talked and then I don't know my brother, a couple of 'em came in and we talked to them and told them and my mother came home and I said "look I've already told 'em all I'm gay so it's out" and she was a little disappointed you could see it in her face, but whatever. And then my father, it was my father and my brother Mark, Mark was not living there, he was in DC or somewhere, wherever he was living and working, he was the last to hear it, or hear it from me, but as my father came in I said, "look before you're the last one to know, I've come out and I'm a gay man." and he gave me a big hug and said he loved me and it was fine and no problem, that kind of thing. It was a couple years later then that all that exploded with the second class citizen and "such 00:39:00a strong president" and my grandfather, that sort of thing. And it may sound trivial to some to think "gosh you haven't talked to your family in all these years because of that?" It's just so negative, and I don't want the negativity. You know you'd call and speak to someone and it was always "whos sick" "whose dying" what's the problem, all the negative. I said "didn't you have one positive thing happen to you this week? This month? Can't you describe one positive thing? I don't want the negativity. Don't call me anymore." So, it's kind of the relationship where its a good, great, wonderful experience growing up overall; you ride some bumps and get through, and then life takes you different directions. I feel very lucky to be in this community, because I have a lot of great support, because it is such a positive community overall, and as many problems as I see and I face, I sometimes say, -I know you can't see it in the audio recording- less than an inch, *closes fingers together* is what my 00:40:00forefinger and my thumb are right now there's an inch, less than an inch of space, if I could give away this much of the goodness I've had in my life, the world would change dramatically. That's how much goodness I've had in my life. If I could give away just that much, of all the wonderful experiences and positive reinforcement I've had it would make others lives so much better. And that's a little bit of my story.

C: So what was your first visit to a gay related event like? What did you expect to find? Did the reality fit your expectations? Or was it completely different?

M: so I said early on I knew I was gay, and I remember at thirteen speaking to Jeff Merritt and saying "isn't it fun being gay?" and he saying, "shut up! We 00:41:00don't say that! We don't talk about that!" and I'm like, "we just did all that we've just done and you're telling me we're not gay? what? you can't say it?" So, he had his own issues to deal with. Really one of the first experiences that I had kind of in a media sense was the movie "Making Love" I don't know if you've ever seen that, but that was so beautiful to me. I remember sitting up, we had HBO at the time and I remember sitting up like at, whatever, 12 or 1 or 2 in the morning, knowing it was coming on and secretly watching it, and my sister came out, Maureen came out and said "what are you doing?" and I said "oh just watching this movie and whatever" and I think she may have watched it partly, I don't know. But that was one of the most powerful influential movies and events in my life, kind of a turning point. To talk about where I went in terms of a gay event, I guess the first real gay place I went, I knew some gay people I 00:42:00knew people with HIV and AIDS so this is 1981, HIV and AIDS hits the scene right? And I knew some people who were gay. I knew that they were potentially at risk. I knew some people with HIV growing up at that time in my life, I was a teenager. So, the first time I went to a gay bar, I was at Belmont Abbey and we went to a place called, what's it down there in Charlotte? Not Scandals, that's here, it was Scorpios! And I went with a group of people I went to school with and they were like "you wanna go to this gay bar?" and I'm like " I guess..okay whatever" and I went and I danced with this guy named Reggie Ealy, and he 00:43:00thought it was really cool that I would come out and dance with him. Ya know, okay, "Michael's cool" or whatever and still kinda questionable not knowing was I gay, not gay or whatever. And so then spring break he invited me to Atlanta where he was from and I wrote a note to him and described myself as a gay man and how fun it was to dance with him and he was reading it and he was like "you- you're gay?" and I'm like "yeah" and we became partners for a couple of years after that. So, that was my first, Scorpio dancing kind of being in the gay bar and seeing all the lights. But I grew up in the disco scene in sense of seeing movies and you saw all that and whatever else was going on, so it was music it was dance, but he took me in Atlanta to a couple places. I saw my first drag show in atlanta at a place called Illusions and I thought it was just the 00:44:00greatest things I was so interesting and so funny and so campy and flamboyant. Reggie and I actually walked down the street holding hands in Atlanta, this would have been in 85ish, somewhere around there. And that was really empowering, it felt good. So that was my first experience, and my first experiences in that sense.

