Oral History with Susan Wilson, Part 2 (with Judy Rudolph)

Kaylin P:Okay. So one of the things that I wanted to ask about was your role in the LGBTQ elders community here in Western North Carolina. I wanted to hear more about that

Susan:Well, we have been to several events and I work at Council On Aging, but we have not been that involved. I know Judy at one point was talking to Bob Thomas [Sulo] about, as was I guess Wendy Marsh at one point. But there was a group that was sort of a sisters helping seniors group that were nurses. And one 00:01:00of their nurses and also maybe social workers who were trying to, because there are so many in the LGBT older community that have gone back in the closet because they were afraid that being gay is going to affect the care that they get. They don't want to be abused. And there are still people out there that they are afraid will abuse them.

Susan:And so this group had gotten started thinking there would be LGBT people who would be more comfortable getting care from a group of women who probably, I 00:02:00don't know this for sure, but who would probably have been very involved when HIV first got started, or didn't get started when that whole issue ... Hey sweetie.

Judy Rudolf:Hi.

Kaylin P:Hi.

Susan:Let's move over to that table. How about that?

Kaylin P:Yeah, that sounds great.

Susan:Back in the early days, or not even the early days, but throughout the majority of the AIDS Epic epidemic, one group that stepped up and stepped in as caregivers and people who would run many of these AIDS patients around were lesbians who understood that there was a large group within community, 00:03:00especially the medical community, that would not touch them, would not stay with them. Normal caregivers didn't want anything to do with them. Many of them had been thrown out of their own families.

Susan:I remember attending a PFLAG meeting one time and there was a local mother that was talking about how her son came out and he said, "Mom and dad, the good news is I'm gay. The bad news is I have HIV." And he's one of the few that we knew from from back then back in the 90s who was still alive. And last year when they brought the quilt to Asheville and the Asheville Gay Men's Corps thing, we 00:04:00ran into him again. Yeah.

Susan:I'll wait till Judy gets back to talk more about our involvement in the elder gay community. Part of it there is ... She can speak more to it. There's a group that is older lesbians. When we got here, we were not necessarily young. I was 33 and Judy was 42. We had an eight year old son. So a lot of what we were 00:05:00doing was also trying to find other gay and lesbians who are parents that we could talk to because we had this very crazy son and we were all so in this unique situation where we couldn't necessarily go to through normal channels because a lot of people that we would seek help from would say, "Well it's because you're lesbians that your son is this crazy." And it's like, "No, our son's been okay with our relationship since early on and that isn't the issue."

Susan:He was ADHD, had been diagnosed with a conduct disorder, behavior 00:06:00disorder. A lot of that I think was just simply because people didn't want to deal with all of his energy and so they just labeled him. And he was actually a pretty sweet kid. He just had no impulse control. It was like, "Oh, dear." What would you say our involvement in the older LGBT community has been? Just you were someone that Bob Thomas Sulo I think had contacted at one point. Would you talk to that?

Judy Rudolf:Ask me the question.

Kaylin P:Okay, so I was just going to ask about your involvement with LGBTQ elders.

Judy Rudolf:Okay. I'm going to back up a tiny bit because there's a little bit of background to that.

Susan:Let me also mention that this is my wife Judy Rudolf.

Kaylin P:Yes. Thank you.

Judy Rudolf:I worked for Legal Aid Senior Law Project and I was an attorney on the health log and I noticed that we had almost zero LGBT people calling that helpline. And so I became concerned about what's going on with our elder LGBTQ community that they're not calling. I know they have legal problems. I mean, come on.

Judy Rudolf:So I met with Bob Thomas Sulo and we talked about how difficult it is because especially older LGBT people are terrified of the system, of the man, people, because they've been so badly treated by the system. So that's a 00:08:00concern, sort of at a professional level as well as personal. So when I retired, Susan and I became more active with the group here. We've been to several of their outings. And it's funny. I walked in to the picnic the first time I went, "Oh, I know you and I know you." Because there were a lot of people that we've known over the years. So it's not a group that ... It's just part of the community. They're not a group that's an outlier is what I'm trying to say. It's a group that's integrated into the LGBT community and it's really great that we have this because older LGBT people have some pretty discreet legal problems and other problems.

Judy Rudolf:Housing is big for everybody, but it's particularly big for older people. LGBT people are not welcome in a lot of nursing homes and senior 00:09:00housing. They're mistreated. We are mistreated. And so that's one issue. Social security issues are the same for older LGBT people than anybody else. Healthcare, all of that. All those are the same kinds of problems. So getting together as a group like this, it's really important to share what our problems are and what solutions that we've all found.

Judy Rudolf:That's the long answer to your question.

Kaylin P:All right. Thank you.

Judy Rudolf:Hold on just one second. Let's wait. Okay.

Kaylin P:Yeah. Judy, I was also curious if you could give us a little bit of background about yourself and your life, where you grew up and how you came to Asheville. Because I know we got this from Susan in our last interview.

Judy Rudolf:Well, I'm 71 so there's a lot of background there. I became aware of 00:10:00my attraction to women when I started college. I guess I was 18 and went through a lot of my adult life, some pretty scary situations. I was afraid they were going to take my children away. And there were all kinds of threats like that. As a teacher, terrified somebody would find out and I would lose my job. So I went through a lot of that sort of stuff.

Susan:And this was back in the late sixties, early seventies.

Judy Rudolf:Well, seventies and eighties.

Susan:Okay.

Judy Rudolf:Okay. And then I went to law school. I met Susan. And I'm sure she's told you about that story.

Kaylin P:Yeah.

Judy Rudolf:And so when we graduated from law school, Susan went back to Atlanta and I was trying to figure out where to go. I did not want to live in Atlanta. 00:11:00Too many family people too close.

Kaylin P:Especially mine.

Judy Rudolf:Yes. Well, some of mine too. And my dad was living in Black Mountain at the time and I hadn't been around my dad much. Not because there was any problem, but just the physical location. But I hadn't been around him much in the last 20 years or so. So I decided that I would come to Black Mountain and then Susan followed and that's how we ended up there. We immediately ...Susan:I was living with a couple of fellow law school graduates because we were talking about maybe forming a firm. And one morning Judy showed up with a bouquet of roses and asked me if I was-

Judy Rudolf:No, it was carnations. I couldn't afford roses.

Susan:And so that's what I did. And my parents were appalled.

Judy Rudolf:Oh yes. Her poor family. Anyhow, so we immediately became involved with Closer. Have you talked about Closer at all?

Susan:I did.

Judy Rudolf:And we got involved through Joan and Dan because we were told when you move to Asheville, you call this number. And so they invited us and we went. We went and I think we took ... Did we bring ... I think we even brought Nick.

Susan:To Closer?

Judy Rudolf:Yeah.

Susan:Oh yeah. We did.

Judy Rudolf:And it was really kind of cute because many of the, especially the gay men were just thrilled because a lot of them growing up, or even now could 00:13:00no longer be around their younger siblings. And so they finally had somebody that they could play with and be a big brother to in a way that they had not been able to.

Susan:Yeah, true.

Judy Rudolf:And it was really kind of fun. They thoroughly enjoyed him and he thoroughly enjoyed them.

Judy Rudolf:So when we came to Asheville I'd come from this background of clear discrimination and negative things. Susan hadn't really had that. So, but for me, this community was so open at that time. I mean, the folks I ran into were so open and opening and welcoming and it was great. So we became involved with a lot of things in Asheville. And it seemed like nobody blinked an eye. The legal community, people said, "Oh, stay in the closet, don't talk to anybody." And we 00:14:00didn't. We just were who we were. And the legal community, they may have behind closed doors talked about us, but to our face, they were fine. They treated us as any other attorney.

Judy Rudolf:So we found Asheville to be really a great place for us. It was a great place to raise our son. The school was fine with us co-parenting him. So we really, it was just a perfect place for us to be. And then also the church was a perfect church for us. Still is.

Susan:Yep.

Judy Rudolf:It just depends on the day sometimes. But anyhow, but coming to Asheville was just a perfect ... Well, it was a good decision all the way around really. I don't know if I can say anything else.

Kaylin P:Perfect. Because the other [inaudible] ... Oh, I'll wait.

Susan:I'm glad we came here because it's quiet.

Susan:I tell you one thing that Judy didn't mention is that she grew up in a military family. And so she had traveled quite a bit and changed neighborhoods and schools.

Judy Rudolf:I have five children in my family and the family joke was when we moved, we took the neighborhood with us. Every time my dad was transferred, we'd all go. But surprisingly, even though he was in the military, he was very welcoming to Susan and okay with our relationship.

Susan:Yeah.

Kaylin P:That's great.

Susan:When my father died a few years after we moved up here, he sat down with me and said, "I can't take the place of your father, but if you need to have 00:16:00kind of a father figure to talk to or ask questions of, I'd like to be that person."

Judy Rudolf:I didn't know he said that to you.

Susan:Yeah. We're sitting in their kitchen. Yep.

Judy Rudolf:[inaudible].

Susan:Yeah, she did.

Judy Rudolf:I really did not realize that.

Susan:Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to go there, but there were some sad things towards the end of Judy's father's life. And I think that-

Judy Rudolf:Doesn't really have anything to do with this story.

Susan:No, and I think that there were some cognitive issues that both he and his wife were dealing with. And both of them were very strong people who were used to being ...Judy Rudolf:Strong means stubborn.

Susan:But that was part of it. But they also, in their own way on the head, had 00:17:00been extremely bright. Both of them had their own professions. And I think when their cognitive decline started to happen, it scared the fool out of them. And didn't just scare them, but one of their ways of coping was anger. And things did not go well towards the end.

Susan:At any rate, in some respects, we're becoming more involved in the elder LGBT community than we have been. Simply because most of the time ... It's always interesting ... When you are having a ceremony and people keep remarking 00:18:00on how many heterosexual people are there, it's like, this would be odd how? Why do people keep remarking on this? And I guess it's because a lot of people didn't feel comfortable inviting many of their heterosexual friends or were not out to some of their heterosexual friends. I just kept thinking it was kind of hilarious that people kept finding that to be such an odd thing.

Judy Rudolf:Susan and I both have been intentionally, to a certain extent, not solely involved with the LGBT community. One time there was a church.

Susan:MCC.

Judy Rudolf:MCC Church that formed. We went and realized that that just wasn't for us. That we don't feel like our community should only be LGBT people, that we have lots of relationships with lots of different friends and we like it that way.

Judy Rudolf:So yes, we were involved with the LGBT elders, but Susan worked for Council On Aging and I volunteer with them and we belong to also church because we want to be part of the greater community, not just a small segment of it.

Susan:Well, and also, I don't know if ... I think I mentioned this previously and it may be part of what got lost. When we had our first ceremony, we went to 00:20:00our [inaudible] first response was, "Oh my God, do you know what you're doing to your families?"

Judy Rudolf:Supportive.

Susan:Well, and it was a little disturbing because we knew he had a lesbian daughter who had a son. So it's kind of like that that's his first response is kind of disturbing.

