Oral History with Heidi Finemore and Clara Tracy

Kaylin:First off, I want to thank you for your time and your stories. My name is Kaylin Preslar and I'm a UNC Asheville student working with three other undergraduates and faculty mentor Doctor Amanda Wray to record oral histories from elders and representative members of the LGBTQIA plus community.

Our goal is to document alternative histories and foster intergenerational connections. Collected data will be used to develop a needs assessment and asset map for LGBTQIA plus people in Western North Carolina.

With your permission, all stories will be archived for special collections at UNC Asheville, I have an oral history release form for you to sign that gifts your oral history and other archives you may have to special collections with or without restrictions. Research participants can remain anonymous if they prefer a select pseudonym. The date of today is October 29th, 2019.

Okay. Now let's move on to some basic questions. Could you tell me your names, pronouns, and where you both were born and grew up?

Clara T:Hi, Clara Tracy. She/her pronouns, I was born in Silva, North Carolina and have lived basically my whole life in Asheville.

Heidi F:I'm Heidi Finimore, she/her, I grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I'm currently in Asheville, North Carolina for school.

Kaylin:Cool. So Heidi, what made you decide to come to Asheville for school?

Heidi F:When I toured Asheville, I immediately fell in love with the campus and just the area and the mountains. It's funny, I applied to one school and it was Asheville, because I knew from the first time I toured I wanted to go here and then I did go here, and it's really weird.

But yeah, I don't know, something about the culture definitely clicked with me. It's funny, my conservative family was talking for awhile. Some of the conservative subsets, they were talking about moving up here, and then I heard through the family grapevine that they ended up not because it was too weird, which I think is very funny and very fitting of Asheville.

It would have also been really weird, because they would've moved up here the year I started school. Mostly, I don't know, I really liked the area, I like the degree and yeah.

Kaylin:Would you say that the gay community here is very different from that of Raleigh's?

Heidi F:Yes. Yeah. It's hard to say because I feel like it's also... It's the 00:03:00area, but it's also the age I'm at, because I grew up in Raleigh and so it took, I didn't immediately from birth know I was gay. So I never really started seeking it out. And then when I realized, and I was, I found a couple of different little niche things, and I obviously gravitated towards people like me, but I don't know, I feel like up here it's a lot more general. It's good to talk about it because down in Raleigh, I always kind of felt like there was this attitude of like, "You could be out but like don't be garish about it."

I actually remember one year I was at a convention and they were selling these 00:04:00rainbow flags and I, it's shitty of me in, in hindsight, can I curse?

Kaylin:Yeah.

Heidi F:I think it was shitty of me in hindsight, but I was like "SJ, do you think I'd be one of the gays to drape myself in a rainbow flag? Be over the top? So I feel like there was this feeling of you shouldn't... You can be out, but modest about it, it doesn't need to be your whole thing. But up in Asheville I feel like it feels like, "Yeah, no, just do you," which I like a lot more so. But I definitely feel like it's a bit different in that regard.

Kaylin:And so Clara, you have mostly been around Asheville your whole life.

Clara T:Yeah.

Kaylin:What's kept you here and have you noticed any changes or any major differences from Silva to Asheville?

Clara T:So Silva, I was really just born there, genuinely I was born at the hospital there and came up here. But honestly, it's a nice city.

It's a nice city. I don't really have that much for another frame of reference because I've never actually lived anywhere but Asheville, I almost did when I was applying to colleges. But my first choice was Clemson, which would've been a very different experience in South Carolina, but I got declined there. So, I guess some things luck out in the end. Yeah.

Kaylin:Yeah. Okay. So how would you say... This question's for both of you, I guess, how would you say your experience here as an LGBTQ individual has been positive and negative-wise in Asheville?

Clara T:It's definitely more positive than anywhere else I've visited. I know that was a thing after I came out as trans. The first time I went up to 00:06:00Michigan, because that's where my entire extended family lives, which is a whole other story. It was funny, we went out to one of their favorite restaurants and their immediate immediate thing was like, "Oh, why is the food so bad?" And I'm like, "Hey guys. So there's a little thing about me being here," and I've never had that happen in Asheville really.