C: I just want to hear a lot about in the 80's whenever there was all the AIDS/HIV crisis, and what LGBTQ organizations you may have worked with then and now, and that you've benefited from, or that you consider it an asset to communities, whether it be in Asheville or Atlanta, or Virginia or other places.

M: Well, one last thing I'll say about Reggie and I as partners, we had this one event, I was gonna return to it about the racial comments. At one point we asked each other what racial terms we heard growing up, and we were gonna make a list and then share the list with each other. So, I was making my list, making my list, making my list *pretending to write on the table* and he was just sitting there, and I was like "aren't you making your list?" he's like "I'm done." I was like "oh, I'm almost done" I'm making my list, I'm making my list. I am a white guy, he's a black guy, and he had like four or five terms he knew. Something like, "white cracker" "honky" "po buckra" and I don't know, "whitey" or something like that. I have the list still in my journal, in one of my journals. And I had a list so long of all the different terms I had heard and he was 00:46:00shocked. And that was a really poignant experience that we had together. So, we're still very very good friends right now. He's not well, he's got cancer at the same age as I. So, anyway, but we stay in touch, and we laugh and we talk and that kind of thing, so that's just to follow up on that point.

I was never involved in a lot of community organizations growing up, I was a workaholic so I worked. I didn't do a lot, I was a part of school stuff, I was in German club and the Drama club and i dont know im trying to think if i was in something called the Philosophical club with Mr. Evans those kinds of things. Those were just clubs at school mostly. So, I wasn't involved in a lot of LGBT stuff. In college when I went back to VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University, I did get involved in some advocacy and some activities, and a little bit more 00:47:00prevention kind of you know, having condoms around and handing them out. And I think I went to my first gay pride march when I was at VCU in Richmond. Felt very nervous about it, being in the crowd, people yelling and screaming at you from the sides but also being very empowered to be with people as part of the LGBTQ community. So I just wasn't involved in that. When I got here [Asheville], I came here told you '92, but I also went to the big gay liberation pride march in DC in 1993, and came back here even more kind of encouraged and empowered. And I wrote a letter to the editor right when I got back about coming out as a 00:48:00gay man and being here in Asheville as a gay man, openly gay man, looking forward to working with the community and seeing how we collaborate and all that kind of stuff. There was a group called SALGA, Southern Appalachian Lesbians and Gays I think is what it stood for, they were an advocacy group that are no longer around but you could find history about them. There's a newspaper that was called Community Connections, I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but there are archival copies of Community Connections. Lisa Morphew and Jerry Connor were involved and other people in the community, but you'd find SALGA information there. There was something called CLOSER the Community Liaison Organization for Service Education Reform I believe is what it stood for and they met for years, Joan Marshall and Dan Marshall facilitated that group until 00:49:00they passed away. And it also is defunct now, but it used to meet at All Souls Cathedral down in Biltmore Village for years and years and years. So, you met lots of people through those organizations in particular. And this has always been AshSHEville people describe the "she" part of it so lots and lots of lesbians have been here all these years and they're very powerful in terms of politics, in terms of business, in terms of advocacy. The gay community guys always involved sort of thing, and it's such an important part of our total economic impact on the community, developing and redeveloping neighborhoods and all that kind of stereotypical stuff, generalizations about what the gays do, they come to the neighborhood and make things new again. They've opened 00:50:00businesses now, so you've got lots of businesses gay friendly businesses, sometimes they would have a rainbow sticker. There used to be lots and lots and lots of rainbow stickers on cars and businesses and windows. Don't see as many of them as you did in the 90's, but there was a place Rainbows End I think it was called, was the gay bookstore here, they had the flags and you could get magazines and you could get candles and all that kind of stuff. So, I'm involved as I can be in whatever ways I can.

HIV and AIDS in the early 80's was very scary. I remember in 1986 when I recall that Peter Jennings did a big show on ABC called "AIDs in America" and I sat in my parents bedroom and watched the television, that whole show, nobody else in my family did. They were watching whatever they were in the den. But I just remember being fascinated by it all, saddened by it all, and had no idea that I 00:51:00would end up in this line of work, all of these years now having now been named what's called "the Rubber Man".

