Oral History with Allison Scott

Allison Scott Interview Transcript

March 8th, 2019 8am

GW - Grace Whittaker (Interviewer)

AS - Allison Scott (Interviewee)

GW: Hi, I'm Grace Whittaker and I'm a senior and UNC Asheville. I'm studying English Literature and Environmental Science. I'm interviewing you today as an intern with UNC Asheville and Blue Ridge Pride to add to their oral histories project documenting LGBTQ communities in Western North Carolina (WNC). With your permission, we're hoping to archive your story and personal experience in the special collections of UNC Asheville. To begin, would you share your name with me? And how do you spell it?

AS: Yes, it's Allison (A-L-L-I-S-O-N) Scott (S-C-O-T-T).

GW: Alright, and Allison, how do you identify today?

AS: Wow, that's a deep question. I usually use trans woman or transgender woman.

GW: Alright, and how long have you lived in Asheville?

AS: Since 1974. [muffled] The year I was born.

GW: So you were born here?

AS: My family and everything- everyone is from here, but through a fluke, I wasn't actually born in Asheville. I was supposed to be, and my parents had to make a road trip for something and my mom had a medical issue which caused her to go into labor, so I ended up being born by accident- an accidental birth in South Carolina-- but, you know, we came right back. And our home was here--it's not like it was planned So, it's kind of funny in a way.

GW: So, you were not brought to Asheville; you were born and raised here as a native?

AS: Yes, and my family, for several generations actually.

GW: Several generations?

AS: Mhm

GW: Do you know what brought them here?

AS: Well, my mother's family originally settled-- well, I don't know about originally, but-- they came from Morganton and Old Fort, those areas. They were 00:02:00of German descent. I don't know where they came from before that but I know that's where...most of her family is. On my father's side, his family was Woodfin and [Barnesville?], and I know they have...been there for at least 3 previous generations, in both areas.

GW: So, as a native, what things have you seen that have changed since your time being born here and then up till today?

AS: I think the biggest change has probably been Asheville's-- I think most people call it the revitalization of Asheville?-- that really started coming about in the late, mid to late 1990's. Before that, Asheville was less of a 00:03:00tourist town and with this shift to tourism and a revitalization gradually of downtown, it changed the culture of Asheville in various ways, some good and some bad. But yeah, this entire shift from Western NC being a textile and manufacturing hub into a tourism, high precision, higher paid jobs with bio tech, medical, and skilled manufacturing, it has definitely changed and brought in lot of new people from all over the place.

GW: Is there anything do you think that's changed in the negative? Things that have changed that have either negatively impacted you or the town itself?

AS: Yeah, the queer culture in Asheville when I was in elementary, middle, high school and college aged, was very close and very centered in certain pockets of Asheville, and with this shift and a lot of people moving into the area, it did spread out. In some ways, that would seemingly be a good thing, but it has also caused the culture to maybe lose some of that community that we had at one time; and also with people who had been together for a very long time and had just understood the struggles of living in the South, because people have moved 00:05:00in--even queer people have moved in maybe from other pockets of the United States, especially north or west where they didn't understand the intricacies of being queer in the South, so there's also I think it goes back to that perception that Asheville is very progressive, and I think that it's progressive if you measure it against other places in the South, but a lot of that just comes from some of the people that have moved here.

[5:32]

GW: So, for the really specific of pockets of people, do you feel like that's characteristic of a lot of communities in the South? And [do] you think maybe Asheville has, with more people coming in, we have more queer people here, but we've maybe lost some of that Southern identity?

AS: Yeah, it is, you know, if you look at the percentage of people, we've 00:06:00definitely increased. The queer population has increased, but if you look at where the people are coming from, you can't help but be influenced by how you were raised, where you were raised, and being queer in the south...is dramatically different than being queer...anywhere else in the United States. When I talk to people who are in the LGBTQ+ community and they did not grow up in the South, and they did move here, and we start talking about something when I was younger and when, you know, being in the late/early 80s and 90s, and I started talking to them about what it was like as a youth trying to navigate the culture of the South and coming out and exploring who I was, I see the shock oftentimes, that people hear the stories, but they'll even go, "wow, I hear that and I've never actually spoken to somebody where that was the case, I thought 00:07:00maybe it was isolated, not here in Asheville." So yeah, you get that; it's again, they don't know what they don't know, and they think that...the Asheville they're in today has always been this way. But this is not representative of the Asheville that was here 20 years and back, and the southern-- what it was like to be queer in the South 20 years and back.

GW: Right, so for you, who has been here 20 years and back, how would you say that you ended growing up in both the South but also in the queer community itself?

[7:47]

AS: Well, it was really difficult for me. My parents were not supportive. I'm typically what's called an early identifier with my gender--that I was 00:08:00expressing that very early on with no support from my family. Yeah, my family represented a lot of the South, they were high school education at most; no one in the immediate family had any post-high school education. Religion has always had a place in the South. Even people who may not say they're religious or go to church, it still shaped their views of the world, and that definitely shaped my conversations with my parents and my family as I was trying to express who I was early on.

GW: Do you have any specific stories of any instances that were memorable to you at that period?

AS: Yeah, when I was young. Again, being poor and in the south--and we were poor. There was even a couple times in my life we were homeless--it was difficult, coming out. I was teased and bullied at school relentlessly. I 00:09:00actually ended up changing high schools from my junior year, between my sophomore and junior year because of being picked on and bullied. I couldn't escape it, so I moved to another high school here in Buncombe county trying to escape it. But I couldn't even escape it at home either. My parents were completely unsupportive; my father actually threatened me and used the same slurs that were being used at school. He'd ofttimes say that, you know, his son wasn't a faggot, and so I couldn't escape it. I couldn't escape it anywhere except when I could find other people in my community. That was the only escape for me.

GW: So how did you end up building a network for yourself growing up and then also now in Asheville?