Susan:We went to our Bishop who said, "Well, I wish I could allow it, but no." And he then said, "But let me pray with you."

Judy Rudolf:The Bishop of the wonderful. Very much let us know that he understood the problem, the dilemma we were in. He was working within the confines of the church to change some things, but he couldn't because he had certain ... I don't know if responsibilities is the word.

Susan:Responsibilities and ...Judy Rudolf:Well, certain commitments. He was 00:21:00committed to the Episcopal church so he couldn't really go outside their edicts. But what he could do was work from the inside to change things. And he let us know that he wasn't saying no to us because he personally had a problem. He was saying no to us because the greater church said no at that time. But things changed and he knew they would change. And was working to do that.

Judy Rudolf:Which was a really good response. We are smart. We understood that no was the answer at that time, but we also really appreciated his willingness to say I wish I could. I really wish I could.

Susan:And where I was actually going with that ...Judy Rudolf:Sorry.

Susan:Is after that, the church as a whole began a dialog on human sexuality. And there were materials that were created and passed out to different churches 00:22:00and all souls participated. And we were part of a group at the time called integrity that was-

Judy Rudolf:I forgot about integrity.

Susan:A LGBT ...Judy Rudolf:Group within the church.

Susan:Right.

Judy Rudolf:Yeah.

Susan:And different denominations had different groups. They weren't called integrity, they had different names. But ...Judy Rudolf:It was the Episcopal one. [crosstalk].

Susan:Right. And when those discussions were going on, we made a very conscious effort to be a part of those discussions. And because everybody was breaking off into small groups, we made a point of having at least one of our members in each one of those groups so that when discussions happened, and when discussions 00:23:00happened around human sexuality, LGBT, all of that, that we would let them know that there was somebody from that community who was there and we couldn't speak for the whole community, but we could speak about our experience and we would answer questions so that in a sense, the propaganda around why you needed to be afraid of LGBT people was just amazing.

Susan:I had a friend who later came out as gay who went to First Baptist Church in Atlanta, which was the Reverend Charles Stanley's church. And Charles Stanley was a big wig in the Southern Baptist conference. And one day when my friend was in church, he walked up to a couple, picked up their young child and said, "We 00:24:00need to keep these children safe because LGBT people are coming for your kids." Well, thanks. I got enough of my own to raise. And it was disheartening that there really was somebody who felt that way. But part of why we wanted to be visible and why we wanted to be a part of these discussions and not remain hidden or only associating with our own kind was because we were not going to be able to move forward until people got to know LGBT people and realize that we were just people.

Susan:We were not these strange people with this bizarre agenda that the Charles Stanley of the world were preaching or the very prominent Baptist preachers here 00:25:00were preaching. We had the same needs. We had the same agenda. We wanted jobs where we could earn a living, we could buy our groceries, we could pay for our children and take care of them and put food on the table and have our pets and take them to the vet. Just the same thing that everybody else has who wants to do every day.Judy Rudolf:Can I tell a funny story?

Susan:Go right ahead.

Judy Rudolf:So I guess we'd been part of the All Souls community for several years. Three or four years maybe at that point. I don't remember exactly. And there was a women's ...Susan:The retreat was in 93.

Judy Rudolf:No, no. Not that one.

Susan:Not that one?

Judy Rudolf:No.

Susan:Okay.

Judy Rudolf:We were spending the night at the church. I don't remember what we called it. Sleepover or something. I don't know. With all of these women.Susan:It was kind of like an adult women lock in.

Judy Rudolf:Adult slumber party.

Susan:Yeah.

Judy Rudolf:And so Susan and I had on our flannel PJ's and we brought our [crosstalk]-

Susan:Hers had dogs, mine had cats. We had matching slippers.

Judy Rudolf:Yeah. And one of the women stood in front of us. And she said, "This is why we need to be afraid." What did she say?

Susan:Oh. "This is why lesbians are so frightening."

Judy Rudolf:Yeah. We really need to be terrified of these two women, obviously. We're so funny. We were sitting there in our PJ's and doing our crafts and-

Susan:And I'm wielding knitting needles and she's wielding a crochet hook as if somehow-

Judy Rudolf:We were laughing because it is silly. It's just silly. Anyhow. I don't know how you're going to put any of this together because we talk too much.

Kaylin P:Oh, no. What happens is I'm recording it and then we just send it off and it gets transcribed.

Judy Rudolf:Good thing.

Kaylin P:Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry about it.

Judy Rudolf:So we're a little bit all over the place. We at one point belonged 00:27:00to a, and this is also kind of funny because neither one of us liked to cook. We belonged to a lesbian gay dinner group, which was mostly gay men.

Susan:Right. Well, there was Judy Lawley, a couple of other people and it was just a couple of other lesbians. But yeah, it was mostly gay men. So we kept trying to find something that we couldn't screw up, that we could prepare for these dinners.

Judy Rudolf:One of these meals that was a salmon and they had the whole salmon and it was beautiful.

Susan:And they had the very special sauce. I mean, it was ...Judy Rudolf:Yeah. So for that one, that was a Saturday morning. We got home late and I had to get something ready for that night. And I'm thinking, what in the world could I possibly take to this thing? I had some potatoes, so I thought I'll just take 00:28:00mashed potatoes. Everybody loves mashed potatoes. So I started making the mashed potatoes and I usually put cream in my mashed potatoes. I didn't have any. Saw a brick of cream cheese, threw it in. Salt, pepper, mashed potatoes. They loved it. Oh, I got to have your recipe. And I'm going, "Oh my God."

Susan:The internet was not as advanced as it is today. So it's not like we could go online at work or say, "Google, what's a fancy mashed potato recipe?"

Judy Rudolf:Just I threw what I had in the kitchen in, and all these very prissy man who loved to cook and loved to cook fancy stuff just loved it.

Susan:We had a good friend who, and we met him, I worked at Seven Sisters Gallery in Black Mountain when we first moved here while I was studying for the bar. And for the first few years around Christmas time, because we were so poor 00:29:00...Judy Rudolf:Yes, we were.

Susan:That was how I earned Christmas money. So I worked seven days a week for several years. And [Dooley Hitch] was his name. The Reverend Dooley Hitch. He was a Presbyterian minister who had ... What?

Susan:I think he had three sons. He had been married and he had realized he was gay after he was married. But he didn't come out until after his wife died.

Judy Rudolf:Anybody that ever met Dooley Hitch, within 10 seconds would know he was gay. How come he didn't know?

Susan:Who knows? And needless to say, when his wife died and he retired was because the Presbyterian church, especially back in the 90s, didn't condone gay 00:30:00ministers. And since that was his entire professional life, and that's essentially with his pension and everything else, he had to be careful. And so Dooley was the unofficial minister of Seven Sisters and they would have, at the time, the two women that owned it would have these holiday parties. And they would get Dooley to bless the party, which he did hilariously.

Susan:But we wound up going to several of Dooley's parties that he had as the token lesbian couple. We had another friend, couple of friends that we knew who were the token breeders because they'd had a couple of daughters, one of which was a lesbian. And so it was just really-

Judy Rudolf:Really that early community first. Maybe 10 years when we were here 00:31:00was just, even we were all still fighting for rights and [inaudible] a lot of things and still worried about jobs and that sort of thing. So it was a great warm community. And there were just a lot of good people here at that time. That's when we met Betty Sharpless. Betty was one of the movers and shakers behind [SAGA ]. Have you heard of SAGA before?

Kaylin P:No. What's that?

Judy Rudolf:If I can remember what it stands for. It was more a political action committee, a committee that was involved in pushing for political solutions to gay and lesbian rights.

Kaylin P:Okay.

Judy Rudolf:I just don't remember what it stood for.

Susan:And Carlos Gomez, who was one of the movers and shakers behind Minnie Jones. I met him when I was doing some volunteer work at Pisgah Legal and he happened to be their office manager. Pisgah Legal was a lot smaller then. So he 00:32:00and Minnie-

PART 1 OF 5 ENDS

Susan:... smaller then. So, he and Minnie Jones got the funding to start Minnie Jones. [crosstalk] Western North Carolina Community Health Services.Judy:Didn't he also run WNCAP for a while?

Susan:I think he was involved with WNCAP, yeah. As a matter of fact, WNCCHS was and still is one of the few places where they actually have expertise in dealing with HIV positive people.

Susan:One of the early physicians, who was sort of a legend around here, she's since retired, but she ... after several years just couldn't do it anymore 00:33:00because it was so heartbreaking. Because so many of her patients died, because they didn't have-

Judy:Was her name Christina?

Susan:It was Dr. ... I don't think McQuade is-

Judy:It's not Cynthia McQuade, right? Oh, I don't know. I need to stop going ahead here. I don't remember.

Susan:But she was and still is absolutely wonderful. She is now advocating for the Medicare-for-all, or Medicaid-for-all, or insurance-for-all. She was originally from Scotland.

JudyWhen we came in the early '90s, Asheville was still kind of a small town. It wasn't nearly the ...Susan:Oh, yeah. You still didn't go downtown after dark.

Judy:Right. A lot of it was shut, and there were closed doors. It was really ... But it started, [inaudible] was one of the things that started the 00:34:00revitalization of downtown.

Susan:And it had been going for several years at that point.

Judy:Yep. Anyhow, when we came ... in a sense, it was a small community. Small LGBT community that we knew. But just really good people. A lot of whom have died, many of them died of AIDS. Some of them do die ...Susan:Dooley died of stomach cancer.

Judy:Yeah. That was incredibly sad. But it was an interesting time. We were so poor, but we felt like we really had a good community, and a lot of people that were our friends. We stayed. We weren't going anywhere else.

Susan:And as I said, we were as active in other communities, whether it be women attorneys. We were involved when the Western chapter ... Western North Carolina 00:35:00chapter, the North Carolina Association of Women Attorneys got started. I talked about the mediation center, that it was actually for lesbians that got that started.

Judy:And then there were four lesbians that got the family visitation centers started. You, [crosstal], Janet.Susan:Actually, the family visitation center was what I was thinking about the mediation center. Because that that wasn't true of them. I did volunteer work in the early days with [Helpmate ], and there were discussions about, "Well, what about same sex domestic partner violence?"

Judy:You couldn't get a domestic violence protection order because of the same gender.

Susan:Because the laws specifically said it had to be-

Judy:Opposite sex people.Susan:And that left a lot of people vulnerable. So, we had discussions ...Judy:Yeah. Yeah. I mean-

Susan:... and the lesbian head of Helpmate was kind of right there with us at that time. Part of what's kind of crazy about working at the Council on Aging is that I have run into many of the people that I remember from nonprofits in my early years, who have worked at one point or another through the Council on Aging, either before they retired or ... It was just kind of like, "Yeah, we're back to earning what we did back in the '90s, because we're still working for nonprofits." But we have reached a point where we no longer wanted to lead them.

Judy:I think we're rambling now.

Susan:Yes, we probably are. Next question.