I'm a guy that brings out the condoms, and the AIDS guy, and the needle exchange that we started in 1994 with Marty Prairie, who was my boss and my mentor at the time. He died of AIDS related causes in 2001. So, I've been very lucky to be involved in the lives of those who are ending their life spans here, I've been part of care teams, I've been there when people have taken their last breaths. I had a partner named Michael Warren who also had been an advocate locally in the community. One of the first men diagnosed with GRID Gay related Immune Deficiency or AIDS, and he was my partner in the last year, year and a half of 00:52:00his life.

Why I was in his life, why he was in mine, again, these are the kind of things that come my way that I can't explain or understand but, just a powerful man, and so I'm just in the field.

I see it's changed a lot, the death and dying that was part of the early epidemic is not so much so in this country or in western civilizations. In countries that are facing terrible poverty and low income stressors, you see lots of people still being infected and lots of death and dying.

Even though there are great medications now, there's somewhere between 15 and 20 million people who are able to access the antiviral therapies now that are life sustaining. Sometimes they're generics or the third tier; they're not necessarily the new medications that we have available here in the high income countries such as ours.

But people- if they're willing to take the medications, it's chemotherapy, right? These are chemicals, they're very strong.. but they do help sustain people's lives. So, there's great hope to live a full life span 30-40 years after your diagnosis kind of thing. And there's something now, "You equals You", "undetectable equals untransmittable", so if you take your medications and sustain a biologic suppression for six months or more, you don't have to disclose your HIV status.

For example, you don't even have to use condoms anymore, by the science, -that depends on state laws whether you do or do not but here in North Carolina for example we changed our hiv control measures in 2018 to say that you don't have to disclose if you've repressed you're virus, and you have an undetectable viral load for six months or more. It's still recommended that you talk about it with your partner and that you use condoms in case there are other STD risks but that's the science. So, things like that have changed.

Over the years I've been to the national aids conferences, I'm amazed to see who's there, how many women are affected by HIV and AIDS worldwide. Here women 00:54:00have made great strides in reducing the number of women infected each year, or living with HIV and AIDS. Closer probably to 20 percent of all people living with HIV and AIDS are women in this country, and new infections among women are much lower than it was.

Intravenous drug use represented a third of HIV cases historically in this country, depends on where you are- if you're in the Ukraine it's probably closer to I don't know, 70 or 80 percent. But we've been able to bring HIV related infections related to intravenous drug use down to under ten percent. For the most part in the state it runs between 6 and 8 percent of new HIV case reports, generally speaking. So, there have been great strides, great interventions, still nowhere near finding a cure or ending this epidemic. It'll either burn itself out or some smart scientist, chemist may find that magic potion, I don't 00:55:00know. But science right now, scientists are looking at thirty years from now, so they are asking, "What is this gonna look like in 2050?" So, they don't anticipate it going away anytime soon.

C: So how'd you get started at WNCAP?