AS: That was the hardest part. I didn't find that network until late in high 00:10:00school because there weren't as many people who were out. I always wish we'd had, like, a secret sign or something that we could identify with because our schools didn't have any GSAs. I mean, there's no way that was gonna exist. You never told anyone if your sexuality or gender didn't fit these norms that everybody expected. So, the way I found it was actually when [SLAM] I got my driver's license when I was 16 and I was able to start getting out on my own and found some little pockets of that--like Malaprops, that was around--and started 00:11:00being able to venture out and see that--just run into people in these spaces that somehow we all found ourselves navigating to even without a roadmap, which I always thought was amazing. It's like there wasn't signs up, like "go this way if you're queer and this is a space;" it seemed like people found it just seredipidly

just and it was an amazing experience to run into people and start talking. It was -- you found people in your tribe and then start sharing: oh here's another cool place you can go to, here's another cool place. Because y'know, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have a lot of things that made finding spaces easy.

GW: So, you mentioned Malaprops as one of those spaces, especially early on -- do you have any other specific places as well?

AS: Um, Scandals

GW: Scandals?

AS: Uh, I actually went there when I was eighteen, you could get in with a wristband and you could drink and you could get in. And... Scandals, later on 00:12:00called Hair Spray, actually opened up too, but wasn't open when I was 18. I remember, I went to Scandals one night, when I was 18, and it was the most amazing experience up to that point in my life. I went there and there were people who looked like me. Or, I should say, there were people who looked trans. And that was the first time I'd seen, really, a group of people, who looked like I felt. And it was amazing. I walked in and I was -- I was in this room. And y'know this was a time before it was cool for cis straight people to go to queer clubs, so you didn't go to a club like this unless you fit in in that club, and, 00:13:00um, it was a different vibe, a different group of people. And I go in this room and I just -- I started crying. I was like, to see all these people, that otherwise I'd only seen made fun of and parodied either on really horrible talk shows or being made fun of in public. To see people all together, who finally represented, or looked like me. I just sat down in the back of the room -- I sat down on the table and just looked around, and I just started crying. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't -- it was like walking into this magical universe, this magic door, and all of a sudden I'd finally found my home. And it, um, it gave 00:14:00me courage to come out. To actually -- to finally see people. Gave me courage to come out more than I ever had before. I'd tried several times over the years, and finally seeing that gave me strength to start exploring and saying, "Yeah, this is who I am."

GW: Yeah. Did you end up connecting with any of the people there to go on and make friends outside of that space, or was it mostly just that space you stayed in?

AS: Yeah, um, well -- that's the other part of the south, is there's not a lot of places to go. So, for -- if people living an hour or two hours in either direction, the south is extremely rural, and there's not a lot of places. So a lot of people drove to Asheville, specifically for Scandals, to have a safe place to go to. So as I started talking to people, and meeting people, I realized that probably more than half of them lived out in the county. Not even 00:15:00Buncombe, but even surrounding [counties] like Yancy and Franklin and-- McDowell and all these places, and they were coming some place to be safe, and also fear of being seen in their own town. So, I did have a few friendships when they were in that space, but it was difficult because most people lived, in that time, what would be considered further away. But, yeah, I did have a few friends that I met out there who were close to my age, and it was nice.

GW: So, we've talked about Scandals, which is a night club essentially. But, and you can go when you're 18, at least, and then Malaprops, which, is to my 00:16:00understanding, you can go during the day but also at any age, as a space. Do you think it's important to have those differentiation in spaces?

AS: It was -- yes, definitely, it's definitely important to have those spaces. But, you have to remember, again, back then, um, even with Malaprops or something it could still be dangerous because some way you had to walk and be outside to get inside. And I remember talking to people who had been to Malaprops, y'know, we'd all look for the queer book section and these authors and stories that would resonate with us. But people would talk about how scary it was, even parking somewhere and walking to the store itself, down the street, down the sidewalk. So, yes, it's important -- critically important to have that space, but people still have to traverse from somewhere to get to that space, 00:17:00and that can be a danger -- a dangerous zone, a dangerous time for many people.

GW: Especially because at that time, Asheville wasn't what it is today. It was still definitely the rural south.

AS: Yeah, Asheville, the downtown was in its revitalization, there wasn't food, and artists everywhere, it was still mostly boarded up, those places were closed. So, it was just different -- population downtown, there were actually more people living downtown. My grandmother lived right in the center of downtown, in an apartment building where the federal building is now, and we lived with her quite a bit over the years. And there were a lot of people that lived downtown, but again, these were mostly rural southerners living downtown, so, to be openly queer would get often times harassed and put you into physical 00:18:00danger. So it wasn't like downtown was slow and boarded up, but you can at least get to where you needed to go like Malaprops. No, there were people down there. It wasn't as busy as it is now, and people downtown represented the rural south, and that danger of being visibly queer in the south.

GW: So, having grown up here especially in the 80s and 90s, did you find yourself a part of any of the movements of that era? Either the civil rights era, or the gay liberation movement, anything like that?

AS: Where I could, but again, it was dangerous, in the 80s, y'know, you look at '84 and all that, I was only 15 in '84. So, really, until I turned 16 and was 00:19:00able to drive and start getting out on my own, I couldn't be a part of anything. There was just no way. There was no way to get to some movement if it was happening, or even if I'd found out it was happening. And when I was able to drive, simply even going to a space like Malaprops, or going to Scandals, or going to a club, it's kind of a revolutionary act in the South in itself, back then, because again, to be visibly queer in public was revolutionary. I mean, it wasn't like going to a rally, like a political rally or a direct action rally, just walking down the street would often times create more talk, more conversation -- just the safety factor of getting to these places made it 00:20:00difficult when I was old enough to drive and be on my own.

GW: Do you have any LGBTQ organizations, either growing up or now that you've found yourself either a part of, or you've seen really end up helping or targeting your different communities?

[20:30]

AS: Um, yeah. Well, Blue Ridge Pride always did the pride parade, and I remember the pride parade when it was almost really a parade. There was times where it was, in Asheville, when it was in highschool. And I always thought that was amazing. Then Asheville kind of when through a slow down of organizations that were actively involved here. And then the next big revolution was when marriage equality started being fought and that's when the campagin for Southern Equality 00:21:00started in 2011. So you got the huge gap, between the 90s and 2010, 2011 when these talks were coming about. And marriage pride did some things, but again, the scope of those were often limited. And being trans puts me in the unique space -- they were often times focused on either cis white gay male or cis white lesbian culture or identities, and I felt -- never felt I didn't fit into those because it didn't matter what my sexuality was, being trans overwrote everything else. And I wasn't welcome into many communities, y'know, being a night club or 00:22:00bookstore or some space but when you go to show up for political change or social change, it was different, and often times there was a lot of rejection for trans people. We didn't fit into our own queer culture in some spaces, and it was hard. So, identifying with -- if there were other groups operating, I think Phoenix operated a transgender supported group, operated for a long time, but I think it was super small, and more of a support group. So I didn't feel like I fit into most of these movements for most of my life, because they didn't talk about anything that directly impacted my life, my very identity.