Kaylin:They're good rambles. They're actually answering a lot of the questions 00:37:00anyways ... the rambles are. You've kind of hit on this a little bit, but what are some of the biggest ways that Asheville's changed positively or negatively that you've noticed the most since you guys have been here?

Judy:Talk about the changes politically, Susan.Susan:It's been both good and bad. In some ways in the '90s, even though it was hard, there were a lot of ... Things were so kind of loose in many respects. What I was thinking of was 00:38:00everyone's county commissioner, city council. I can't remember where the discussion is. There was a discussion of same gender protections. Early on, the answer was not only 'no,' but hell no. And then as time ... Yeah. It was a very conservative ... [inaudible] Sidnick, I think, was the first break in the ultra conservative ... [inaudible] Sidnick and Barbara Fields, ultra conservative city council. And then county commission ... you know, mostly white men. Patsy Keever was the shining light there, and Giezentanner. Trying to remember her first name ...Judy:Doris.

Susan:Doris Giezentanner. So, LGBT was not on anybody's radar. If anyone brought it up, it was so quickly slammed on it wasn't funny. When I first ran for judge 00:39:00in 2002, I think I mentioned this ... It was a nonpartisan race, but I had been a Democrat since moving here. I went to the democratic party, and there were people who would not pass by me, or speak to me, or shake my hand because I was a lesbian. I was on the executive committee, meaning I was a precinct chair at one point. I happened to be at a precinct committee meeting where there was this- [crosstalk]

Susan:Yeah. And somebody had stood up and kept talking about those gay people, those gay people, those gay people. I had finally reached the end of my tether, and I stood up and I said, "I just want all of you to know that you know one of 00:40:00those gay people, and that happens to be me." I started addressing issues such as 'the gay agenda,' and said, "My gay agenda is to be able to keep a roof over my head. And my wife's head, or my partner's head, my son's head. And to be able to keep him in clothing, and afterschool activities, and food on the table, and keep our animals fed, and vet bills paid." And just kind of said basically it's the same agenda you have every single day. The only difference is rather than having it with a husband, I have it with a female spouse.

Susan:There was this kind of shocked silence. And then Ernie Thurston spoke up 00:41:00and said, "I want you to know I'm in a polygamous relationship," with the woman who he and his ... Well, two men, one woman. And he can talk to you about that or not, but he definitely would be someone who would be interesting to talk about.

Susan:Then in 2006, I ran again. My sexuality was not quite as big a deal. It was a full county race. Then six years later, I ran for the house, because they could not find anybody who would run against Nathan Ramsey, who was extremely well known in the county. I agreed to do it. I lost, but ...Stranger:Can I 00:42:00interrupt you for just a second? Is that going to be a hat?

Susan:No, this is going to be a scarf.

Judy:She does make hats on the [inaudible].

Stranger:I can't believe you did that much already.

Susan:Oh yeah.

JudyYou know that nice, big fat yarn? It goes really fast.

Stranger:Really?

Susan:And it's a knitting loom. I have managed to ... See? There are no holes in it. Normally if I were talking to somebody, there would be holes everywhere.

Stranger:[inaudible].

Susan:That's what happens when we do this. It's great. People stop and talk.

Kaylin:They're just amazed.

Susan:Yeah. We are not as involved in the women law.

Judy:When Susan ran against Nathan, Nathan didn't say anything. His people did.

Susan:Yeah. There were very coded things that were said.

Judy:They made a big deal out of Susan's sexuality, and that's probably one of the reasons that she did not win. And white Democrats voted for him, because they were afraid of this lesbian representing. She would come get their children or something. I don't know. Whatever their fear is.

Susan:Which is one reason why I'm so damn proud of Deb Butler, because she ran in one down on the coast-

Judy:I think that's one change that's happened here. I think there transgender person that got elected recently, too. I mean, elections across the state here as well ... but across the state have become more receptive to campaigns and more receptive to LGBT people running.

Susan:And there is a-

Judy:It's wonderful.

Susan:... an LGBT section of the democratic party in the state. That didn't exist before.

Judy:Yeah. That's the reason I wanted Susan to talk about politics, because I 00:44:00think that's one of the biggest changes that I've seen in our culture is that now when it comes to government, we are represented for the first time. For the first time, we are represented. We've got the gay man running for president. I'm not sure I'm going to vote for him, but that has nothing to do with his sexuality. He's a nice guy. I mean, we are now there. We are there. And that's never happened before. Ever.

Susan:Well, I loved ... and I don't know if you are aware. But the Republican head of the general assembly ... this was over ... was it Labor Day? No. It's been closer than that.

Judy:I don't remember when it was, Susan.

Susan:It had basically said that they were not going to be doing any votes on 00:45:00this particular day. Many of the Democrats were back in their offices doing work, and home districts meeting with their constituents ... several who had ... the governor had vetoed the budget, and they could never get enough votes to override the budget because the Democrats basically will block it. There were Democrats who refused to get their chemotherapy for cancer, because they were making sure that they were present. There were some that were so ill that they were falling over in general assembly, because they were going to be present to keep a vote from happening. And so-

Judy:We want be heard. I don't think I would characterize it the Democrats were trying to block, so much as they were just saying, "We're going to be heard. Our voice is going to be heard. You are not going to override this veto without us having a say." And just because the Democrats had enough votes, they could block it. But that wasn't so much the point as just saying, "We need to be heard."

Susan:And we want to be a part of the discussion. If you want to change the budget, then we expect to be part of the discussion and have input into the next budget. Because all too often, what has happened is they have been shut out at any budget discussion. When the budget has come to the floor rather than having the usual things go through different committees, many of which Democrats did sit on, they would basically change the rules as they had ... you voted for budget, and it would be in and out before. They would put it out at 10 o'clock 00:47:00the night before, and vote on it at that eight o'clock the next morning.

JudyThey were getting away from LGBT-

Susan:Well, no. But here, [crosstalk] one of the reasons why. Again, not only were the Democrats told, but the news reporters and others were told, "You don't need to come to the general assembly or have anyone there, because nothing's going to happen." And then they bring it up knowing that there are not enough Democrats that are in the house to to block it. And so, they bring it up for a vote to override.

Susan:Deb Butler stood up and said, "Oh no." She just started letting them have 00:48:00it. John agar, God bless him, stood on one side and others surrounded her so that she could not be hauled out of the chamber ... which is what they tried to do. She said, "I will not yield. I will not yield on this despicable vote that you have done." One of the other one other Democrats was bright enough to take her phone out and start filming it. When she was on the news that night, as they were being interviewed by Anderson Cooper and various other people ... when they talked to Deb Butler, they refer to her as the house representative from Wilmington, and whatever her district. I don't remember. Nobody said she's the lesbian representative. That wasn't part of the discussion and it didn't need to 00:49:00be part of the discussion. But previously, that would have been the first thing that would have been said. I was kind of [inaudible] to see.

JudyAnother big change ... and I think probably these two are the ones that really ... We talk about it a lot. There's the gay pride parades. Initially, it was just a few people. Surrounded by people screaming-

Susan:"It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve."

Judy:Yeah. All kinds of stuff. And now we have gay pride, and it's a weekend, and it's tons, and tons, and tons of people. And this past one ... Oh my God, 00:50:00this was so awesome. But Susan was there with the Council on Aging booth, and I sat there for most of the day. I was kind of bored, so I went walking around. And I went up to the stage, and was watching some of the dancing and the things that were going on. This family came over and kind of sat on the side of me. One of their members was obviously the elderly mother ... grandmother, I guess, of somebody. And she was sitting beside me, she told me she was 80. 80 something. All of a sudden they said, "Grandma, we're going to go around. We'll see you later." And they left her. They left this 80 year old woman there. I'm thinking, "I'm not sure this is good."

Judy:So I went, "I'll stick with her. We'll be good." I started getting to know her and talking. She was the dearest thing. She said she wasn't used to all this. She was from ... I think she said Colorado. She was a country girl and she wasn't used to all this. And I was thinking she was saying not used to all this 00:51:00gay stuff. What she meant was the crowds. She was so fascinated by the dancing. Were you at gay pride?

Kaylin:Yeah.

JudyDid you see the guy that had all the big feathers and the big feather tail?

Kaylin:Yeah, I did.

Judy:So, she was watching him. And she said, "I want to go up and tell him how much I like his dancing." I said, "Well, come on Betty." But she was real tilt-y, so I was like, "You hold onto my arm. Come on, we'll go up." So, she went out to him ... To this day, I'm so sorry I didn't get a picture of this. She went up to him and I told him ... I said, "This is Betty and she wants to talk to you. She has something to say to you." And she said, "I really liked your dancing." He got down on one knee and he kissed her hand. Oh, I'm going to tear up. I mean, it was just the most beautiful moment ever. Just this little old lady and this decked out ... It was just phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. But that's a huge change that we have just become so visible. Integrated in the 00:52:00community and visible. And from what we've seen-

Susan:It's good and it's bad. It's good in that ... you don't seem to be a big deal. Our sexuality isn't what defines us anymore. It's bad in that as we are being attacked, as this particular administration seems to be intent on stripping away rights, some of them being behind closed doors using whatever method possible, like kicking transgender out of the military ... and trying to find ways to negate the fact that our marriages are illegal. Trying to say that 00:53:00LGBT people are not entitled to legal protections in employment-

Judy:Equal access.

Susan:... and we don't have sort of the core groups to do the organization that we did previously. As I said with integrity, when we knew that they were going to be having those discussions, we got together and we made a plan as to how we were going to do this. It was not a protest. It was not any of that. It was just we need to let them know that we're actual people. We're not some abstract group that they don't know.

Susan:I mean, we still had [Lewis] Green who was publishing his independent torch, and referring to Judy and I as those two fat lesbians, and spitting into 00:54:00the ...Judy:Chalice.

Susan:Chalice at church and being excommunicated because of his rapid hatred for gay people.

Judy:I have to say ... Oh, stop. I have to say thank goodness for Campaign for Southern Equality-

Susan:Oh, yes.

Judy:Because that's the one group that we do have that takes on the role that some of these other groups had early on. Even though marriage equality has happened, there's still a lot to do, and a long way to go. Now they're just afraid to disband. And that's been important and good. Thank God for Jasmine and Meghan. God bless them for still going on with three kids. A set of twins. Okay. 00:55:00Let her ask the next question.

Kaylin:What do you hope for Asheville and just Western North Carolina in general as our community moves forward?

Susan:Oh, I also want to say ... I know that Ellen is currently in trouble. But one of the first things she did after she got elected ... as County Commissioner, she put forth the proposal that LGBT ... that spells of benefits be given to lesbian, and gay, and bi ... well, to-

Judy:To same gender spouses.Susan:Well, not just spouses, but partners. Because at the time that this came about, it was not legal to get married. She was the 00:56:00one that proposed it, and she was the one who got it passed. For whatever else happened in there, I will always be grateful to Ellen for doing that, and for standing up for us, and she has done it on more than one occasion.