M: At the march on washington 1993 I stopped at a booth that was selling the freedom necklaces, have you ever seen those? They were like a leather strap and they had the rainbow colors in rings, these metal rings, and so I ordered 200 of them and was gonna sell them 1 for 12 or 2 for 20 at Scandals. And I was gonna give 20 percent of the proceeds to the aids project everybody was giving 20 percent of the proceeds to the AIDs project in our community. And Art Fryer, the founder of Scandals, the former owner because he's dead and gone now, said that 00:56:00if I were going to be selling them there and had this sign that you were making a donation, you had to go and speak to this guy named Marty Prairie. He had been the guy that was bringing the condoms and kind of doing the outreach for WNCAP through the education department. I said "Yeah I'll go talk to him that's fine" so I took a donation and went to speak to this guy named Marty Prairie at the AIDs project and he was like "Yeah yeah yeah we'll take your donation, but is that your pickup truck out there?" and I said "yeah" he said "can you help us move this lady's furniture tomorrow?" and "can you sit at our bellshare booth?" And would you volunteer for this that or the other thing? and I was like "yeah whatever okay great" and he said you want a job? and I said "doing what?" I'm always looking for a job- I'm a what? A workaholic. And I said sure I'll do a job, whaddya got?" He said "street outreach" I said "Sure I'll do it. What is it?" I didn't even know what he was talking about. I have a degree in Business and a degree in Spanish, it had nothing to do with public health. But he became, not just my friend and my mentor, but a great boss and just a really influential 00:57:00person in my life. He was an openly HIV positive, gay Native American from South Dakota from Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, and as a young man he left the reservation and ended up in the bigger cities of California, so LA and San Francisco, San Diego, and he saw it all he was devastated by it all, but living as he did to survive he got hiv and got hepatitis C and made his way here to Western North Carolina. He found his sisters here in North Carolina, they were living here at the time. He got tired and he found his recovery and his sobriety as he put it here in the mountains of Western North Carolina, so when I'm speaking out in groups I always say I know it's possible to be sober and have your recovery here in mountains, I've seen it happen and Marty Prairie was that guy. He was so influential in my life that in 1995 working for him I stopped drinking alcohol, I just didn't want to smell like liquor around him, so I stopped and I haven't had a drink since. And that's all it took. But I'm always 00:58:00very grateful to him for that and I always acknowledge him when I'm speaking at alcohol or drug treatment centers, or in prisons, or in school settings, things like that. We started what was called the Needle Exchange Program of Asheville in 1994 because he had gone through that, and I was doing street outreach on the streets of downtown Asheville in what was called the Grove Arcade.

It was a public sex environment and I was tripping over needles! In downtown Asheville at the time. And back then, I'll leave this alone, if we ever exchanged a thousand needles in a year we thought we were pretty hot snot, in 2016 when it finally became legalized here in North Carolina to actually operate a needle exchange, so all those years that we operated it was completely illegal, open about it, we were never underground, we were wide open about it, on TV and radio stations and newspapers and interviews like this, but in 2016 we went through 512,000 needles; a half a million needles walked out of the office 00:59:00in WNCAP, at the Western North Carolina AIDS Project. And we were always out of stock too, we were often times out of stock so we could easily do a million I'm sure. My advocacy now is that all 85 county health department locations in the state of North Carolina become that one place I can for sure go and get my access to needles and proper disposal and get a vaccine if I need or treatment if I want it, you know, that sort of thing that all county health departments kick in, they still are not, and it'd be interesting to find out when somebody seeks this history, is needle exchange something common? Do people still use needles? Have they moved in a society, kind of societally as has happened in Amsterdam where people mostly smoke their drugs now, so they're not using needles like they used to? I mean Amsterdam, the Netherlands got on this epidemic early. They made sure people had condoms, they made sure to talk 01:00:00openly, they made sure that people were not having to reuse or had barrier access to needles. Will we ever get there? I don't know. But that's how I got started at WNCAP, simply by making that donation from Scandals and those freedom necklaces.

C: You said that it was illegal to do the needle exchange, how were you guys able to be so public about it and not get in trouble? Or did you get in trouble?