GW: When did that -- or has that all started changing where you and the trans 00:23:00community do feel actually involved and included in any of the movements or change that's happening, either in Asheville or the south itself.

AS: Um, it -- I think talk started shifting after marriage equality. And I don't think that caused -- I don't that's what caused necessarily the main civil rights organizations came back -- came back for trans people. In my opinion, it was actually because marriage equality was won that conservative or very fundamentalist Christian-viewing people realized they couldn't win marriage equality, so they found the next group to attack. So, the talk shifted to the 00:24:00trans community just because they'd lost the legal-- the right wing and Christian fundamentalists had lost the ability to attack lesbian and gay people, so more talk started shifting. And then, some organizations started talking about trans rights, and the conversation started coming up, again, around 2011, 2012, 2013. but it wasn't because there was a big shift of focus, like "we'll come back for you." There was oftentimes said, 'We'll come back for you,' but the trans community, I hear oftentimes said, 'Nobody came back for us.' But, our issues started coming up more then, but I agree it wasn't because more people come back for us.

GW: Right. Did you end up having any of those organizations -- that maybe they didn't come back, but at some point, or at all, they had any support for the 00:25:00trans community?

AS: Yeah, um. I -- 2013 is when I started getting involved in the community, and I had tried to -- kind of put my head down and just trying to live my life the best I could. And when -- around 2013 I just felt a real pull to do things, so I started looking for groups I could do things with. And I love, like I said again, being a native Southerner, I really like supporting local and southern things, so I went for groups that were either native Asheville and southern, and that's when I found the Campaign for Southern Equality, and I volunteered with them. I would help with transmission, I would volunteer with Blue Ridge Pride 00:26:00and I'd volunteer with -- show up for Phoenix, all these local groups for Asheville. And started doing -- started donating my time and working on projects and helping to advocate for our community around them. And then, I started -- I think there was a really big shift, starting in 2014, 2015 when HB2 came about, and, I think that was a big wake-up call for not only local organizations, but national ones too that trans people were not only just -- I don't wanna say 'just,' I'm like saying it's me -- we weren't just being made fun of or ridiculed as freaks, or, y'know, just as a subgroup within freaks sometimes, but 00:27:00were actively persecuted. When legislation was being enacted to restrict us in so many ways of just living in this world, that's when organizations went, oh wow, this is a huge need. And that's when I saw a huge shift -- especially campaign for southern equality -- started working on these issues that applied to trans people and trans people of color, and our community. There was a big focus, and just a fundamental philosophy shift in how they advocated. To advocate -- if we don't advocate for the most marginal groups, we can't advocate for the larger groups. And that's when -- and with that shift, I went from just 00:28:00donating some time and leading support groups or things like that, to really being involved in direct action and political movements, because for the first time, I felt like these movements were directly impacting my life, just because marriage was -- just, marriage was an extreme luxury. Y'know, just being able to work, have a job, and live and being able to function in society were being restricted, so when I started getting involved with groups, I was very intentionally only working with groups that made impact or worked for those issues. And, so, that's why in 2013, 2014 my advocacy efforts and my volunteer efforts shifted more into a priority for me. And I did that for quite a few 00:29:00years until I actually decided to leave my job in the profit world and I moved into full time into advocacy and went to work for the Campaign for Southern Equality last year, and because again this struggle affected my life and it was something I enjoyed doing and really for the first time in my life, I saw a group, especially a local group, that was putting so much effort -- whether it be financial resources, people, legal, lived equality -- all these things they were really making it a priority of theirs. And that was something for the first time I could feel like I could get behind and I wanted to devote all my time to.

GW: Did you see, especially working with these organizations, what were some of 00:30:00the biggest things, alongside marriage equality and you said HB2, you said specifically for the trans community, that you saw that really targeted things that changed from when you were younger?

AS: Well, you know, being trans -- that's the thing, being trans, it's been interesting to watch the shift. I think for a long time, trans people were -- it was ridiculed. Oftentimes, crossdressers were the way people thought of trans people because trans masculine people were, binary people were never talked about in terms erased, and everybody focused on the parody of a man in a dress, which, people made fun of. And that was on daytime talk shows, that was everything -- but trans people were existing, outside of this ridicule that was 00:31:00going on in mainstream media this whole time. And being trans was never -- was oftentimes, I think, people would go, they would kinda get it if you were binary trans? If you kinda fit a binary in -- especially if you were passable. People would kinda go -- y'know, there was this shift of thinking in general people, like, 'Well, it's kinda weird but I kinda get it.' And this is where -- definitely a southern thing, there's a southern attitude of "live and let live." It's kind of unique. We can have a lot of these deep seated moral beliefs that seem to counterject these cultural things of being in the South and saying, "live and let live" attitude. But then there was this huge shift in the late 00:32:002000s, 2010, 2011, especially then in '13 and stuff, it didn't go from a "live and let live attitude," it went from you shouldn't exist. For me, that was -- it was weird. I didn't understand the shift of that attitude in the whole country, and in the south too, but after thinking about it, that's when I come to my own personal belief that people were so focused on gay marriage, that when they realized that battle was, y'know, I'm not gonna say lost, we know it's still being contested, but when it was legally won, it was like -- it was almost like this unconscious effort to go like, 'Okay, whoa, where's the next thing we can put down?' So all of a sudden, our issues became a center point of focus. And 00:33:00for the negative. Instead of a live and let live attitude, but it was a market, it was a definite point in time that it --- the attitude shifted around trans people. Trans people have always faced persecution and everything, but we were getting mainstream media coverage, we were like actually being talked about in spaces. If you just said transgender someone in 2000, general population, no body knew who the hell that was. If you said, "Hey, somebody's changing their sex," and I don't agree with those terms but I'm just saying that's how people talk about it -- hey, somebody's changing their sex, they went, 'Oh, yeah, that's kinda weird, but I guess it happens.' It was that kind of attitude, versus in 2010, 2011, 2012, 13, 14, it became really this kind of -- oh, it's against GOD, it's against everything, it shouldn't be allowed, and, y'know, 'Those people are mentally ill,' and this big shift. I saw it in the south, I 00:34:00saw it here in Asheville, even. Y'know, we like to pat ourselves on the back about how progressive we are, but when you saw people showing up, and religious institutions, and all these places saying, 'Hey, trans kids shouldn't be allowed to be out in school, they shouldn't have support,' y'know, those things weren't talked about before. I mean, that wasn't going on when I was younger, people were just kinda like, 'Well, I guess it just happens,' and they didn't think much about it.