Susan:There were already big companies that were providing domestic benefits, as they would say. They would do it for heterosexual couples as well as same sex, because of course you can't discriminate. That's part of how a lot of the lawsuits have come about is you were treating one group of people distinctly from another one. But here in Buncombe County, finding an organization that would do that was difficult.

Judy:Hope for the future.

Susan:Yeah. And that that is what I'm seeing is that ... My hope is that we will 00:57:00do away with discrimination. Locally, at least, if not countywide and nationally. Whether it be discrimination in housing, discrimination in employment ... We've known people who got thrown out of their apartments because the landlord realized that these weren't just roommates. We know people who lost their jobs, because their boss-

Judy:They were too gay.

Susan:... realized that they were ... Yeah. The hope is that there will come a 00:58:00time when it won't matter at all who someone falls in love with, or what their gender orientation, or lack thereof ... meaning people who are asexual, or fluid, and don't particularly care to label themselves as one thing or another. Just kind of nobody gets upset or bats an eye. It's just okay. Where we have forms that you have choices other than male, female, don't want to disclose. Where we have other choices than ...Susan:I mean, one of the things about the Affordable Care Act is there is a section, it's optional, where you can choose what your race ethnicity is. I can't choose Scottish or Irish. I can choose 00:59:00white, but that's it. I had somebody who came in one time and chose four, because he knew his mother was Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander, and his dad was Polynesian, and something else. I was very impressed he could. But we don't do that. We don't have a way of doing that, but we can express sort of some of our heritage. Because at one point or another when our forebears came to the United States, for the most part, many of them were discriminated against because of ethnicity ... whether it be Italian, or German, or whatever.

Judy:One of the things that I would like to see in the future ... This is why I'm so supportive of public school, because this is the place to do that. I'd 01:00:00like to see all of our young people educated about implicit bias so that they can learn and understand their reaction to someone who's different from them. And understand that even though you can say, "Oh, I'm not a racist, because I don't care if somebody's black or not." But in a sense, you do notice, you do make judgments based on a lot of things.

Susan:And they are unconscious many times.

Judy:It's not erasing racism that I think ... or any bias against any particular group, so much as helping people understand what implicit bias is and that everybody has it. Everybody does. When I see a very large, generally white ... 01:01:00I'm not as afraid of black men as white men. A very large white man, I'm instantly assessing my risk. Because for me, large white men are dangerous. I know that's a bias I have.

Judy:I'm stepping back, and I'm looking at this person the way that some people might see a black boy with a hood and step back. I think we all have to understand what our implicit bias is, and how that affects our judgment making. That's what I'm hoping for the future. I'm hoping we can teach our children that and create a society where people understand. Of course you're going to have bias. If you were raised by a strong woman, we're going to have a particular feeling about strong women. If you were raised by lesbian or a gay man, you're going to have a feeling about them. And that's bias.

Susan:Pro or con.

Judy:Yeah. That everyone can learn what it is and learn to recognize their own. 01:02:00Then decisions that are made are rational, and not based on some fear that they don't even recognize they have. I'm sorry. That's very esoteric and I get it. That's really what I think.

Kaylin:Thank you. You guys have talked a lot about different organizations that you've worked with. Are there any in particular that stand out to you as ones that have impacted you the most?

Judy:The Episcopal church has had a huge impact on us, but that's because we feel like that it has grown. I'm not sure I would feel the same way about ... 01:03:00even if I was belonged to a small church where people were for open, the greater church, I would think I would feel that way about ... like, the Methodist church is still in the dark ages. I would say the Episcopal church is one organization.

Susan:I would say [inaudible] in particular, because we had a friend who was a deacon in a smaller church in a smaller town. When she asked if she could be married there, they said, "Hell no."

Judy:Not only that, but you have to leave. We don't want you anymore.

Susan:Okay. Any other organizations?Judy:Other organizations ... I think closer was very important to us. Which by the way, we connected up through the Episcopal church. I mean, initially. That's how we found out about it.

PART 2 OF 5 ENDS

Judy:That's how we found out about it.

Susan:Joan and Dan Marshall, they were the closer parents. I think... Women Attorneys Association...

Judy:Our women attorney friends have been pretty phenomenal.

Susan:I think, the family visitation center-

Judy:Didn't really have a personal impact on us, don't you think?

Susan:Yeah, I think it did. Otherwise, if we had not felt strongly about it, we would not have been too [inaudible]

Judy:Okay.

Susan:And it came out of our experiences in the courtroom or with families who had undergone tremendous violence.

Judy:Democratic Party.

Susan:Yeah, oh yeah.

Judy:But because of our involvement, active involvement in it, we've made a lot of friends, and I don't think that I would say the Democratic party as an entity has had a huge impact on us. With the local people that we've been involved with.Susan:The democratic women... We've been on the board of that. I would also... By the way, did you notice that- Oh, never mind. I'll tell you [inaudible]

Judy:Very much aside.

Susan:One of the things I will mention, in 2006, because it was nonpartisan, I had both a Republican and a Democratic campaign manager, and the Republican campaign manager who happened to be a woman and was a friend.

Judy:Who was that? Susan-

Susan:Susan... Lytle.

Judy:Oh, I forgot about Susan. She was great.

Susan:Oh, yeah. And one of the things... I've got to go back and fix this. She was trying to set up a meeting for me with the Republican Women's School cause I've been a part of the Democratic Women's Group for a while. And because there's nonpartisan [inaudible], that was part of why I had somebody from each camp was because I thought it was important that they understand that when you're in the courtroom, it doesn't matter whether you're Democrat or Republican, you're there because you have a legal issue that needs to be taken 01:07:00care of, and you want a judge who's not going to worry about that. It's got to be cause...

Judy:I think that's you. Right, it could be me.

Susan:And they canceled their meeting. They couldn't just say, "No, you can't come." I mean, they canceled it, so that I couldn't do something as radical as go and stand outside and just shake people's hands and talk to them and say, "We're coming along." So, yeah, that had a little bit of an interesting impact as well.

Kaylin:Did you go through a lot of discrimination like that in the workplace?

Susan:Actually, I was talking about this just the other day. Yeah. Child support 01:08:00is like the most conservative part of the department of social services for whatever reason. Many of the people who I worked with went to conservative Baptist churches. Not all Baptist churches are conservative, but these were, and when we would be talking at lunch, I mean, I didn't wear a sign that said "Hi, I'm your lesbian attorney," but I would talk about Judy and Nicholas like other people talked about their husbands and step children, or children, or whatever, 01:09:00or boyfriends.

Susan:So, one young lady came in and sat in the chair in my office and said, "Do you consider yourself married to Judy?" Or "Is she your girlfriend?" I said, "Yeah, and I consider her son to be my step child." She said, "Okay, well I was just wondering, cause that always seemed to be the way you talked about them." And then she got up and she left.

Susan:And what was funny was, there were other lesbians who worked at the department of social services. Many of them were in the children's division. And I would go upstairs because I was also the backup abuse and neglect attorney, and I'd have cases that I'd have to go talk to the social workers about, and these heads would pop up where people would pop out to say, "Hi!" and I'd say, "Hello," and it just didn't register. But part of it was, they sort of wanted me 01:10:00to know that I was okay. I was wanted there, but not so much down in child support.

Susan:We had a new supervisor one time, and people would make inappropriate comments, but it was so pervasive in child support about so many different things that it was like... Some of their things that they would say just... It was, in a lot of ways, a political dumping ground. If they couldn't figure out where to put somebody who had been politically influential in local politics and getting people elected, they would put them in child support. It was what it felt like. I remember, this was back in the early 90s, and it's not that way 01:11:00anymore, but a new supervisor came in and I happened to be in the kitchen in our little break room area and I said, "Hi, how are you doing?" And she said... She just stopped what she was doing, and she looked at me, and it was not a friendly look, and she said, "I am fine. I was fine yesterday and I'm going to be fine tomorrow. So, you never had to ask me that question again." And I was like, "Okay. Understood."

Susan:But I had to work with the supervisors, I had to work with the other workers, because I was the one that had to sign the complaints. I had to sign volunteer support agreements. I had to take the cases to court to prove paternity or to get child support. So, it wasn't like we were not going to run 01:12:00into each other, and it was such an issue that they actually called a meeting where I had to sit down with the other supervisors and we had to have a little discussion, because it had been made so aware that there was a problem with me. And sort of the woman who had kind of... Fullman sparked a lot of this. When we sat down, she looked at me and she said, "Last night as I was praying, God convicted me. And he said, "What are you doing? It is not your place to judge her to condemn her. Stop it, essentially."

Susan:She and I became really good friends, and one of the things that brought us together was our faith. Talking about our faith and talking about where we heard God. I heard God say to me, "I made you the way you are. You're loving Judy is the way I made you, and I love you for that, and you are my child for that." Not the only reason, but sort of the missing piece that I had always felt was not there, I found with Judy, and God let me know it was okay that I had finally found that missing piece. I was his child, just like everyone else, and loved.

Susan:In the midst of talking about this and talking some about our beliefs and 01:14:00our faith, we just became really close, really good friends. She moved on to another position, and I haven't seen her. Unfortunately, she got scapegoated.

Susan:But yeah, and the courthouse, there were some judges who just flat out didn't like me, and I knew that some of why they didn't like things because of Judy. And I had one that excoriated me in court one day over something that I could not control in front of the whole courtroom. And it was a day-long experience and it was excruciating, not just for me but for my child support 01:15:00workers who were also attacked. As much as I try to keep them out of whatever had blown him up. It was difficult. So, yeah. What's interesting is the judges that are on the bench now are judges that sort of came up with Judy and I, and it's not an issue if they have somebody who is a LGBT person who is coming in front of them. We are running into the same kind of... You don't get the same bias that we did when Judy and I first started, and there would be deputies that would make negative comments. And what was funny is, we would also have some police officers and deputies that would subtly let us know that they were family.

Susan:I remember going to a Pride March in the early days of pride marchers in North Carolina, in Charlotte. There were hateful people standing on the side, and you kind of worried. And there were some places that we were told not to go and we took that to heart. Unfortunately, I was never good at line dancing. So, I never did a lot of the fun dances at "O'Henry's" in its original space downstairs, but we did a few, little bit.

Kaylin:Were there a lot of places like "O'Henry's" where you guys felt like the 01:17:00community could gather and-

Susan:"O'Henry's," "Scandals," "Hairspray" was primarily a lesbian bar, and there were maybe one or two others. But at that point, we were both very much into our careers. We were sitting on boards of different things, and our son was very active in soccer, and we were going to tournaments if not around this state then in Georgia, when he moved back with his dad down in Florida.

Susan:And it was the other thing, we would go to soccer events, and our son would have three parents, and the other parents were kind of like, "Wait a minute. Oh, you two are the ones that are together..." And it was always an... 01:18:00You could almost feel when people understood cause it wasn't like... I mean, we made clear that all three of us were Nicholas's parents. Nicholas made it clear. I think I told you about the time when he first moved back with his dad, and he called Judy's office, and she had this very trauma client in her office. Nicholas calls, so, the call got put through cause nobody knew what the dire emergency was. And Nick goes, "Mom, mom, would you tell" - I forgot what the kid's name was - "that you're a dyke? He doesn't believe me!" It's like, "Nicholas, hang up the phone, I'll talk to you later."