I mean it's overall, again, it's one kind of thing like going other places. It feels different. Asheville feels like a very open place in general. And yeah, I guess it's been positive overall. There's its own brand of shitty and stuff. It's not like it's perfect, but I don't have an amazing frame of reference. But what frame of reference I do have is that it's been pretty good.

Kaylin:Yeah. You mentioned it feels different in other places. How would you 00:07:00describe that feeling?

Clara T:Asheville is a city, I suppose a very friendly city overall. It's a very friendly environment generally.

And I've had, I guess, I got a lot more glares, et cetera, in other cities. Again, I don't want to make it sound like Asheville is, perfect, et cetera, because it's not, but it genuinely, it's one of those things you don't really realize it until you leave and you go somewhere else and you're like, "Oh, nobody smiles and everyone's just kind of a jerk. Why is this?" And then you come back and you're like, "Oh it's cause I'm used to this."

Heidi F:Yeah. That is something we've talked a lot about of Asheville's just 00:08:00really nice. We've joked about me not loving southern culture and you say "No, I love it because everyone's so nice to each other." And I've, I've argued a lot that I think that's just Asheville because people, you'll just be walking on the side of the street and someone will be like, "I love your hair, I love your vest." And it's weird because I'm not used to drive by compliments like that that are genuinely nice compliments and not cat calling. So it's something that took me on a hot second to get used to. People are just, they really, like you said, they're just really nice.

Kaylin:So how would you say your experiences have been, Heidi? Positive or negative here?Heidi F:I definitely think positive. I went to my first pride a month ago and that was, oh my God. I teared up multiple times while I was there. It was a really cool experience. It's kind of overwhelming to me, coming 00:09:00from.... I didn't come from a family that wasn't not accepting, but there was always an air of... I didn't out myself to my entire family immediately, and there are certain members that I'm just never going to be out to, and I know that.

So getting to be in an environment where it feels very much like there are strangers that would fight tooth and nail for you just to be you. It's a little, I don't know it, but it's a really good feeling. It makes me feel a sense of community that I never think I felt down in Raleigh, but I definitely feel is insanely strong here. The sense of pride that people in Asheville have.

Kaylin:Yeah.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Kaylin:So have there been any LGBTQ organizations that you guys have benefited from or not benefited from?

Clara T:TI would say the closest I've come is the trans health care clinic at WNC CHS. When I was initially transitioning, that was amazing because it was really great to be able to go somewhere and actually get hormones, et cetera, and get them efficiently and quickly and without a ton of questions asked. That was really good. That'd be my only one really. I don't really do organizations 00:11:00or anything like that.

Heidi F:I, for a while... So when I came out, I came out because I had a partner at the time, a girlfriend, who later came out as non-binary and then again even later came out as a binary trans male. But at the time when we were together, they helped me to realize who I was, and that I was gay, and they were a part of a group called Queer And See. I wouldn't say benefited was the right way to put my experience with them. It's funny, I feel like gay people, even before you know, gravitate towards them because a lot of my friends were gay and some of 00:12:00them hadn't come out, including a friend of mine who would later come out as trans. But he was telling me, his therapist told him that he might not want to do certain queer groups because the issue is, especially at queer groups for people our age, everyone dated each other. And so it was just a cesspool of drama and yeah, that's exactly what it was. I had an ex there.

I saw them at one meeting, had a panic attack and left and never went back. And yeah. That is basically what my experience was, which was a little disheartening because, at my school it wasn't the biggest school, but it wasn't small. But a lot of people weren't openly gay, not that it wasn't acceptable, but we pulled 00:13:00from a lot of different parts of even just in Raleigh you have these hyper-liberal areas and then you have these hyper-conservative areas sprinkled in. So you had people who straight up would end up homeless if they came out or worse. And then you had people who would be absolutely fine.

So I feel like you had a big range, but there wasn't a lot of opportunity to really meet other gay people my age or older or whatever. And there wasn't that much representation in media other than Ellen, so it wasn't the best, it was actually kind of a hard first experience, I feel, personally with meeting other gay people, because it wasn't the best, at least for me. But obviously I'm still 00:14:00going, and I've met a lot of people since that. I think that's the only main organization.

Kaylin:Yeah. How have you guys built a family or a support network for yourselves here?

Heidi F:Do you want to start?