M: No, we didn't get in trouble, people always worried that we were going to be arrested somehow. Marty and I were boisterous we were strong, we gave nobody our power! He was stronger than I. So we travelled around the country and we visited needle exchanges because I was like "yeah! let's start it! let's do it!" ya know? When I reported seeing needles on the street he said we needed to start a needle exchange. "Okay yeah, I'm in it! What is it?" I didn't know! He'd been to 01:01:00the big cities, I didn't know what that was. So we traveled to Baltimore for example, and Milwaukee, and Chicago and LA, and San Francisco San Diego, number of cities we went to and visited. The needle exchanges, how they were operated and they were all very different. Some were for women only, I mean no children no men, some were mobile units, somewhere delivery services, some were next to a health department or on a winnebago, kind of a RV thing. Some were fixed sites next to a health department or a hospital, they were all just very different. The one in Hollywood was set up for youth, runaway youth. They said there's anywhere between 15 and 20 thousand runaway youth anyday of the week in Hollywood. So we came back with stacks of information, and we made a presentation to what was called the North Carolina Minority Health Advisory Counsel at the time and Dr. Rhonda Levinge was the medical director here in 01:02:00North Carolina and Secretary Howl was the health secretary. And I don't know if there are 50 or a hundred people around this huge room and table and Marty and I chose a corner and we just took over. And for a couple hours we either complimented or contradicted everything the state said. They said "well we don't need needle exchange because we do bleach distribution" and we're like "yeah but the literature right here says that that's not really affective when I have to bleach my needle and I've got to use the needle it keeps bending and its harder" A needle is a one time use item, if you look at the federal guidelines for needle use its one time use instrument. You're supposed to properly dispose of it after it's used, that's why at the hospital you get your vaccination or at the health department you get your flu shot, they put 'em in the sharps container, don't just give it back to you and say "go back and use this or I'm gonna keep this out and use it for the next three people" That's the policy you know, so we put up all these weird barriers. Anyway, so we were open about it, we spoke to Lenny Senec was the mayor at the time we met with Chief Annarino, 01:03:00Will Annarino was the Chief of Police, she was the Mayor he was the Chief of Police. We spoke to governors all the way up the line, we spoke to George Bond, who was our health director at the time, very supportive. Got on an organization called Project Access who's about local health access for people who are uninsured or underinsured from which the MInnie Jones Health Center has come, things like that. The ABCCM health clinic, things in our community that provide services to help care providers. So we were just out there, we spoke on UNC TV, did a great interview, talking about it, had to show how needle exchange happened with kind of blurred out faces, we did secondary exchange with some of the people who are in the community. I've never stuck a needle in my arm so I don't know, I'll smoke a joint with you once and awhile maybe if it's good, but I just don't do drugs like that. But we would give them needles, they would 01:04:00exchange them with their friends, and bring the dirties back to us, and we would get the new and that kind of thing. That's how it started, we were just very open about it. Did a couple of articles here at the Blue Banner, you could probably look in the archives of the Blue Banner and see, I can't remember what years right now, but there must be some archival information. Over the years I've done several interviews with reporters, journalists from the Blue Banner, Citizen Times, and Mountain Express. We were always out there, that's how we did it.

C: This kind of goes back to what you were talking about your partner in college earlier, did being a part of the LGBTQ community bring you in contact of people with different class and race backgrounds? And how did that impact your circumstances or outlook?

M: Yeah I guess it did, we're like tin cans, we're everywhere right? We're a 01:05:00part of all communities, and even when people think that there are no gay people in their community or in their culture or in their religious affiliation, there are, it's a part of nature. And so there's been a great movement in Africa, the LGBT community in Africa and the stressors that they are experiencing. Raping women thinking lesbians are gonna become straight after being raped, beating gay men over the head and killing them for loving another man, transgender people we know stonewall event you know we kind of memorialize people who have died from the discrimination and what they face. So it's really hard in this country to be LGBTQIA, all of it, but around the world it's much harder in many, many places, and so particularly at the International AIDs conferences you have some of the 01:06:00most vulnerable populations represented, whether it's LGBT, or intravenous drug users, or sex workers, or those incarcerated, and those with mental health issues, and the young, and girls, and so it's just all the vulnerable populations. What are we doing? Why can't we seem to work in a more positive way and see that were all just sharing this space and place called Earth? Ya know, take care of each other, we've got resources to do so, we've got the knowledge and the science and all that. So I've been around lots of people, from the pisselegant chandelier event, to down in the dirt under the bridge hustler, ya know? I love em all. I'll hug every single one of 'em it doesn't matter to me. I'm not that person that is one way in front of you and one way around behind 01:07:00you. You know if you wanna hug me, okay. If you're stinky and homeless and a hustler okay, so I can go wash myself if I'm dirty now and it smells on me or something. Same thing for a pissleegant event, your cologne or your perfume gets on me and I have a violent reaction -with my olfactory nerve, I can't stand heavy colognes or perfumes- and when they get on me I become obsessive and wanna get it off of me, get, oh gosh take this sweatshirt off! Get this shirt off me you hugged me! Can't you just put it on your clothes, I mean your skin not your clothes? So, I've met all sorts of people, wonderfully philanthropic, people with struggles, people of any background or culture. I don't know what culture I've not been around or experienced to some extent.

C: Did you know Holly Boswell?

M: Absolutely

C: Okay, could you tell us some stories about them?