Judy:He was so proud of having a dyke mother. The funniest thing.Susan:I'm not a dyke!

Susan:And it was kind of like, "Yeah, we're not... No. Closer to the lipstick lesbians. Not really, but we own flannel shirts, we're not that much into dresses, but we're not dykes." But he was just hilarious, I mean, he had no problem. [crosstalk] Unfortunately-

Judy:No, he never even had a problem.

Kaylin:That's awesome.

Judy:My daughter's had some, I think, difficulty with it.

Susan:My younger sister didn't have a problem. My brother who's two years younger than I am did, my parents did. My mother had a five-hour discussion with me that began with, "Do I need to worry about you going down to the local high school and recruiting girls?"

Judy:She said junior high, not high school.

Susan:Or junior high and recruiting girls.

Judy:Like, really.

Susan:And ended with "How do you think Nicholas is going to feel about being 01:20:00raised by queen fairies?" And as I said, this was a five-hour ordeal conversation. And by the end, when she made that comment, I wanted so badly to say to her, but I knew it was not the right time. I wanted to say, "Mom, mom, we can't be queen fairies. Now, Charles who is gay could be a queen fairy. He's not. But he could be. We could be bull dykes, but we're not bull dykes. But if you want terminology that is more appropriate, that would be closer. But no." But it was just kind of hilarious. By the end though, I felt like my shoulder muscles were ripping apart because they were so tight. And even though they let 01:21:00me know that they did not necessarily approve, they never threw me out.

Susan:We found out - was it in 93? It was 92, I think, that my father had salivary gland cancer and prognosis was not good. And so, things that might've taken a lot longer to be resolved suddenly got telescoped in time. That was hard, as my father was being operated on to see if they could get all the cancer, I was sitting in the waiting room with my brother who basically said, "Your relationship threatens everything I believe in." Our relationship 01:22:00threatened his world, and it was a very, very hard conversation to have, but we got through it. We had a ceremony in 93 in part because I knew my father wasn't going to be around long and I wanted him to walk me down the aisle.

Judy:No, [inaudible] you wanted to marry me.

Susan:Well, yeah, I wanted to marry you since day one-

Judy:Yes. Yeah, I know.

Susan:[inaudible] And my sister had a very lavish wedding six months later with her fiance that she had known at that point 9 months, not quite a year. My brother would not come to our ceremony. My parents did. That was the first time my mother commented on, "There are so many heterosexuals here." "Yes. Mom, what? 01:23:00You thought that I fell in love with Judy and all of a sudden I cut off everybody else and every other... Yeah. No."

Susan:In 2003, we had a renewal of vows, my brother came. That was-

Judy:And took pictures.

Susan:And took pictures, and my sister had been involved with our initial ceremony as had her daughter and son and my friend Charles, and at a renewal of vows, my sister and her kids were involved. Judy's daughter and her kids were involved in, I think, Nicholas was too, but I can't remember where Nicholas was. And my brother was there, which was a really big deal, and we had a couple of women lawyer friends were our attendance. And then, my mother died in 2000, and 01:24:00when my brother and his wife had their first child, we would be sitting at a table. My father was still alive but very ill, and Taylor would be passed around from person to person and then get to Judy and pass the baby back. Although Judy was about the only person at that point who had a grown daughter, a son, had taught special ed. We were involved with children, but we didn't want her to pick up the gay cooties.

Judy:It was really funny. I was sitting there watching, the baby goes around the table when it gets to, I think Susan's mother was next to me, maybe Kimberly. And there's that, the baby. Okay, I got that message.

Susan:So, we could call the hospital because daddy is dying. And we happen to 01:25:00have gone to lunch because nobody expected it. And my brother called and said, "You need to get back here now." And that was when Judy and her mother were allowed to keep the baby for the first time.

Judy:Well, everybody was in crisis. So, we went and stay with Taylor, and they went to the hospital to say goodbye.

Susan:And then five years later, my mother was diagnosed with lung cancer. I forgot to mention, my parents smoked like chimneys. We lived in the house that we called heaven because it hung in layers like clouds. And before she passed away, she had us meet with her financial advisor, so that we could get things squared away, so that each one of her children would be equally taken care of.

Susan:And Judy at one point said, "First of all, I want everybody to know that I 01:26:00don't have a dog in this fight. This has to do with Hayes and Patricia and Susan, this their mother. It's their inheritance. And I don't really feel a need to have input, except I want you to avoid these things that I have seen when I have dealt with families who were going through estates, do not do this, be aware of doing this. Remember, just basically, be kind to each other, understand it." Just really wonderful things. And she said, "And now I'm going to go make a cup of tea." And she got up and she left. And my sister-in-law was like, "Doesn't she want... She is such a good addition to this family. I'm so glad we have her." And it was like, "Wow, thank you." So-

Judy:Over the years, we've become-

Susan:Right, we-

Judy:Not best friends, at least, somewhat friends, I guess. And my mother loves Susan because Susan will go shopping with her when nobody else will, or for her, or whatever.

Susan:Yeah, it's been a long road sometimes, but we have weathered it. I was sorry Judy didn't get more time with my dad. I was sorry my mother wasn't around longer. I love my siblings to death and their spouses and children and grateful that we have been able to be as much a part of their lives as we have.

Judy:Which is a sad statement-

Susan:Because not everybody does.

Judy:[crosstalk] That we have been grateful they let us be part of the family. 01:28:00Just like...

Susan:But I've seen a lot of growth in them as well in us in the way that we have approached things too. My brother and I got into a huge argument over writing my dad's obituary-

Judy:I would leave the house.

Susan:If I had not [inaudible] If we had not both been willing to come back together and say, "I am so sorry. I love you." That would have been the end of our relationship. So.

Judy:Not that you're all alike or anything.

Susan:Okay, we're all stubborn. Yeah, we've noticed that. Judy's sisters have 01:29:00come to a point where they, I think, except me.

Stanger 2:That's pretty. Are you all doing it?

Judy:Yeah. This is just a simple pattern and I [inaudible].

Stranger 2:This is-

Susan:That's crochet.

Judy:Crochet is one hook, knitting is two needles.

Susan:This is loom knitting.

Stranger 2:Okay. So then, you're doing, maybe... You call it scarf?

Susan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. See what I mean? Judy's brothers were okay with me from day one. Judy's sisters, not so much.Kaylin:How come?

Judy:I'm not sure. Worldview, I guess. I don't know. My brother Bob, I don't know.

Susan:You and Bob have always been very close.

Judy:Yeah, and John's just... John is the most nonjudgmental person I've ever met in my life. Well, that's not true, but sometimes, but for the most part, that just isn't what he does. My sisters are a little more judgmental about things, and I think they have had a reaction to Hayes's... My relationship threatens their [inaudible]. I think they've come around, and plus they like Susan, that helps. I had a previous partner that was very abusive. And so in 01:31:00contrast, Susan looks great, that helps.

Susan:So, when Judy's mother turns on the... We had a big party for her and we knew that the spouses knew the siblings were going to be involved with all of these relatives, all of this. And we knew we had our own roles which were basically "Make sure the food doesn't run out, the cups are cupped up." So, we were having a blast, just, we had dressed kind of like waiters in black pants and white shirts.

Judy:Very funny.

Susan:If we could find a tie, we wore a tie. And at one point, we were standing 01:32:00in this little kitchen area of the place that we had rented, and I can't remember it was you or which sibling had walked in and opened a cabinet and grabbed something and turned around and walked out and didn't close the cabinet. And I kind of looked up and I said, "Did your spouses do this? Leaving the cabinet open all the time thing?" And they went, "Yeah." So we just, we had a lot of fun. It's Wendy's favorite ranch, [inaudible ] . Talking about, you know, how alike are our different spouses were, whether it, "I'm sorry, we're related!" Yes.

Susan:The male spouses had all gone to play golf or something and so, it was just... I don't remember what [inaudible] they went. I don't remember. He certainly wasn't evolved the way we were. [crosstalk].

Judy:Mike could be the only one.

Susan:Oh, I'm sure he's just hanging around and talking.

Judy:He was there. He was there. But he wasn't going to wait on tables or anything.

Susan:Oh no. So Troy and Wendy and I were having a blast.

Judy:Have you run out of things to say yet?

Susan:Oh, probably.

Kaylin:So, Judy, you said you worked in the school system for a bit?

Judy:Uh-huh (affirmative).

Kaylin:How was that? Was there any discrimination there? Any issues you noticed, just for yourself or just in the school system in general that you'd like to talk about, regarding LGBTQ issues.

Judy:Okay. When I worked as a teacher and had a female partner, gosh, it was late 70s early 80s. It wasn't here, there was in Virginia, and we spent a lot of time being terrified that somebody would find out about our relationship. And my partner was a high school band director, and then eventually she did get into trouble. They accused her of being inappropriate with a female student, which I 01:34:00knew was coming, not because she was inappropriate with female student but because I knew they suspected, and as soon as there was any hint of anything, her being too friendly with the students, that that was going to happen. That was after I left, but I was concerned a lot of time that I'd lose my job, and they could have fired us, easily, just based on our sexuality. During that time also my daughter was in school and so, I had to be careful with her teacher and her principal. I mean, you just walked on eggs all the time but-

Susan:Egg shells.

Judy:Whatever. So, one of the great contrast is when we came here and my son was in Black Mountain Primary School and Jerry Green, the principal, did not bat an 01:35:00eye. We were fine. They treated Susan as the other parent. There was no threat or question-

Susan:When an individual, after-school worker or... Would look at me with a non-too-friendly look, but nobody said anything. Some of that might've been because I was going to pick up Nicholas who had just gotten in trouble, so.

Judy:I was going to tell you, they were just glad to see you. "Hey, come on, please." But you know, school systems are fairly cautious places anyway, and they tend to be judgmental of parents. Man, I've been a teacher and I understand that. But on the other hand, it's kind of sad. But other-

PART 3 OF 5 ENDS

Judy:Then later on, I was married to a man when I was teaching.

Susan:No way she's...

Judy:Yeah.

Kaylin:So are there any specific movements that any of you remember working with or supporting?

Judy:What do you mean by movements?

Interviewer:Just any big LGBTQ movements. It doesn't have to be here. It could be before you moved here.

Judy:Let me talk about Norfolk for a minute.

Susan:You go right ahead.

Judy:So I lived in Norfolk. The bar that we went to is called the Q Club, and this was, let's see. Katie was born in '71 so this was '71, '72, something like that, and if you were to drive by, you would not know it's anything. You had to 01:37:00know that it was a bar. There may have been one light bulb over the door or something, but very dark, and Norfolk had a vice squad and the vice squad would... It was against the law for same gender people to dance together and so they would come to the bar every once in awhile and check, and so we had people at the door. They knew when it was vice squad and they would flip the lights and we would all immediately change partners, and so that time there was a beginning movement to change some of those laws, and I was barely involved.