Clara T:My family was actually really accepting when I came out, my immediate family. And so I still actually have those family ties, which is good. And there are a lot of horror stories about coming out, and genuinely, I was really brave in a lot of places, but things kind of turned out okay for me. So I managed to 00:15:00keep basically all my ties from before.

That said, since coming out, the people that especially coming to UNCA and doing school here, I definitely had some misfires, but genuinely, I guess there's not been a methodology or anything. It's just been a process. I've met people in classes, et cetera. I met Heidi in a class here and that was, genuinely, just how it went. I don't feel like there's really a story there in particular, I feel just like everyone else does.

Heidi F:Yeah, just kind of stumbled upon people and connected with them.

Clara T:Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi F:I feel like I have a kind of funny story relating to this. I came out my freshman year of high school, so I've been out for eight, seven years now, because I met someone and was like, "Oh shit, oh my God, they're beautiful." But "Oh no, they're a woman. Oh no." That's a very, very long of the short.

So I didn't have the best experience in high school, I wasn't explicitly picked on for being gay. But I feel like I never... I had some gay friends but not a lot, because there just weren't a lot of out people who I could interact with, 00:17:00and some I could, but drama. So I knew that coming to Asheville and in college in general, I wanted to try and embrace this identity more. I wanted to be, I was very much out, but I feel like I didn't get a chance to engage in culture surrounding the fact that I was gay. I felt like, I wanted to be able to talk to more people about my experience and have it be reciprocated. And so I knew I wanted to do more in college. And it's funny, when I was a freshman, the first week they held a club fair and while I walked by one of the queer groups on campus, somebody smiled at me through the crowd from across the quad. And I 00:18:00remember my friend Ashay who was with me, she laughed and was like, "They know," and I was like, "Shit, you're right."

And I regret never going up to the booth because I got anxiety. So I never ended up going to the club. But later I was talking to a friend, saying if I went to, I think it was Ashay again. I think I was like, "If I join this club, would you join with me?" Because it was like a QSA situation. So even though she's straight, she could join. And I was like, that would be less scary than just going alone, and she was like, "Hell yeah. When you want to go?" And long story short, it took me a hot second to realize she thought I meant a club, because we have a gay club in Asheville that's a clubbing club, not a school club. So that was a fun little miscommunication, and nothing really ever came of that.

So I think honestly though, I don't regret how it worked out, because like you were saying, I think you kind of gravitate towards people whether you know it or not. And I think especially through you, I've met a lot of people that have really put down a lot of roots in Asheville.

Clara T:Really?

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:Huh.

Heidi F:I mean you, your family, your buds.

Clara T:That's fair.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:Okay.

Heidi F:Yeah. I didn't really start going into the city until meeting you.

Clara T:Fair.

Heidi F:Although we don't go into the city that much.

Clara T:We genuinely don't.

Heidi F:We go around the city.

Clara T:We basically just go to Waffle House dates, Waffle House dates, let's be real.

Heidi F:I do love me some Waffle House.

Kaylin:And how would you guys describe the core aspects of your identity now?

Clara T:The core aspects of my identity?

Kaylin:Yeah.

Clara T:I would say... It's interesting, because I am bi, and I feel like... I guess that's not, most of the time, a notable... I don't know. I don't think about that really though. That's not a part of my identity that really- It's a thing, but it's just kind of background and much more relevant to me in my day to day is the fact that I'm trans. And I've a really weird relationship with that one, because genuinely, I wish I could forget, I wish that day to day I 00:21:00could just move on with the fact. But I can't, it's a day to day thing that I am confronted with from when I wake up and look in the mirror to being called, sir, when you think that you're having a great passing day anyway.

Heidi F:I remember pretty early in our relationship, it was a month into it, I made an offhand comment that sometimes I forget you're trans, and I turned around and you had started crying.

Clara T:Yeah, no-

Heidi F:I was very confused. And I felt very bad because I didn't realize the impact. I think I learned a lot about your experience.

Clara T:That's a really good way of putting it. That was definitely a moment, because genuinely, the fact that someone I know could just forget. That's kind of big. That's a notable thing, and that's one of the reasons I think that I 00:22:00initially gravitated towards you so hard, because you just treated me as a girl.

Heidi F:Yeah, I do. It was funny you did out yourself to me without me, and I really, really tried to play it cool.

Clara T:I kind of just have an assumption that everyone's clocked me. I don't pass that good.