GW: So, kind of, shifting gears a little bit, did being part of the LGBTQ community bring you into contact with people of different class and race backgrounds? And then how did that end up affecting you either growing up or trying to find inclusivity in the movements themselves?

AS: Um, yeah, it did. I think being -- I'm not saying it's the same experience, 00:35:00but being poor in the south often times groups different, especially people in race, together, y'know, economics plays a part in that. And growing up poor and in poverty, often times, I mean, I grew up this way. We lived in a side of town that was historically mostly people of color, because economics would group you together, and the sections that were most affordable, if you were poor, the only place you could live. So I grew up, surrounded with more diversity, just in general, from straight people and everything, than I think -- well, then I know 00:36:00than we have now, actually is less racially diverse than we've ever been. In my history. So being grouped together, I grew up in a lot of diversity, going from elementary school on. And, also, the spaces were more diverse, like Scandals, like Malaprops, like club Hairspray, later. I remember, I remember there being more diversity, quite a bit more, racial -- race diversity, than when you walk into some of these spaces now, you see very few people of color, but back when I was younger, these spaces did have that diversity, which has been lost over the years. And again, the LGBTQ community was, I think, often times, probably, more integrated in the cause of economics and the cause of identities that we were 00:37:00forced together, but still, people of color, even in these spaces, they had to endure things that, being white, I didn't have to endure, obviously, but we did have more diversity, which is, I think, to me, a really big eye opening thing when I'm going through these spaces now, in 2019, and it's just very apparent to me how white all the queer spaces are anymore in Asheville.

GW: So, has that ended up playing a role in how you structure your movements now, too? With the campaign for southern equality, but also, because Asheville is a lot less diverse, it's more just like diverse white people now, has finding those voices to make sure they get heard in your movements been a challenge at all?

AS: Yeah, it's been very challenging. We at CSE, we work on trying to find 00:38:00people of color, whether they be trans or LGBQ, we try to find that, but it's more challenging now because of gentrification -- that we've seen especially in Asheville, as people have moved and left the area, and we work all across the South, the 13 southern states, with CSE, even though our home office is here in Asheville, so we do get to work with -- we seek out grassroots partners who are primarily people of color, entirely people of color organizations, but we 00:39:00actually structure, we create programs for people of color. Like we do right now, we're doing a new southern leaders fellowship that was one year entirely built on finding a trans person of color to fill. To get that opportunity to. So, we are not just talking about it, we are creating programs that only work to fill these opportunities. And also, in our microgrant process, with our rubric, we lay out that people of color and trans people of color especially, should be a major focus of where we're trying to send money to and send resources to, because it is such a marginalized community.

GW: Would you say it's more marginalized so in Asheville, or maybe not necessarily?

AS: I think it is, because of two reasons. One, I think a lot of people of color, I've heard them -- I hate to, I don't want to speak for some group, so I'm gonna say I've heard people of color, LGBTQ people of color, express to me that they feel left out, or unheard in white queer spaces, and I agree. I totally agree with that, that it's going on, so, in some ways, it's harder because if you feel left out, you feel unheard, you quit showing up in those spaces, and I think we're seeing that, we see that with only people within the African American community, but also the Latinx community, that they're expressing the same thing that they're unheard, unseen, their issues, while some 00:41:00more do have the different aspects that involve their race, so at CSE, that's why we're also not only working with the African American community, to serve those voices, but to also bring in language justice and make our programs bilingual and try to bring in this inclusion. But y'know, it's a healing, and it's a repairing, because, y'know, we're not perfect. I -- I mean, CSE, and I've always supported CSE, but I wouldn't have been as involved with CSE until I saw them actually start to talk about trans issues. I hear people of color saying the same thing: yeah, what any group is doing is great, but until you start not only talking about our issues, for our race, but also centering our voices, and that means hiring us, your organization should reflect our communities. And, 00:42:00y'know, that's true. As a trans person myself, I can totally see that and totally relate to people in the African American and Latinx communities saying, 'Yeah, we want to see people that look like us in the organization, then you're doing something.' So we're making that our priority, to diversify our organization, and I do think it makes a big difference.

GW: So, I guess, besides from -- we've talked about Asheville itself and how it's changed, and we're talking especially more about how we see the nation and world changing, but what you say is the most significant change to you, either in your own life, or in the trans community itself. Either change that's for the bad or for the better.