Judy:I knew the people and I was friends with a lot of the people but I ended up leaving Norfolk and moving to Harrisonburg with the woman that I met, but so I 01:38:00didn't really get involved in it, but I was aware of it and part of the identifying the problems. So that was kind of my first awareness of a need for a movement of any kind. This was that. So, and I don't know, after that. I mostly tried to survive. [crosstalk]

Susan:And we had been involved with the campaign for Southern equality. Not as intensely as others in the area that we had been involved and been a part of that and I'm trying to think of some of the other... I don't know about movements per se, I guess.... Well, ALPS.

Judy:Oh gosh.

Susan:The Association of Lesbian Professionals. That was hilarious, how that got started. There was, and I don't remember her name. It's been a while. A woman who was either a therapist or a nurse wanted to start an organization for professional lesbians, but Jerry, God bless him, happened to be the editor of out and about, and of course only a man would come up with this name. He said that the organizational meeting of professional lesbian organization for women as opposed to the professional lesbian organization for men.

Susan:I mean we'd want an acronym that spells PLOW.

Judy:The first thing we did was change the name.

Susan:Yeah, and the joke was, well you know, what does a professional lesbian look like? Do we have to have a certain haircut? Only flannel shirts? Do we all have to go buy some Doc Martins? I mean, it was pretty hilarious. So we were involved with that. Not so much, a little bit with lesbians in the mountains, but not a whole lot, and then OLAY. What something... Judy Lawley.

Judy:I know but I can't remember.

Judy:That was an older lesbian group. I know it met over at the United Way building because I went a couple of times. So I don't know if that's movements per se. Those are groups that we belong to. I think Susan and I have been active in supporting any political movements to change laws to be more equitable in any 01:41:00way that we could think of to do it, whether it was a little organization like Sagar, whether it was a democratic party or whatever. We tried to be, not on the forefront. I wouldn't say that's us.

Judy:I would say we're kind of the worker bees and marching. I love to march.

Judy:Whenever there's an opportunity.

Susan:If there's a rally downtown, we're there.

Judy:Those kinds of things all along that we really been involved in.

Susan:I think one thing that happened was when the Affordable Care Act first started, there were not provisions with insurance companies for enrolling same-sex married couples even though same sex marriage had become legal, and so 01:42:00I was enrolling couples and we were being told by the insurance company, "I'm sorry, but we don't do that," and so I started contacting people like lambda and various other groups and I said, "you know what? I don't think it's legal for them to do this. I think somebody needs to do something," and I couldn't because one of the things that we are as navigators is unbiased because we're not selling insurance.

Susan:We're helping people find what will help them with their medical needs, and so I can't advocate for people in that way but I knew there was an issue. So I contacted all these people and got people involved and within maybe a month or two of phone calls and emails that I was sending, all of a sudden, that changed. 01:43:00That was kind of fun. It probably wasn't just me.

Judy:We're probably more the trouble maker.

Susan:Oh my God, yes. They were delighted to see us leave law school. We were the law school scandal, the law community scandal.

Judy:We were the troublemakers. Excuse me. Excuse me. There is not a single woman professor choosing the woman law student of the year, and that is just not okay. You need to have women professors choosing women law students, stuff like that.

Susan:I think that one of the more ironic things, we were involved with the women law students association. I was a president and I forgot. Were you the treasurer?

Judy:I was the damn treasurer. It was the stupidest thing ever.

Susan:Yeah. You as a treasurer is always kind of fascinating. At any rate, so 01:44:00nobody else would do it. It had sort of inadvertently become the white lesbian student association by membership.

Judy:That was the the... everybody said that's what it and so as an organization, we were trying to combat that and say, no, we're just women law students, and then Susan and I got together in that and we ended that.

Susan:I was engaged, she was married and then it was like, well maybe it is, but one of the things that I made a point of doing is that president was, I went to the president of the black law students association and I said, we have got to begin working together if we are going to make real changes to the law school and so would it be okay if I joined the black law students association, and he 01:45:00said, sure, as long as I can join the women in law students association. I said sure. So we did.

Judy:Was that Harold?

Susan:Yeah, that was Harold

Judy:Who became the Georgia Supreme court justice.Susan: Yep.

Judy:I've always liked him. I don't remember if it was Harold. One of those guys who were sitting around a little table, and I forgot, in a coffee shop area or something and he was talking about how he had to babysit his children that weekend, and I went, "oh no baby."

Susan: You do not babysit your children. You look after your children. You are not a babysitter. They are yours. Hello. You are a parent."

Judy:You can see why they were delighted to see us leave law school. Please go.

Susan:There was, while I was in law school, the only protest march my mother 01:46:00ever marched in. There was a Planned Parenthood or choice March that was going on in downtown Atlanta and my mother called me and said, will you come march with me? And I said, sure, you mind if I bring a friend? And she said sure. So I had a law school friend, Karen Adler who went with me and this it was kind of fun. That's all. Anything else?

Kaylin:Yeah, I got a couple. This is a serious one. So addiction and suicide are serious issues within our community. How do you think we can better promote grounded and healthy harm reducing behaviors and how have these realities shaped 01:47:00your journey or people that you know?

Susan:Addiction is, it's an interesting issue because there so many pieces that play into it as well as suicide. I mean, there was a point at which I and my best friend in college, Charles, was also gay, and at one point I was in Atlanta and I don't remember what I was staying there for and driving around and he and I had had a discussion about how we had both at different times contemplated suicide because it was so hard, but it was...

Susan:I had Judy that helped keep me grounded, although there were times when 01:48:00that was interesting.

Judy:I think it's a hard... I don't think there's an easy solution to the whole suicide thing. I'm mostly, it's not like other people don't count, but I'm mostly concerned about teenagers because they are often in a very closed environment. Many of them, they have family and they have school and if they're getting the same messages from family and school about what terrible people they are, how do you impact that? How do you get to those kids?

Judy:I think it's easier in a sense to get to adults because you've got advertising and you've got counseling. Adults can say, I'm going to go to a counselor. Teenagers don't think that way. That's not something-

Susan:And unless a parent frequently is willing to take them, they don't have access.

Susan:So I am a big believer in it gets better. You're familiar with that because my hope is that if we can get stories out there that say, it is survivable. You will be okay. You just have to get through this hard part.

Judy:And you are okay.

Judy:From my Christian perspective, you are a child of God and it was [inaudible]. You're a child of the universe, like the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here. You're just fine, but how to get that message to kids. It's not easy because they are surrounded so often with so many negative messages.

Susan:And because frequently, those of us that would like to get that message are being blocked by very conservative parents, churches, schools.

Stranger 3:[inaudible].

Susan: [inaudible] Well, I have to admit I'm happy to no longer be doing domestic law. Where 01:52:0001:51:00were we? What were we doing?

Kaylin:Oh, we were just talking about addiction and suicide within our community.

Susan:Oh yeah. I remember at one point, and this was before I realized I was gay, I made a comment to my parents because I knew that there was life insurance that said I'm worth more to you dead than I am alive, and it just shocked the hell out of them and they said, don't you ever say that, and it was like but it's true. I think one of the things that we need that we don't do well, and 01:53:00it's in many ways because of the type of society we have and the emphasis it's placed on your monetary worth.

Susan:If you aren't making big bucks, you don't count. You're worthless and that seems to be a lot of what we're hearing out of Washington is we don't care about you. You are a little person and somebody to be serving us, not someone that we should serve because we don't do that because we have money, and we don't value people for the gifts that they have unless they can show a hefty bank balance, and I think until we can change that, it's going to be hard because lesbians especially...

Judy:What's interesting-Susan:Tend to not have big bank balances.

Judy:One of the kids that I have talked to recently, my granddaughter for example, talk about gay and lesbian people almost like it's normal. When I was in high school, you didn't say the words. There were no words. There was just conversation and now my granddaughter will say, Oh I've got this friend and she's a lesbian and she's raised in a very conservative environment and homeschooled but for teenagers now, it's a much more normalized conversation. I think that's one thing that's going to help with kids coming along. As far as addiction goes, addiction is addiction. There frequently is a physiological 01:55:00genetic component to that.

Judy:My sister's an addict. She's been sober for a long, long, long, long time, but still and I think my grandmother was an alcoholic. There can be any trigger for that but I don't think people become addicts because they're gay. Does that make sense?

Kaylin:Yeah, absolutely.

Judy:I think gay people probably fall into the addiction, cross over that social drinking to addiction line because of some of the emotional burdens that they're dealing with, and again, if we can kind of get our society to see us as normal people, some of that's going to go. Addiction is not going to be cured, but hopefully it will help.

Susan:I understand a little bit about what you're saying in that one of the things also that can happen with adults that is much harder for kids is you can ask around when you are looking for a therapist and say, is there someone that you know that's lesbian friendly or that I can go to that's LGBT friendly?

Susan:Same with attorneys. There are a lot of people who want to find somebody if they are going through a divorce or a split or whatever, who isn't going to be judging them every step of the way. They want somebody who will be supportive and who will treat their relationship in the same way as they would any 01:57:00heterosexual couple who was going through the same issue.

Judy:When when I was teaching in Virginia, that's when I had this abusive partner and I desperately needed to talk to a therapist, but I was terrified that if I went to a therapist, the therapist would contact the department of social services and they would take my daughter. So I didn't go to therapy when I desperately needed it because of that giant fear of what the system would do to me and to my daughter.

Susan:Well, there was a time when if we had gone to a therapist, not just might she have lost her daughter, but we could have been committed and put through electroshock therapy.

Judy:That's what I was afraid Susan's dad was going to do when she came out to her parents. I was terrified he was going to have her committed because being gay was a psychological disability until they changed the DSM-4.

Judy:I think it was four or five.

Susan:I think it was four. The big book of psychological disorders that psychiatrists use.

Judy:Diagnostic something manual. Anyhow, I just, I think for me the whole suicide addiction thing for me is really kids. I just, I worry so much about kids.

Judy:I don't have a solution.

Susan:Yeah. I do worry about adults too, especially young adults, some of whom have been thrown out and who've been told a long time that they are a worthless piece of garbage.

Judy:I think one reason the young lady that we have living with us right now is 01:59:00homeless, is because she told her family she was asexual, and I don't know if she knows what that means really, or what she means by it and we haven't gotten into that conversation. I don't care. It's not my business, and she also announced she was an atheist.

Judy:I think the family then said, we're done with you, but it happens too much. So the little piece of the universe that I'm doing, you know the story about throwing the starfish back. You ever heard of that? Two people were walking down the beach and there's all these starfish being washed by the tide and one of them keeps bending down, picking up the starfish and throwing it back in the water, and the other one says, why are you doing this? You're not going to change anything because the starfish is still going to wash up. He said, well, yeah, but it matters to that starfish. I'm throwing one back. That starfish is 02:00:00going to make it, and that's kind of how I feel.