Heidi F:Yeah, even though many people in your life are like, "No." I remember it was our first work date, because we... Can I tangent a little bit? So we met through a class, it was a character design class, and you were fucking really good at 3D modeling, and so I was like- Well, okay, we had a class before when we first first met, it was a much less good class.

Clara T:Yeah. But we were both too intimidated to talk to each other.

Heidi F:Yeah. Yeah. But no, I remember I came back from class. I was telling 00:23:00you, there's this cute girl in my class, I can't. So I definitely had like a notable crush, and by the second class came around, and we had to do project presentations. I remember I was like, "I'm going to ask for her number. I have a good excuse." She said during critique, this was really overambitious.

Clara T:I mean before that I remember you were on the other side of the room, and our teacher Ash was like, "All right, everyone get into groups, we're going to do a little critique." And you picked up your stuff and walked across the room to be in my group. I do remember that.

Heidi F:I was very subtle, and this has been something you've contested before. I was the one who got your number.

Clara T:No, you were. You were.

Heidi F:Yeah. Which I'm still very proud of, because I'm very scared of people, and from then, the first time we were in a work group, you threw out an offhand thing about... Fuck, I don't even know what it was. I think it was something 00:24:00about someone had clocked you, but it was you venting about something and I was like "Cool. Got it. Noted. Kay. Got to play it cool." And I did, question mark?

Clara T:I don't actually remember this moment, so you probably did.

Heidi F:Yeah, played it off. Yeah.

Clara T:Yeah. I remember when we are on that first work date. That was funny. We were getting coffee before it, and we were both like "Okay so we never actually talked about it. She's gay. Right? She's gay. Let's talk about Life Is Strange. You like Life Is Strange, right? Right? So you like the fact it's super gay, right?" That was a fun conversation.

Heidi F:That was a fun conversation.

Clara T:There was definitely an ulterior motive in that conversation.

Heidi F:Yeah. I was like, "Yes," when that happened, because I didn't know. For 00:25:00all I know you could've been a cis, straight girl, because I have barked up that tree before.

Clara T:Yeah, and I was pretty sure you were gay from the first time I saw you. I'm sorry.

Heidi F:Yeah. Hey, that's not a bad thing. I'll take it.

Clara T:And kind of radiate it.

Heidi F:Good.

Kaylin:How about your identity, Heidi?

Heidi F:Oh shit. Yeah. [inaudible 00:25:32]

Clara T:There was an original question there.

Heidi F:Right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Identity stuff, that has been a long theme with myself. I'm one of those people who's like, "I don't like labels. I don't know." But it's true.

I identify as queer, because I know I like girls, obviously. I think some guys 00:26:00are hot, but I honestly feel like a lot of times it's I just like what I like and I don't feel like there's a divide, which I know is fitting under the pansexual identity. And this is a shitty thing. But when I was in high school, I remember we were in a group of a lot of known out, gay people in a creative writing class. And we had split off into this little-er group, and we were just like talking and someone asked, "Oh, what are all of your identities?" Because we knew some of them were very obviously out and talking it.

And so we went around a circle and someone said pansexual, and a dude made a snide comic comments like "Oh, so the pretentious version of bisexual" and as shitty and as dumb as that offhand comment was, that stuck. And so I shy away 00:27:00from that as an identity, because some dude made a shitty comment, and now I'm like, "I don't want someone to think I'm pretentious," you know?

And I guess I could go by bisexual, but I feel like I'm going to be a hundred percent honest, that has so much stigma going on with it.

Clara T:It's a weird one. Yeah.

Heidi F:Yeah. I, it is a weird one. It's a hard one because I remember my brother told me one time who was super, he was the first person I came out to. So he's always been pretty supportive. But I remember one time, he was saying, "I don't think you're bi, because you talk about women so much more." And I was like, "Yeah, the issue was being a bi girl is if you don't talk about girls three times as much as you talk about guys, they think you're just in a phase." And I genuinely feel like that's true, because you can like both sides, but 00:28:00people I think want to push a very heteronormative view on it.

But I honestly like the identity of queer. I feel like it fits me, because if I was asked before I knew queer was an identity. I always just said I was gay, but I felt like that was dishonest because like I said, I like what I like, but then there's also the mindset for myself of, to be honest, if an individual gets to know me well enough, and I get to know them well enough to the fact that we would be dating, then they would know my situation anyway. So I don't worry about it too much. I don't think I'm very strong in my identity, but yeah.