M: Sure, her last partner was Jennifer Barge you may know, Jennifer and I still go out and have breakfast or lunch and talk on the phone. But I knew Holly over the years, kind of not deeply until she and Jennifer were together because Jennifer and I had met at a couple of events and she said "oh you need to know my partner Holly Boswell" I said "I know Holly what're you talking about?" so at that point we actually interacted some more I would go over to their home and I had dinner and parties. And there's lots of archival information about her, and I think you will probably speak to or know Yvonne Cook Riley? Is that name familiar to you? So Yvonne Cook Riley is one of the first transgender activists along with Holly, and there's lots and lots of archival information. The work 01:09:00that Holly did, who she was, her activities and activism and creativity in the 70's and the 80's. She was just a free spirited person and a great writer, very creative person who saw humanity in a spiritual light I guess. I don't know what to say except she was always very accepting of me, always hugged me, got some fun laughter out of her, I just knew her like that.

C: I know you've mentioned many people, but are there any other individuals you want to talk about who impacted you in the Western North Carolina community?

M: I do hope that you'll speak to somebody by the name of Rosie Coats, she 01:10:00currently is a bartender at O'Henry's, the oldest gay bar in North Carolina it claims. Truly believe it's close to it if it's not THE oldest. So, Rosie Coats has vast history of people in this community and she saw the first guys coming back with AIDS you know? They had gone to big cities they came back to die. And she was there at the time for the fundraisers to help pay for a bill or two, house somebody. She was there when it all started, when WNCAP started. The Western North Carolina AIDs Project came out of O'Henry's, and a gathering of people living with HIV and AIDs and their allies here in this community, so that's 1986. She's just got every name and she's probably got videos, and 01:11:00probably has some photographs, and she could tell you stories, it'd be worth spending twenty hours with her, recording her history. And Jerry Connor, perhaps getting in touch with him sooner than later because he's facing some health issues. He currently operates what we know as Gay Asheville NC.com are you familiar with that website? That's Jerry Connor, very activated in many, many things. He's got lots of history. I don't know how to get in touch so much with a guy named TJ Hanes, but he was the manager at scandals with Art Fryer, TJ Hanes. He works currently at Lowes over on Smokey Park Highway, but he works a 01:12:00morning shift so it's really early, and I just don't know whether he would be open to a discussion or not, maybe, but he keeps lots of history. I have not been in touch with Lisa Morphew in a number of years, I don't know if Lisa Morphew is still around, but she was the editor and publisher of the Community Connections newspaper, she used to live in Montford. So, there's a lot of people you don't see or hear from, they come and they go, they do different things. Blue Ridge Pride has been lots of fun because that's that one day that people seem to come out of the woodwork you're like *gasps* "What are you doing? How you been? You're still in town?" you know that kind of thing, its joyous. Or a big funeral brings people out. There's just so many people I would say to interview and do it now because if not, you lose that piece of that history too. 01:13:00But I think Rosie is a really good connection, and she could name lots of names. And Jherri upstairs, your librarian -maybe as we leave out of here we can at least touch base and maybe get a phone number- he'd be a great interview just in a general way. So, I dont know there's just lots of people and they've each got lots of history. I don't know if a guy named Earl Davis would be willing to be interviewed, maybe. He's been around I could try to ask him and maybe connect you by email. Earl Davis, he and his partner Bobby have been together forever, I 01:14:00had supper with them once a month and you know tell them about stuff like this so maybe he would.

C: So just some wrapping up stuff, what has provided you the greatest satisfaction in life?