AS: Well, my opinion is my opinion. I'm not speaking for the trans community. I 00:43:00don't -- I wanna word this very carefully, because I try to look at any situation and not classify it as bad. I really try to look for the good in it. So I'll use HB2 as an example. At first, I was really mad. I was actually traveling at the time, and I wasn't in Asheville, and the news hit that this had been passed. I was so furious, I was so angry, and I sat there and my mind spiraled to this place of oh my gosh, y'know, am I gonna be thrown out of some space, like a restaurant or -- I mean, I was already going through so much stuff at my work and harassment at my work, with death threats and with, y'know, 00:44:00people -- groups of people trying to get organized to get me fired, just for being trans. And I was just like, this is just one more barrier or road block that represents this shift in culture. Like HB2 wasn't anything new, but it marked a road sign, y'know, there was a road marker there, that all of a sudden, this was going to start being a big deal. So at first, my reaction was like, oh my god, this is -- here's more negative. But, like I said -- I think there can be good that comes from anything, so when I sat down and thought about it, I was like, 'What's the good that can actually come from things like HB2?' And this transgender movement that we were starting to see being verbalized and shown publicly in media and talked about in spaces. To me, that was actually -- I could actually see the good in it because for the first time, we weren't a 00:45:00daytime talk show. Our rights were being talked about. Even if they were trying to be restrictive, they were being talked about. Nobody talked about -- y'know, people talked about trans people being in the bathroom, but it was in hushed tones, or in secret. But we're talking about in the news, talking about people's civil rights, my civil rights, for the first time ever, and along with that came employment rights. It became, just being able to exist in public. So, yes, it marked a time where there was more focus on the trans community. Even within the trans community, y'know, there was a lot of debate, like, why do groups -- especially trans advocacy groups -- have to push this bathroom thing. If we just be quiet, we were -- it wasn't easy, but we were at least existing and quiet. 00:46:00But I don't -- I've never felt that way, I've felt that if we didn't push for full inclusive rights, equal rights that everyone else had, that we would always be this marginalized group on the outside of this already marginalized group. So, to me, I viewed all these things as dangerous. Physically dangerous, oftentimes, and economically dangerous for people that had jobs and exist in public, but to me, it was also revolutionary that so many people were stepping up and saying, y'know, this isn't fair and I deserve to live, I deserve to work, I deserve to have the same thing everyone else has, so from me, I view the last eight, nine years, when trans issues have started being talked about for the first time as probably the greatest gift for our community that we've ever had. Because we've never had this kind of visibility. Even with negative visibility comes visibility, and we've never had visibility, we were always not talked 00:47:00about. So, to me, it was hopeful, and it was a time to see these groups going, y'know, small groups and large groups alike, going, oh my gosh, we have to do something for this community. And it was also a time of seeing the lesbian and gay community starting to go, yeah, we are a group, we need to be together. We can't go about separate issues, we have to uplift all of our issues together. So, again, this is my opinion. I know there's people who would strongly disagree with that and say that those are times those groups pushed us out. And there are some groups who pushed us out, but in my opinion, overall, more groups have come together to include trans people in the last eight years than has historically 00:48:00ever happened, and I think it's been the greatest blessing -- it's potentially the greatest blessing our community's ever seen.

GW: Well, I guess, now, it's -- a road stop, like you said, that you have to mark a place in history where it's, while previously we hadn't been recognized, now, we actually have a name in the media. We're being talked about.

AS: Right! Like, Stonewall -- a lot of people like to remind everyone that Stonewall was started by trans people, and especially trans women of color, and that's been forgotten over the years. And that's an important distinction. That Stonewall is often times in the LGBTQ community pointed at as a road marker for 00:49:00a shift in civil rights of the LGBTQ community. But, it was really a shift in civil rights for the gay and lesbian community, and erased trans people, trans people of color and gender, non binary people -- it has been erased and removed over time and forgotten. When the last eight or nine years, though, like with HB2 -- these kind of bathroom laws as they were coming about, this was a new road marker, and it wasn't just centered on sexuality, it was centered on nonbinary and trans people, for the first time entirely. And, to see the communities going, 'Yeah. Oh my gosh. These are our people, this is our tribe too, and we need to stand up for them,' to me, that's what I've seen. This was finally happening, even though Stonewall happened and was led by, y'know, 00:50:00largely by our community, it was erased and forgotten. And I mean we know it but y'know what I mean when I say erased and forgotten, and this time, we're not seeing that. We're not seeing that. We've seen so many people come out publicly, and people being urged to come out, and we're seeing media representation, and not just, y'know, trans people of color being sex workers and dying, but, y'know, playing mainstream parts in movies, in uplifting stories and not just the negative sides, but showing all these positive sides. That's never happened before. Ever. I can't imagine a more positive thing than finally being visible and showing all of our visibility, y'know, all our vulnerabilities and showing all of the issues we're facing. This is the first time that's ever happened. And 00:51:00I -- to me, it is a marker in history we can point to at some point and go, 'We were finally seen and heard, and not erased even by our own community as a whole.'

GW: So even if we have to contest our identity, we still now have one, according to the public.

AS: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

GW: [Pause]. I guess -- we've talked about the movements especially too, and different involvement in those things, especially creating them. But do you think there's anything that your generations have done for the LGBTQ communities of now that were either really significant in marking that change or for assisting those communities now, being someone from 30s, 40s, 50s, kind of time.

AS: You mean, the people from the 30s, 40s, and 50s? Because I'm --

GW: No, no, no -- you're, no --

AS: Or do you mean like my age group?

GW: Like your age group.

AS: Yeah, y'know, when I'm talking to people, I always remind people -- people mean well. They really do, and I believe that. That when people show up to support trans issues or LGBTQ issues, and if I'm a part of it or I see other trans people part of it, I often times see people say, 'You're so brave.' And, y'know, I like to remind people that we -- me, and people my age, are standing on the shoulders of people from the Stonewall generation, these trans people and nonbinary people from these generations who led these charges and started 00:53:00visibility, even if it was suppressed and erased overtime. They still did it. We're standing on their shoulders. I could've -- I could've never come out if it hadn't been for all the things people had done before me, and coming -- I think coming out even in my -- I came out, I actually started -- oh my gosh, what a life -- I started to medically transition when I was 20, and things happened, some family things, and I didn't feel safe and there was a lot of things going on that didn't do that, so I decided not to, and I did later on. I decided to start a medical transition when I was 39 and I think showing people that you can do this -- because for the longest time, I mean, for the longest time, it was 00:54:00part of what made me think I couldn't do this when I was younger, was seeing that most people did this after they retired. Like when they were financially secure in their life, or they'd had all this safety net they could fall back on. It seemed to be the norm, and I think when people of my age and surrounding my age have shown people that you don't have to wait your whole life to finally be authentic. That you can come out at these ages and make your life work, and live and exist. And, y'know, I always like to joke, when I came out the second time 00:55:00in my life, I came out and somebody asked me how it was gonna go at work, and I said, 'Don't know, but I'm gonna bring them along,' and I really meant that because I was so determined that I was gonna make this work no matter what. And I do think that is something of my age and my generation that maybe the younger generation -- and I've heard older generations say this, and I don't know, maybe a young generation will look back at people my age and go, 'Wow. These are some people that did this in a time of their life that didn't have that safety net of being financially secure and retiring and everything when you're older. They did it at an age where it was incredibly vulnerable, and have potentially forty, fifty years of life and work, career, and all these things left.' Y'know, telling people doing it without a net kind of mentality, I hope that the younger generation will look at that and go, 'I don't even have to wait until I'm thirty 00:56:00or thirty-five or fourty, I can do this at eighteen, I can do this at twelve, I can do this at six.' Y'know, whatever that is, and whatever's authentic, whether it's sexuality and gender or whatever, that they can look at our generation and see the bravery because I see a bravery in my generation that may not have existed -- don't get me wrong, there were younger people forever, but I really think my generation pushed that boundary to go, 'You know what? I get to work and be authentic. I get to come to all parts of my life and be authentic.' And the older generations mention that to me, they're like, 'I can't imagine doing this. I was terrified and that's why I waited until I was retired,' or, 'That's why I waited until my kids were grown,' and they talk to me and my friends my age and they say, 'I can't imagine doing what y'all did, because I thought about it, and there was no way I could do it, and y'all are doing this.' I've had some 00:57:00younger people come up to me during weekly workshops or weekly groups, and they said -- they would say the same thing, and they were like, 'It's so amazing, I see I don't have to wait. I can do this right now.' And I think, I hope, that is something my generation gets a little bit of credit for.