Judy:I do what I can in my little piece and it may only be my little piece, but I'm doing what I can, and I think that's what I'm called to do and tell about helping people over the ditch. Oh, and then this is my last story. I don't know if you've ever heard of Daisy Knight. Daisy Knight is this woman in the Seattle area who channels Ramtha. I don't know what I believe about all that-

Susan:Big thing in the '80s.

Judy:But she made a lot of money doing it.

Susan:'70s actually, I guess.

Judy:But she said the story she tells about how this all came about. She and her husband were, they'd stayed up all night because at one point in time, it was believed that pyramids were the solution. The physical form of a pyramid was a solution to everything and you could build pyramids and put it over food and it would because of the shape of it and then whatever in the universe, it would dry 02:01:00out the food. So they were staying up all night, making all these pyramids to dry foods so they could go camping.

Judy:It's the '70s. What can I say? And so they were sitting at their breakfast table and if you look up and down the hall comes this big figure, this figure of a man and he says to her, I've come to help you over the ditch. So whether I believe that she channels Ramtha or not, I've always loved that as a visualization of what I do. I can't make the ditch go away. I can't fix you. I can't change anything, but I can hold out my hand and help you over the ditch and that's what I do.

Kaylin:Well said.

Susan:I wish I could snap my fingers and the issues of addiction and suicide 02:02:00would be fixed, but whether it's a hard conversation to have regardless of the sexuality of the person and it is even harder and more difficult if they are LGBTQ and they are younger and cannot get out and access help, and I know a lot of it comes about from bullying at school. The number of kids who have been bullied to the point of feeling that their only way out was to commit suicide rather than go back and face it again. I get that too. I lived through some of 02:03:00that when I was in grammar school.

Kaylin:Do you have any experiences from that that you'd like to tell?

Susan:When I moved to Atlanta from Buffalo where my dad had been in training and then we moved to Atlanta and he started the division of rheumatology...

Stranger 4:How come you're not doing anything. Oh you are. You're studying.

Kaylin:Yeah, I'm asking the questions, actually. We're having a little interview.

Judy:We're busy. We're all involved.

Stranger 4:I can't crochet but I can knit and weave.

Judy:Oh wow. That is very easy.

Stranger 4:I'll have her teach you.

Judy:Seriously, it's easier than knitting.

Susan:My dad crocheted and did needle point and knitted.

Stranger 4:I haven't tried to needle point, although I think I'd like to do that.

Judy:I can't see well enough to do it anymore.

Susan:That's my problem. I can't see it well enough to do it either. Thank you. You too, and because I had this weird Northern accent, and was this new kid in the fourth grade, everybody made fun of me, but it wasn't just making fun. Looking back, these were kids that were not some of the nicest anyway, and when I say not some of the nicest, what I mean is when they would get together and 02:05:00really gang up on anybody, they would literally throw sticks and stones after me, and there's a nerve in here that we can pinch. It's extremely painful and would do that, would chase me away if I tried to join into certain things.

Susan:I wasn't the most coordinated kid, so it wasn't like I had much of anything. So yeah, I know how cruel kids can be and there were times when I would wake up on Monday mornings and I would cry because I knew I had to go through a whole other week. It was not fun, but things got better. That was a good thing.

Kaylin:What would you guys say this area needs to better support and include 02:06:00LGBTQ people?

Susan:If there's certain things that I'm grateful they exist now, which is LGBT groups in UNCA and other places. I wish we had something similar to closer.

Judy:I really feel like closer ended because they said, Oh, we don't need it anymore but I'm not sure that's true. What it provided was a place for people new to town to connect with everyone else. So I really would like to see 02:07:00something like closer happen again, where there be a place for new people to come and just people would come to meet on occasion, not a bar, and I love bars. Don't get me wrong, I love IPAs.

Judy:I like to go sit at a bar and talk to the person on the next stool. It's just my favorite thing to do but the nice thing about closer was it wasn't a bar scene. It wasn't a pickup scene. It's a place where people could go and talk about, I need a therapist, or I need a whatever, a lawyer or a realtor, and we could kind of get community and invitation. I just don't think social media does it. It's not personal. Social media is too out there. Too many people know too much about you, but they don't really know you. So I would love to see something like that happen. We've got, I don't know how you-

PART 4 OF 5 ENDS

Judy:... something like that happened. I don't know how Youth OutRight is doing. Do you know about Youth OutRight?

Kaylin:No, not really.

Judy:Oh, gosh. Oh wow, there's so much to tell you. Youth OutRight as an organization that, and I think it still exists, is for high school students.

Susan:Yeah, it does, for LGBTQ, and young 20s.

Judy:Yeah, and questioning kids, to come and just get together. They have a lot of information about everything from safe sex to how to get a job or how not to lose a job, a lot of those kind of conversations. That's one way to combat this whole suicide issue with kids is to have an organization like that, that kids can come to that's safe for them. The problem is, with many of those kids their parents have to say it's okay and many, of course, parents aren't going to do 02:09:00that. Some kids come without their parents, it's kind of dicey.

Judy:But anyhow, having something like Youth OutRight for adults, an organization that when people start looking at Asheville, they can see here's a group you could come, get to meet people. We used to have ... Y'all have a really good day.

Stranger 4:You have a wonderful one.

Susan:Okay.

Judy:Oh, we will. Thank you. We'd have speakers that would come and talk about estate issues because in those days if you couldn't get married the only way you could leave property to a partner would be through estate planning. Things like that, issues like that. Medical people to come and talk about HIV prevention and safe sex and stuff.

SusanSafe doctors to go to.

Judy:Yeah.

Judy:There would be people who would come and just talk about basic survival things. I think that would be really an important thing to have. I don't know how to get something like that started, everybody's so busy, but I do think that would be a really good thing to have here.

Susan:I think at one point there was an attempt to get a ... There was a gay fatherhood group that was here. I know that most of those men are now grandfathers.

Judy:It does happen.

Susan:I don't know if it's still going on, but ... And again, most of these were from the 90s and it was because they did not have access to their children, or 02:11:00if they did-

Judy:Very limited.

Susan:Right. There were discussions about how to deal with loving your kids and having limited access to your kids. How to still be a good father, how to do what needed to be done. There was a lesbian parent group that was here, because a lot of single mothers that needed support systems, and these were some of the support systems that people were looking to do.

Susan:Nicholas is 37. We're talking ... This was something when he was about eight or nine, so it's been a while. We have not been really involved in some of these groups, but these are groups that I think are especially important to LGBT families simply because there are still some things.

Judy:There is a family group through Campaign for Southern Equality. It's LGBT families or something like that, that gets together and they'll have a picnic or just a gathering.

Susan:Yeah, we've done that often.

Judy:We've been to some of those. There is that group. I don't know how active that is.

Susan:I don't think they've done a picnic in a while.

Judy:They have, we just don't get the emails anymore.

Susan:Oh. Well, one of the other things that Campaign for Southern Equality did at one point that was wonderful, but I think it just got to be too much, was they put on an LGBTQ conference and it had a legal component to it. That's where I would go to get CLE, continuing legal education credits. There were different 02:13:00tracks. There was one for younger individuals, some for if you were involved in church life, because there were several ... Jasmine's a minister. It was just social-

Judy:Yeah. There was one that we did-

Susan:An advocacy.

Judy:They called it a parish hall, but at the UCC church where there are all those stations, remember?

Susan:Oh, yeah.

Judy:They had a pretty good track with a couple of ... I think Pisgah had a booth and legal aid had a booth.

Susan:I had a booth.

Judy:Yeah. Something like that I think is really good. Maybe we should talk to Jasmine about doing it again.

Susan:Well, and not just Jasmine. I know that there have been some ... People don't think of the council on aging with UNCA, but there had been some things at 02:14:00UNCA that had to do with local supports that students might need and that kind of stuff. I would go because it doesn't matter your age, if you need insurance, I can help people find insurance if they fall within certain parameters through the Affordable Care Act, and many students do. Of course, many students are on their parents' insurance still, thank goodness, that wasn't always allowed. I don't know how many students really paid that much attention to all of that.

Susan:We did do, at one point, a Western North Carolina health fair, and we did it at the UCC church, but the Western Carolina Medical Society and I, with the 02:15:00help of one of their young interns, we put it on and we got all sorts of people to come and not that many people showed. Things got crazy the next year and so we didn't continue it. I kind of wish we had, but my co-organizer went to graduate school and it kind of ended.

Judy:Do you know what time it is? [inaudible]

Kaylin:It is 1:04.

Judy:Oh my. I'm sorry.

Kaylin:No, it's okay.

Judy:I just went, "Oh my gosh, it's afternoon."

Kaylin:Yeah. I don't know if there's a specific time you guys need to be back. I can try and wrap this up with a couple more questions.

Judy:I can't-

Susan:We want to let you get on with your day too.

Judy:Yeah.

Susan:I can't believe there's anything else that we haven't told you.

Judy:Yeah.

Susan:Unfortunately, we're attorneys so we talk.

Judy:We talk too much.

Kaylin:No, it's great. Let's see. Okay, are there any particular individuals who have impacted you as you came to identify with the LGBTQ community?

Judy:Joan and Dan Marshall. They were it for us. They were wonderful. They're both deceased now, but when we came they were very supportive and respectful of our gifts. They were wonderful. They got us in touch with people when we needed it.

Susan:I would say Bishop Johnson.

Judy:Bishop Johnson, too. That thing has been all over the floor. I don't know what's wrong.

Susan:Anybody else you can think of?

Judy:I'm trying to think back to those early days. I didn't have anybody.

Susan:You were with me, but when we came here, Joan and Dan, the other members of Closer. Betty Sharpless and Carlos Gomez, Cynthia and Charlotte.Judy:Oh good-

Susan:Cyn Chadwick. Janet Harvey.

Judy:Cyn Chadwick's an author, if you haven't read her books you should. Just saying, C-Y-N Chadwick. She writes books about lesbians, but they're not ... 02:18:00It's not just sex stuff. Let's see. She used to teach at UNCA, just retired. Oh, goodness gracious.

Susan:Monroe Moore is someone that you can ask about. He and his ex adopted three wonderful children, but he is someone to talk to about parenthood. Cyn raised her boys.

Judy:Cyn would be fascinating to interview, by the way.

Kaylin:Do you have their contact details by chance?

JudyI don't know if I have their personals, but Cyn is on Facebook.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:Let's see. I don't know that I ... I haven't contacted her in years, although I would say we were still friends. If I were to call her she'd say, "Oh yeah, let's go have a beer."

Susan:Yeah, there's some people that we've unfortunately lost touch with. My friend Charles, who actually lives in Atlanta.

Judy:I don't have Cyn.

Susan:Let me see if I did ... I'll send her a message and-

Susan:Charlotte [inaudible] and ... I'm trying to remember Cynthia's last name. Charlotte was a professor at UNCA.

Judy:I will send ... Because I think it would be more fascinating for you to interview her than us because we'd be all doing [inaudible]. But I will send her a message on Facebook and tell her that you're interviewing people and that if 02:20:00it would be okay, here's your phone number and that if she would be willing to be interviewed by you.

Kaylin:That would be wonderful, yeah.