Kaylin:Yeah. So how has your experience been as a non-heteronormative couple?

Heidi F:That's an interesting one.

Clara T:That's a really interesting one.

Heidi F:We're thinking the same thing, right? Of the start of our relationship and the turmoil of that? [Crosstalk 00:29:14]

Clara T:That was not where I was actually going.

Heidi F:Do you want to start?

Clara T:No, it's cool.

Heidi F:So that actually bumped into some stuff pretty hard. So this is my first real relationship. We just hit six months. I'm sorry to whoever has to fucking write this down. But no. So this has been my first real relationship, and I think it's taught me a lot, and I've learned a lot about just being with another person from this.

But when we started dating, I definitely was way more immature than I think I am currently.

Clara T:Same.

Heidi F:We had finally gotten together, and I had a super bad anxiety of I don't want to actually be in a relationship, I can't do this, some pretty generic commitment issues. And I remember we had a night where you tried to kiss me for the first time or you had offered it and I basically was like, "I need to go home," and I don't drive. So it was super awkward because you then had to drive me, and it was such a painful experience. It was important to get where we are now.

Clara T:It genuinely was.

Heidi F:But boy is it not a memory I like revisiting, and that was on me, because I definitely made it way more uncomfortable than it should've been, and I broke things off over text, but we had only been dating for four days. We had gone on one date.

Clara T:I don't think we'd been on a date at that point.

Heidi F:We had been on a date. If we count the date that I.PART 1 OF 4 ENDS

Clara T:We had been on a date at that point.

Heidi F:We had been on a date if we count the date that I thought was a date.

Clara T:I didn't think it was a date.

Heidi F:Right.

Clara T:We weren't officially together yet, anything like that.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:Anyway-

Heidi F:But we hadn't acknowledged that we would try and be a couple for very long, so I was like, "I'm going to do it over text." The next morning I woke up to a very long text of you basically saying, "I want to write down some thoughts because I feel like I need to talk about this with the person that it involves." And so I was like, "Go for it." Sent a long thing, that basically I ruined the thing that stood out was like you were saying you felt like we were both pushing ourselves into very heteronormative roles, and in that situation it put you in a more masculine role, and that triggered dysphoria a lot. I remember the main thing of why I was like, "Actually, I don't want to be in this relationship," was because I felt like you didn't act like you

Clara T:It was not a good start.

Heidi F:Yeah. It was a very rocky start. But I read the thing that you wrote that made me be like, "You're right. I want to genuinely try this. I want to try and make this work," was you had said, "I think it would work better if we went in with no assumptions. We just let our relationship form around what we want it to be, and not about what we think we want it to be." So I think that was a very direct version of that, of like-

Clara T:That's fair. Yeah, because those first few days definitely very much felt like we were both trying to model off of what we could get our hands on, which was mainly seeing other people's relationships, which are mainly straight couples. I mean, genuinely.

Heidi F:Or like super mushy, romantic movie couples, which I wasn't ready for, 00:33:00and I'm still not ready for.

Clara T:I don't want to say it's funny. I think you're way more mushy, romantic movie person now.

Heidi F:I know.

Clara T:I still don't see it, but yeah.

Heidi F:What was your immediate go-to?

Clara T:I was going to say, honestly, we crack a lot of jokes about the fact that we're a gay couple, but honestly, other than lesbian jokes, most of the time, I don't think about it until we go out and we interact with other people, and then it's like, "Oh, this is a thing."

Heidi F:Yeah. I totally agree.

Clara T:I don't genuinely think about it until then, and I think that's the notable thing for me as a non hetero couple just going out and doing stuff. It's like, oh, this is interesting because having been with men in the past, it's not 00:34:00been ... You're looked at in a very different way. The treatment I've gotten when I've been out in public with Heidi, even to my last [inaudible 00:00:34:22], before Heidi, who was male, I definitely see the difference in how we're perceived, which is honestly, I think, more notable than how I think about it.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:Because when I was hanging out with Heidi, yeah, we're just doing art or hanging out or whatever, just doing normal us things. It's not relevant.