GW: That's so interesting to me because a lot of my trans friends and the other people I talk to, especially -- essentially, they're from my generation, but I think being able to come out, either sexuality wise or transitioning at such a young age, seems the norm almost right now? And that, it seems like a lot of the 00:58:00older trans community is forgotten, or we think that they don't exist because either you come out at a young age and then you live and suffer through it, or you just don't. And I think the -- something to also, to your generation's credit, is the ability to come out later? But I think what I'm seeing now, that's not really a change but that has been the norm for a while. That you come out later when you have that safety net and everything. So to be able to have friends who are -- even before twenty, like in their teens, being able to come out, is, I think, really to -- again, the credit of being able to stand on the shoulders of those before you.

AS: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, y'know, that was -- I think you're right. I 00:59:00always thought that way, that was the norm. You came out later in life, with a safety net, financial or whatever that was. You either came out really early and did your thing, there was no middle gap there, there was no middle at all, and I think my generation has changed that story. And I think that's an amazing gift too because it also breaks a norm of saying that you have to be one way your whole life. Understanding that people do grow and change over the years, because even if you do come out early, either with your sexuality or your gender, y'know, life's a journey, and somewhere along the way you may go, 'Well, y'know, I actually think I feel differently now.' And you don't have to go through this, y'know, this one path in life. Again, I think that's something my generation has shown is, 'Hey, you can change,' or, not change, but you can publicly be 01:00:00authentic at any point in your life! There's not only early and late, there's this whole middle ground here too that no one has ever really done until my generation in such a large, like, social movement. I mean, I have friends all across the country, and I travel around to conferences and I work with businesses and I work with healthcare institutions to help with gender inclusive policies and make sure their insurance is up-to-date and their office cultures or, uh, y'know, that people have a holistic experience in their health care. To make them understand there's not just early and late trans people, or nonbinary people, but that we're of all ages, all groups, and I do hear that over and over 01:01:00and over -- it's like, everyone thinks it's young or old. My generation is the first generation to ever do this in such a large group of people going, 'Nope. You can be anything your entire life, and you should be proud -- you can be proud of it and people should accept you, at any point in your life, no matter where you are in coming out.'

GW: Do you end up seeing that a lot of people in your generation are finding it easier to come out now? Either due to the changing social sphere, or because -- I'm not sure how to word this -- but we've talked about how there's -- there seems to be a dichotomy, like, you either come out when you're really young or now, when you're already young, or you wait until you're older and then you just come out when you're older. But now, you kind of exist in this middle ground of, you're kind of in those, like, 30s, 40s, 50s area. Is it easier to maybe come 01:02:00out now and be recognized at that age?

AS: Yeah, I mean -- this is one of those things, and I know what you mean. I don't want to generalize and speak for a culture, and I know you don't either, I get that. So I will say I hear a lot more people expressing that. I have heard, when I go to a trans conference, or in social groups, either online or in person, people in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, saying, oh my gosh, I can come out. And it is because of people like myself and other people who have come out, and 01:03:00we're getting recognition for coming out. We're publicly coming out -- we're not hiding it. We're not coming out and hiding. Because I remember -- when I started advocating, being a public advocate, people even in the trans community told me you can't be an advocate because you're too young. The only people who advocate in the trans community are older people in transition at that age and then have the safety net, and younger people can't do that. So I was finding all these norms that people my age were breaking, that not only were we coming out in different age groups, y'know, 30s, 40s, 50s, but that we were coming out publicly and not hiding it. Assuming people thought if you did come out early, like in your 20s, that you transition and then just kind of hid your life and tried to fit in and let no one know you were trans. Y'know, if you were passable, and fit in with these binary norms, but people in their 30s and 40s 01:04:00and 50s, we were coming out and going, you know what? I don't care if I have to be passable, I don't care if I have to fit into a norm, I don't have to do this young or old, I can do this at any age and you should just respect it because I'm a human being and I deserve that. And so then more people see that and go, 'Wow, I can do that.' And then more people see that and, 'I can do that.' And that's the story I keep hearing over and over of people coming out nonbinary and trans and -- I don't like the word transitioning but it's a very -- it's a word people know -- and people say, 'I know I can transition because I've seen other people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s do this and make it work.' So, yeah, we're getting that recognition, we're getting those stories -- those stories are now widely told and widely shared and widely celebrated for the first time ever, and it is giving people hope. Again, it's like what I say, when I say I stood stood 01:05:00on the backs of giants who, even being out and just walking in public was a radical act, y'know, people my age who are coming out and forcing employers and forcing the public to have a conversation about trans people, is making it easier for other people to come out. Who don't feel they can or say for very legitimate reasons for themselves, they're going, 'Maybe I can do this, because look at all these people doing this.' Because you know, that's always -- I think almost anyone, you hear stories in groups of people that seeing people like you gives you hope and courage to do things you may not have done, and I don't think we're any different, y'know, the more we talk about it, the more we celebrate all these stories and not the norms of young or old gives people hope and courage to do things they couldn't have done or wouldn't have done before.