M: Hmmm, the greatest satisfaction in life, I guess every day I am given something that enriches me, this starts my day beautifully today, Corey thank you. I feel quite enriched, not only to be your first interview but to be a part of this project, that will hopefully add to the flavor of our history here in 01:15:00this region. So, I'm enriched every day, so I don't know. I go through my phases of you know, the moon, and ups and downs or whatever, but truly I am enriched everyday and I continuously ask, why am i in this person's life? Why is that person in my life? Why did I get asked? Why was I there? What can I offer that somebody would even care about? And yet, I'm also a little bit conceited I have to say, because I told ya I dumped six boxes of archival information over at the North Carolina Room at the Pack Library, I want my journals to be preserved. I 01:16:00think that some of my communications, my columns as What The Rubber Man Wrote, I wrote for ten years, I wrote that column What the Rubber Man Wrote and I'd ask people "Did you read What the Rubber Man Wrote?" and they're like "what???" and I'm like "I guess you didn't." But I wrote columns, and my partner Paul Aarons was a great editor, he polished things that I wrote. We've been together for 17 years now, and he lives in Tallahassee, Florida. He was formerly the medical director for state of Florida's bureau of HIV, AIDS, and Hepatitis, so we worked in the same field. I'm going down to visit him this weekend ya know? It's an 8 hour drive but it's worth it. And we just, he's so integrated into his community and I in mine that we just don't see a way to move to the other city you know? He brings joy to me and I'm grateful for him and all that he does. He's a great, 01:17:00philanthropic, kind, generous, thoughtful, considerate, strong person, and he doesn't drink alcohol either; he might taste a sip, I don't care, I'm not political about it, drink what you want! But he'll taste a sip of something different if you've got something, he'll taste like the last drop of the bottle. Some kind of weird beer or something like that. So, we get along, travel well, we've shared many many experiences in life. His parents, you know he's 73 so he's 20 years my senior, his parents were very open and accepting of me and they've recently died in the last couple of years, in their late nineties. So I guess I'm just enriched by the experiences that are offered to me. The fact that Marty would take me to his home in Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, one of the poorest places in this country, to see his culture to understand, to give me a better perspective on life. Trisha, who she is in my life and her brother Jerry 01:18:00who died two years ago, I was able to speak at his funeral, there must have been 6 or 700 people at this funeral, they had this huge event he was that kind of a guy, so influential. I think "would that many people ever come to my funeral?" what influence do I have? So I'm involved with people who fulfill me like that, and I'm grateful to every day, if I leave this afternoon, if I leave this earth tomorrow, don't cry over me, mmnhmmm it's been a good run, I've had a good run, I've been places I've been to all but two continents, I've never been to South America or Antarctica, those are the two continents I've not been to at this point in my life. So who can say that? What do I have to be ungrateful for? What am I without? And if something comes my way and is a challenge, I'm okay with 01:19:00that, let's see if I can make it through, bring it on. I'll try to do my best, that's all.

C: what do you think is some of the most valuable or influential things your generation has done for the upcoming LGBTQ generations, and what do you think remains to be done?

M: gosh, I don't think we've done enough, I don't we've done enough around HIV and AIDs prevention, if 70 percent of HIV infections still occur among men who have sex with men we have not done enough, I have not done enough. I can't say we have done enough, and yet I'm a realist because I've been doing this long enough to know that people who walk out the doors and do what they want anyway no matter what I say, so my expectations may be high, but i'm a realist and have come to terms with that. We have, I guess my generation has paved some roads, 01:20:00but I also think we could stand out of the way, all of these next generations of folks coming up they're powerful, they're able, their voices are being heard, they're great with technology, I'm not I still have a 33 year old Toyota pickup truck, I still have a plug in the wall phone, I don't have cell phone, I can do email and use a computer but I kind of push back on all of the technology, so I'm not part of social media. As I gray out and wrinkle I think that I've not done enough to have somebody step into my shoes, to be the next quote on quote "Rubberman" the AIDs guy, the needle exchange guy, and part of that is because people don't see what we saw. The devastation of HIV and AIDs for the 01:21:00intellectual community, for the economics of what lgbt folks did or do. We lost a lot of creativity, and I don't think people have wiped up enough diarrhea or vomit and have not been there to hold the hand of people taking that last breath to see their physicality diminish to bones and skin, to cry. I don't think we've done enough. We've done some, I think I'll leave it in the hands of the next generations to take it to the next step. I know generations before me were strong, and the drag community I think does a lot, has done a lot, continues to do a lot, but it too is changing. I'll watch and see what happens, I respect the 01:22:00next steps. I'll be involved as much as I'm asked to be involved, and I'm willing to be asked and I'm willing to give what I can, if it's helpful great, if its not, eh, move on to the next interview.

C: thank you so much michael for sharing and coming to meet with me today, this has been incredible to hear all of this.