Heidi F:Yeah, definitely. I feel like you kind of forget that this isn't okay 00:35:00everywhere. I feel like I feel like that in Asheville, because when we're going around in Asheville, I'm not going to hesitate if I want to put my arm around you or something, because why would I? It's Asheville, or even back home, Raleigh. Raleigh's not, again, super conservative. I mean, it's Raleigh. It is what it is.

Clara T:It's on the top 10 least gay cities in the United States.

Heidi F:Yeah. That's a whole separate story though. I remember a very prominent thing that sticks out of a moment where I remembered, "Oh fuck, this is not ..." I think as being a gay youth you hear a lot of stories of having to hide it and having to do it for your own safety. And growing up both in cities, fairly 00:36:00liberal cities, we've had the privilege of not having to feel that. But I remember one time we were driving back to Raleigh and we had to stop at a gas station, and I remember we had people looking at us. There were times where you'll be like, "Everyone's looking at us," And I'm like, "I don't think so." But yeah, the whole gas station, I felt like had their eyes on us.

A person came over, and we were both standing outside while she was pumping gas, and a dude comes up and he says, "Hey, are you trans?" And my blood turned ice cold. I was so scared in that moment. I remember just freezing, because I was on the other side of the car fucking around or something, because me, and I was hearing that and I froze and my mind is like, "Am I about to have to pull her into the car to get out of here? Am I about to have to fight someone or call the 00:37:00cops." I didn't know what I was going to do, to be honest. I could be very heroic and say like, "Yeah, I would have fucking punched him." But look, I'm stronger than I look, but that's relative, I'm still not going to fight a dude. And it turns out he was a trans man who had clocked her.

Clara T:Which is so not how you approach that other trans person.

Heidi F:Yeah. And I think he was inviting us two or three-way.

Clara T:He was.

Heidi F:Yeah. So that was a whole situation, but I was very relieved because that was very scary. That genuinely was probably up there with one of the scariest interactions I've ever seen. And now every time we go out to pump gas, I mean, I'm out there with you because I don't like those places.

Clara T:I genuinely thought that I was going to get beat up there.

Heidi F:Yeah. I was scared. And so it's those moments that I went ... We were 00:38:00talking about this afterwards, of just, yeah, there is a privilege there that you can acknowledge the privilege all you want, but it isn't until you feel it that you're like, there's this very personal side of it of being afraid, being afraid to exist.

Clara T:I will say, genuinely, I feel that less about us being together. I feel less-

Heidi F:And more about the trans thing?

Clara T:I feel a lot more about the trans thing in general.

Heidi F:Right, that's entirely fair.

Clara T:I feel like maybe I am sometimes a little blas faire about the fact that we're a lesbian couple, because I'm pretty sure there have been a couple times where I'm like, "Oh, I'm pretty sure this is what's gotten us in X, Y, Z almost situations." We've had a lot of almost situations honestly.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:I think I might be honestly a little blas faire about that, because I'm like, "Oh, well if something's going to get me, it's going to be trans."

Heidi F:Yeah, absolutely. And that's-

Clara T:I feel like it almost sometimes blinds me.

Heidi F:Yeah, entirely. That's a very good thing to point out. I think I've learned a lot about just being trans through dating you, because I've seen a lot of the impact of it. I mean, one of the hardest that ... I don't know how to put this without making it sound like I'm claiming your ...Clara T:You want to talk state fair? Was that where you were going?

Heidi F:Yeah, that's exactly where I was going.

Clara T:We were going to the state fair, and it was I think the first time that you actually got to see someone directly harass me. That was not great.

Heidi F:Yeah. And I remember, it was really hard because I had told you leading up to it, I was like, "It's not going to be a big deal," because the state fair up in Raleigh, genuinely, queer kids fucking love the state fair. I don't know why, because I talked to ... What's his name? And he was like, "Hell yeah, we love the state fair." He was like, "Yeah, it's a big thing." I don't know why Raleigh State Fair is really chill with gay people, but I've genuinely ... I remember I used to be like, "I want to bring my girlfriend." Because I feel like I've seen tons of gay couples at the state fair, where like a group of queer youth running around with short dyed hair, and it's always very endearing. I didn't think it would be a thing, and then-

Clara T:Asheville State Fair is definitely a very different vibe than what you're describing.