GW: So, I guess talking about some of those others that we mentioned before in our interview that we had been been talking about wanting to collect the stories, especially of people in Asheville and of the elders who are here that are such pockets of history to be able to share. When we were going through our research of people to talk to, we saw Holly Boswell.

AS: Yeah, I was gonna say, Holly Boswell.

GW: And we wanted to ask our interviewees if you knew her, and if you had any stories you could -- you wanted to share.

AS: Yeah, I did know Holly. I didn't know Holly as well as I wanted to, but I did know Holly. I've, y'know -- been in a lot of spaces with Holly, y'know, trans spaces. I've y'know socialized with Holly, y'know, lunches and all kinds of things. Holly was a giant to me. In [muffled; 1:07:11] Carolina, and even in 01:07:00a lot of way across the United States. And -- [choking up] I'm sorry, it's hard because when this project -- when somebody told me y'all are doing this project, the first person I thought of was Holly. That I wish she could've taken part in this, because Holly is -- was about 28 years older than me or so, and the 01:08:00stories that Holly could've shared that are lost now? Is -- it's almost criminal, because Holly was a pioneer for so many ways. Holly paved the way and brought up conversations about trans people, about transitioning, about the problems with the binary society and these hard gender roles that we're forced to live in. Well, not forced, but people feel forced to live in. Holly broke the ground in so many ways, and she was always one of the bravest people I've ever met, I've ever met in my life. Because Holly was the first person -- I mean, I read stories about, y'know, a Rene Richards or somebody like that, but I'd never met someone of that generation before, and Holly was to me in a lot of 01:09:00ways a rockstar. And, y'know, one of the bravest I've ever met because I can't imagine the age that Holly was in the stories that she shared in coming out and the persecution that she faced in so many ways of, y'know, being -- people saying she was mentally ill and these really hardcore things. She was just amazing. And I think that my favorite thing was I was so lucky that I was involved in a story for the Asheville Citizen Times, and Holly and I were part of the story with Asheville Citizen Times and Holly was sharing part of her story about her gender journey, and one of my favorite things that Holly always 01:10:00said was that she lived half her life as male and half her life as female, and she was bored with gender. And I always thought of all the Holly stories, that one so eloquently and succinctly put the way Holly felt about all this after so much experience in living, coming out, watching our community grow and be talked about and everything else. That here's a person that challenged so many things and then at the end of it said, "Ah. I'm bored with it." I love that because it showed the humor that Holly had, it showed what really to me was her soul. That 01:11:00she had almost, like -- transcended gender, that she had gone through all this, y'know, like so many of us, and then said, y'know what? I'm just a human being. And to me that was really the point of it, it was -- y'know, gender's incredibly important and also not important at the same time, and I think the way she put that really showed that for all that we fuss and fight over, all the time, and the big deal we make about all this, at the end of the day, we're just people. We're not a gender, we're people. And I think Holly showed that. She was a lovely person. Oh my gosh, and, y'know, she was one of the founders of Phoenix, 01:12:00a support group. I mean, she just did so much, she organized conferences -- y'know the Southern SoCon [????????1:12:11], she was one of the founders of SoCon. Oh my gosh, I mean, Holly -- everytime you go to some [muffled; 1:12:18] -- look at the history of anything that's been here ten, fifteen years, you're gonna find Holly Boswell. I mean, she's amazing. She was involved in everything. And she was just such a pioneer, and such a great voice for not only her generation, but I think for nonbinary and trans people in general. I think Holly was a beautiful soul.

GW: Do you know anyone else that knew her really well, like we could maybe talk to?

AS: Um, maybe, I mean -- her partner, Jennifer Boswell, would probably be a 01:13:00great person. Also, Jessica -- y'know, Jessica, oh, what's her name.

GW: It's not Jessica Cash, is it?

AS: Ash? Jessica...

GW: We have a Jessica and we contacted them, and they have not contacted back, but it might be because they changed their contact information.

AS: They may have. I bet I can find it -- I've talked to them, I can't remember what last name they're using, [muffled; 1:13:31]... Let me see... It's Jessica, I will get a hold of Jessica and they may just not, y'know -- this community [?? 1:13:42]

GW: This community!

AS: Yeah, it's just -- a lot of people who are active are so busy, it's sometimes hard to, y'know, be in everything, and sometimes you just don't see that -- Jessica Ash!

GW: Okay.

AS: A-s-h. Or, wait, no, Jessica Britton -- see, this is where this gets confusing. Trans people, we like to mess everything up, we change names all the 01:14:00time. That's why everybody gets mad at us, we break the whole system. We don't just break gender we break names and everything, conventions. Jessica Britton, um, and I've got her phone number and email, and I don't like to share anyone's contact information unless they've given me permission, but I will reach out to her today and get permission. But Jessica knew Holly for a very, very long time. When I met Holly, and hung out with her, she was starting to go through some of her health issues, and was pulling back from a lot of her public things. So, y'know, I was just -- that last, youngest generation where Holly was, y'know, not as active as she was because of health reasons and everything else, but 01:15:00Jessica Britton is somebody who's known Holly for, I'd say, 30 years, and I'll reach out to Jessica and get them, see if they want to be a part of this and everything, and if you don't mind I'll share your contact information with them.

GW: Absolutely!

AS: Or, if they feel okay with me sharing their contact information with y'all, I'll do that, whichever way is most comfortable with them.

GW: That's awesome, [muffled; 1:15:21]

AS: So Jessica is -- Jessica would be a really good person, and I'd say Jennifer Barge [???? 1:15:28] was Holly's partner, and I think [muffled; 1:15:34] but Jessica Barge was Jessica's spouse, and in a way knows Jessica better than her spouse -- or, Holly better than her spouse. Three names, haha.

GW: So, we can go ahead and finish up for now, since I know you have to get going soon, I think.

AS: Yeah, sorry.

GW: No worries! We mentioned before, especially, when we had mentioned HB2 in 01:16:00terms of how you saw change for either -- essentially, for you, but also in terms of your community. How has being in the LGBTQ community provided you with a different world view than maybe other people who either wouldn't be in the community or due to your generation itself?

AS: Let me try to understand your question. So, how does being trans provide me with a different world view?

GW: Yeah, it could mean -- yeah.