Judy:You would love ... I mean, she will tell you some stories.

Kaylin:That would be great, thank you.

Judy:In the meanwhile, I strongly recommend reading one of her books.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:And then when you talk to her-

Kaylin:Yeah, I can bring it in.

Judy:Stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke.

Kaylin:Yeah.

Susan:I've got an email, but it may be an old email, I have no idea.

Judy:I know that I can get her through Facebook.

Susan:Cynthia would be fascinating to talk to also. Charlotte and Cynthia.

Judy:Are they still around? For some reason I thought they left.

Susan:I think they're still here.

Judy:I haven't seen them in a very long time.

Susan:Another couple that actually has been ... Melissa Hicks and Ann Brown. Melissa is a physician with MAHEC and is a midwife doula.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:You might be able to get Ann. Melissa is so freaking busy that I don't know that she would have time.

Susan:Betty Sharpless is also somebody.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:We could interview any of these people but it's not going to be the same because they'd be going, "Oh, do you remember the time when we were ..." "Yeah, yeah I ..."

Susan:Janet Harvey, who has been both a family mediator and hospital chaplain. Millie Morrow. Millie is a priest at All Souls.

Kaylin:Okay.

Susan:She right now is probably busier than ants at a picnic too, so I don't know if you can get Millie to stand still long enough to do anything like this.

Judy:I think Cindy would love it.

Judy:Judy Lawley would be very-

Susan:Oh my goodness. Judy Lawley for sure.Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:Judy ... Yeah, she's way senior, she's older than me. It's just really weird, she's such a sweetheart.

Susan:She was a realtor here for many, many years.

Judy:I'm going to give you her phone number and tell her that Judy and Susan told you to call her.

Kaylin:Absolutely. Thank you.

Susan:Her daughter, Karen Lawley, is also a lesbian.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:But talk to Judy, you will be entranced. She was a realtor. In fact, at one point in time-

Susan:She's how we found our house.

Judy:Yeah. Judy was a realtor. And then Teresa-

Susan :Teresa Roach.

Judy:Worked for GMC mortgage or something like that.

Susan:She's now with ... She's a broker.

Judy:I was doing real estate closings and so we had this little triumvirate where we'd bring cases to each other and we worked together. Best closings ever, because all three of us knew [inaudible] stuff, we had our ducks in a row, so 02:23:00when we had a closing we sat down, we signed the paperwork, done. So many times these closings go on for days, but Judy and Teresa and I, we rocked.

Susan:Eleanor.

Judy:Oh, come on. Why?

Judy:What's Teresa's ... Because it's J-U-D-I, isn't it?

Susan:Yeah, it is.

Judy:Okay.

Kaylin:That's a good note to make.

Judy:Okay. There's her phone number.

Kaylin:Okay, thank you.

Judy:She probably would prefer that you come by her house.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:I don't know how mobile she is these days.

Kaylin:Yeah.

Judy:I know she's getting less and less able to get around unless somebody takes her.

Kaylin:Thank you.

Judy:Oh, yeah. I would say between Judy and Cyn Chadwick, those should be your 02:24:00number one and number two.

Susan:I'm sorry that Adelaide Key is no longer with us.

Judy:Oh my gosh.

Susan:But Maggie Smith, who was her wife. You want to know about politics, Adelaide Key was one of the major funders of Democrats for a long time.

Judy:Her father was one of Roosevelt's, right?

Susan:Yeah. He was in Roosevelt's cabinet and he also happened to be the owner/editor, I think, of the Raleigh News and Observer.

Judy:We're talking President Roosevelt.

Kaylin:Oh, wow.

Judy:Adelaide grew up in big politics and knowing a lot of people. I'm sorry she's gone, she was an amazing woman.

Susan:But Maggie herself is an amazing woman.

Judy:Yeah, that's true too.

Judy:One person who's been a really, I don't know what I would say, really good 02:25:00friend and also a help to us in parsing out some these things is Susan Fisher. Susan is a representative and she's just ... Her daughter is also a lesbian, married to a transgender man. But anyhow, Susan is just ... She's been really good for us and vice-versa.

Susan:Right. Many of the strides that we have made in legislation here have been directly ... Like anti-school bullying and some other things, directly as a result of Susan. When the legislature isn't crazy I'm sure she would love to talk to you, but right now is not a good time probably.

Susan:Oh, yeah. Amendment One, that was delightful, that was a pain.

Judy:The bathroom bill.

Susan:Well, no.

Judy:Wasn't it?

Susan:This was the one that codified in our state constitution that marriage was between man and a woman.

Judy:Right. I was thinking-

Susan:I was running for the House at that time. I sat on panels with others and we talked about our spouses and our relationships and that they were really not different than anybody else's, but it was simply because I happened to love a woman that our relationship was being discriminated against. Yeah, that was fascinating. The bathroom bill came later, that was also a delight because I would be dealing with attorneys and others at conferences or different places and they would be talking about, "Yeah, I made a point of bringing my birth 02:27:00certificate with me so that I wouldn't have any trouble getting into a bathroom."

Susan:Dr. Eddleman ... I keep wanting to say Charles but I know Charles is not correct. He is the regional democratic LGBT group leader who helped get the Buncombe County group started. Still comes ... Damn it. Give me a minute, I'll look his name up. Lamb, Ron Lambe. Ron Lambe was one of the first people to run for office in Asheville, and he ran back in the 90s. When we first came, he was 02:28:00another person who was very helpful to us.

Susan:Elaine, who unfortunately has passed away. We've got to get her ... Oh, Midge.

Judy:Well, we'll deal with Midge.

Susan:Well no, I was just thinking she would be someone to interview.

Judy:No. I'm telling you, she won't do it.

Susan:Okay.

Judy:She might do it for me, but she won't do it if I don't talk her into it.

Susan:Well ... Okay, she might on Elaine's behalf.

Judy:I don't know.

Susan:Is Baer still around, Emperor Gentry? Baer was very influential, he was a Greek Orthodox priest from [inaudible]

Judy:No, Russian Orthodox priest. Not Russian, but a Russian Orthodox priest, a priest in the Russian Orthodox church, because they would ordain a gay man. Go figure.

Susan:Yeah, very bizarre.

Stranger 5:Thanks for paving the way for us [inaudible]

Susan:We have done what we could.

Judy:Yeah.

Susan:It's not over.

Judy:Yeah.

Susan:There's still plenty of work.

Judy:You can do much too, it's just being there.

Susan:Yeah. Let me see what I've got in here. The question was who are the people influential to us, not who all can she interview.

Kaylin:It's great, though. This is wonderful, thank you guys.

Susan:Jack Parsons actually was one of the first LGBT people we knew at church. 02:30:00Bill Stokes was too, but he's not here. Let me tell you-

Judy:Well, we didn't interact with Bill that much really.

Susan:I did.

Judy:Yeah.

Susan:But that's when I sang in the choir. But I remember Bill, yeah. Oh, right. Clay Eddleman. He will talk to you. He's in Henderson, actually.

Kaylin:Okay.

Susan:828-692-6979. He's a retired physician.

Kaylin:Okay.

Judy:That should be an interesting perspective.

Susan:Yeah.

Susan:Someone else that you need to interview is Paula Dawkins and her wife Carol.

Judy:I don't know if they're together anymore. They were business partners.

Susan:They were apart for a while and now they're back together.

Judy:Oh, are they?

Susan:Yes. They, and in fact, you have to hurry because they're closing Jewels That Dance, which is kind of sad.

Kaylin:Okay.

Susan:But if you get ahold of them, probably once all the dust settles from closing the business they would probably be more than willing to talk to you. They will know Asheville from the old days. Susan and I have been here in '91, they were years and years before that and can really give you some perspective on Asheville.

Kaylin:Thank you. All right you guys, I think that's all the main questions that I'm going to bother you with.

Judy:Okay. Not a bother.

Kaylin:Are there any closing statements, any stories or anything that you really feel like you want to say before we end?

Judy:I want to say that there's nothing more important than people's stories. Not my story, but everybody's story, everybody has a story. I don't think there's anything more important, which is why this project is so great, because peoples stories are important.

Kaylin:Thank you.

Susan:I also think that ... You were talking about, and this is why I think the It Gets Better Project is helpful, is that the stories are what help get people through. You went through something either that was so much worse or ... It's 02:33:00people's stories that help us to see each other as people. We were talking about one of the first retreats we ever went on was a woman's retreat in 1993. The women that we were going on the retreat with were women who had the Pearls, they lived in Biltmore Forest, they were professors and teachers and therapists, but they were professionals and high-powered, or at least that was our perception. We went on this retreat, we were newly minted lawyers struggling with our firm.

Judy:I think he likes to make all that noise.

Susan:At the retreat they became people and not these distant perceptions, because we heard their stories and we found that they had been through some horrendous things. There were some funny moments, like when they realized that we were a couple and they didn't know any gay people and could they ask us questions. We knew they knew gay people because we knew the gay people they knew, they just didn't realize. But we said, "Sure." Several of them have passed 02:35:00away, but they were always good friends, and many of them still are that are still with us.

Susan:We've had friends who we knew when they were married and were raising their kids who later came out and said, "You know, I think I'm gay". We've had friends that were involved with same-sex people who then said, "You know what? This is not working for me," and then got an opposite sex partner. But it's the stories and how people get through the things that we all get through that I think are going to make a difference as to whether or not we can get the next 02:36:00generation there.

Susan:Because until we started telling our stories, until we started being visible, we were nothing but pariahs, people to be despised. We were evil incarnate. We were by definition pedophiles.

Judy:My favorite is degenerate. I loved it.

Susan:Yeah, we were degenerate.

Susan:Yeah, it was ... Yeah. I've had interesting conversations with people when I was standing outside of polling booths and we would talk about things and I would keep trying to steer us towards things that we could agree on, because if we could find things that we agreed on I would be somebody that they would see 02:37:00and hear in a way that they never would otherwise. Unfortunately, what we have lost in much of our political life today is trying to find where we connect and our common ground and then working from there.

Judy:Instead, we start off with the things we disagree with.

Susan:Right.

Judy:It makes no sense.

Susan:At any rate, that's our story and we're sticking to it.

Kaylin:Thank you.

Susan:And we actually ... Here's the only other weird thing. One of the reasons why we got married in '93 on the day we did, which was the day after Thanksgiving, I have no clue what the date was, was because I knew we would always remember the day after Thanksgiving. When we got legally married, I had failed to realize this was actually on Wednesday, which we don't really think of 02:38:00as our anniversary. It was like someone said, "What's your legal anniversary," thinking, "What's your anniversary of when you legally got married?" I said, "Oh, I guess it was Wednesday."

Judy:"Some day in November."

Susan:Yeah, but we always celebrate it the day after Thanksgiving.

Kaylin:Yeah. That's great.

Susan:Thank you for doing this.

Kaylin:Yeah. No, thank you guys. It means a lot. Yeah, I'll send you guys the transcript when we get that.

Susan:Okay, sure.

Judy:The 150-page transcript.