AS: Well, that's a deep question, Grace. I think, for myself, it is -- it has 01:17:00shown me, intimately, that nuance is in gender and what I mean by that is in navigating the world in gender. I, y'know, being assigned male at birth, I was never, like, never got into hypermasculinity or anything -- I was tried to be pushed into sports but it just wasn't my thing and I found those spaces really toxic, that I couldn't -- I couldn't be in those spaces. And then just trying to live my life, and being seen in the world as masculine, um, and then coming out 01:18:00for the second time in my life and transitioning, it gave me not just an academic sense of being female in the world, but actually having to live those experiences? And -- y'know, I actually gave a workshop last night, for elementary age students and for their parents and the administration and I told people this -- we talked about gender identity and I said, y'know, [muffled; 1:18:35] as a spectrum. I don't, I don't believe that. To me, gender is a colorwheel. It's way more nuanced than just left or right, it's this big colorwheel, it's a big palette, and everything you do, every action you take, is 01:19:00not just left or right, it's this weird mosaic blend on this colorwheel, just like in photoshop and everything else, and that's why when I first came out, I was like, okay, I'm transgender, I'm a trans woman, and I still use that language, and at the same time I tell people it still doesn't feel like it fits me. And I feel more -- I don't feel nonbinary, I feel -- I don't know what I feel, but it's because I've gotten this nuanced view. I believe -- my belief is being trans and not binary is one of the greatest gifts people can have, because we get to walk this world, and people -- and interact with this world in seemingly different genders that people perceive us as or that we're expressing 01:20:00ourselves as and we go from this academic knowledge of what navigating this world is like as a gender[:????????????; 1:20:07] to this real knowledge is like as a gender, and that's a big difference, y'know? When women say, as a female I'm sexually harassed in so many ways and everything else, y'know, people who are assigned male at birth or cisgendered male with good hearts and souls can say, oh my gosh, I totally hear your stories and I'm hearing what you're saying, but there's a big difference between hearing it and living it. And I always knew -- I knew women were sexually harassed, I knew how this was, and to live life and gender expression in femininity, what we deem as feminine, has given me that lived knowledge of what that's like and it's given me a nuanced -- it's given me 01:21:00the knowledge of what it's like also to live as trans or a gender -- at times in my life, nonbinary and to experience that. Because if a cis woman says, yes, I experience sexual harassment or I experience being ignored, erased, talked over, interrupted, and cis males say, yeah, I know, I can't express myself, I feel like I can't express emotions, that I have to put on this act of masculinity, all these kind of things. Well, being trans has given me not only views of both of that, but also as a trans person, because we have entirely different experiences that are unique to us, that go back to that colorwheel gender. Our 01:22:00experiences are a blend of that colorwheel gender, too, y'know, just -- the first time, ironically, I was sexually harassed was by a cis woman. I had a cis woman walk up and grab my genitals, in a club, just -- y'know, and a lot of people, when I tell them that, it shocks them, they would -- the assumption is that it would've been a cis man. And I've been sexually harassed by cis males. But I think being trans, being nonbinary, we have this really nuanced view of the world, not only of the binary gender system, but of everything in between. This whole thing that is so different than anyone who may be cisgender doesn't know, and even if they do know, it's an academic knowledge, and our -- y'know, it's kinda like, what, Buddhism or something, it's an awakening of life and awakening of gender and an awakening of how the world operates, and I think 01:23:00that's something being transgender, being in this community is -- I think it's a gift, because nobody knows gender like we do. Nobody knows -- nobody knows the seriousness of it, from, y'know, how it affects your career, how it affects your life, how it affects how you're assaulted, not assaulted [?????????? 1:23:22]. Privileges it may grant you or deny you, and also, how ridiculous it all is at the same time, and how ill-equipped our language and system is at expressing it, defining it, and everything else. So, to me, it goes back to almost like Holly, I'm bored with gender. Because -- and I think being trans has given me that perspective, that nuanced view that it's so serious and so amazing, and also so ridiculous at the same time. It's just -- it's, I think it's a gift. It's an awakening to the whole thing.

GW: Alright, thank you very much Allison, I think we can stop there for now.

AS: Oh, I hope that was okay.

GW: Oh, it was absolutely okay!

--

AS: [this entire sentence escaped me; 1:24:13-1:24:18] I mean, roughly, right in there, and [muffled; 1:24:23] was a place where a lot of nonbinary and trans people were going, but especially trans masculine people. Club Hair Spray had drag king shows back in like '98, '99 --

GW: Really?

AS: --and that was unheard of, y'know? People in -- didn't even know what those were in most places, and here was a place the South that had that going on. So there were a lot of trans -- I remember, I mean I had friends who were transgender who identified as trans man, trans masculine at Club Hair Spray involved in drag king shows and putting these things on. And it was a place that a lot of trans nonbinary people starting gravitating toward after Scandals 01:25:00because, I mean, Scandals was great, but it was also primarily dominated by lesbian and gay culture, and Club Hair Spray opened up and it opened the door to a space mostly filled with nonbinary and trans people, and that was amazing -- that was absolutely incredible. To go into that space, and again, it was almost like when I went into Scandals and was eighteen, I remember the first time I went into Club Hair Spray, and going in there was like, oh, my gosh; the rabbit hole goes deeper. This is even better, y'know, this is even better, this is even more -- here are people who are further along in this journey and, yeah, it was neat. I really enjoyed -- and it wasn't like I enjoyed, it wasn't like I was big into club culture party, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it was more of here's a space that gender's pushed way more than any space I'd ever seen, even at Scandals. I'd never seen so many trans and nonbinary people represented in one space in my life life up until that point until Club Hair 01:26:00Spray. It was -- it was a big thing, and I remember when they shut down, and there were a lot of people who were sad in Asheville and the community because, trans and nonbinary people, I think in a lot of ways we were like, where do we go now. Because at that time, when Club Hair Spray shut down, I dunno, 2003, 2, 1, somewhere in there, Scandals, like a lot of queer clubs, was starting to become popular with, y'know, cis hetero people? Especially bachelorette parties? I don't know why that's a thing, but they were starting to become more and more trendy, to go to the queer clubs, and Scandals was starting to be taken over, so it just felt like it was this really big loss in Asheville when Club Hair Spray closed down, because that was a place that was really ours, and hadn't been invaded.