Heidi F:Yeah. And I remember being like, I put you in a situation because I was 00:41:00being dismissive.

Clara T:I don't actually remember what the question initially was.

Heidi F:Yeah, it was some fucking-

Kaylin:That's okay. What happened at the fair? Do you feel comfortable talking about that?

Clara T:Honestly, it was just some kid who came up and just started saying stuff. And genuinely, I think he was, I'm guessing probably 13.

Heidi F:13, 14.

Clara T:I'm guessing he was just there with his friends, and someone in the group clocked me and they're like, "Oh, there are the girls." And then probably someone dared him, honestly. It was a brief interaction. It's not actually the worst I've heard.

Heidi F:It was just-

Clara T:It was just ... I'm trying to remember exactly what he said. It was 00:42:00really brief.

Heidi F:He asked you-

Clara T:Oh, he was just very hostily like, "So are you a boy or a girl? It'll be bothering me all day," blah, blah, blah. I remember-

Heidi F:Like, "I have to ask."

Clara T:Yeah. He was playing it off, like he squared up his shoulders and was like ... Again, it was honestly a minor thing, but it was just notable because it kind of exemplified the attitude there, and a lot of the looks, et cetera. That was the only time anyone actually said anything though, which was honestly better than I expected.

Heidi F:Yeah. But that was an important ...Clara T:It's definitely a thing that you can lose track of. It was definitely a thing that pre coming out, I knew it was going to be a thing, but even just the little interactions, it's weird. You 00:43:00don't really register how it's going to affect you until you're out and actually have it happen, and then you're like, "Oh, this is this."

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:Yeah.

Heidi F:I ran afterwards, I was like, "We should leave. We should go." And you were like, "Let's go get a funnel cake and sit down." And we did, and had a funnel cake and enjoyed our rest of the time.

Clara T:Yeah, and then I got to see you get kicked off a mechanical bull.

Heidi F:Yeah, that was fun.

Clara T:Yeah.

Heidi F:It was definitely something that I won't forget, because-

Clara T:Again, it really was just some kid who probably got their [inaudible 00:12:52].

Heidi F:Yeah. I think that's fair for me in this situation it was, I put you in a situation because I didn't listen to you, because I didn't have a point of 00:44:00reference and that was on me. And you better bet I was not the happiest during that state fair, and you weren't either.

Clara T:My girlfriend bought me a funnel cake after that, it was pretty good.

Heidi F:I also won you an alpaca.

Clara T:You did win me an alpaca, Alfonzo has a place of honor.

Kaylin:Do you have experiences like that often, Clara?

Clara T:Genuinely, only occasionally do people directly say something. I get very obviously, deliberately misgendered a lot, and you can tell when someone accidentally misgenders me, et cetera. When someone misgenders you, there we go. 00:45:00There's definitely a couple of different varieties, because there's the people who need pre-transition, which honestly is the part that hurts the least because you're like, "Okay, force of habit, I know ..." Even years later, it's like, "Oh, you knew me for longer pre," at least in my case, because I did not come out as early as I wish I did. That's one thing, and then there's the accidental, which hurts a lot. And actually, it's probably, honestly, the one that bothers me the most is when people just genuinely ... You can tell, they genuinely just see me and they're like, "Boy."

And that hurts the most because again, I don't think it should be every trans person's obligation to try to pass it. How I deal with my dysphoria is really putting a lot into trying to pass, and that's a personal way of going through it. But it genuinely sucks when you have that direct push of like, "Oh, I read 00:46:00to you as boy." Okay, I don't know what to do here. Then it's actually, I think almost less hurtful. It affects me less, actually. I mean, it sucks, but it affects me less when someone very obviously is deliberately misgendering me in order to evoke a reaction. And you can tell because they have that intent. A lot of times they get that little smile.

Heidi F:Yeah. That fucker at the fair certainly did.

Clara T:Yeah. You can tell generally. And yeah, it sucks in the moment and it gives me like, "Okay, am I safe here? Is there any other threat?" Which it's usually not. I think that's more just, I guess, being safe and habit, not 00:47:00anything else, because I've never actively been assaulted. Genuinely, I have a privilege as a white trans woman and not a trans woman of color there, because there are a couple situations that I've been like, "Okay, genuinely, if I'd had more cards stacked against me ..." But I have that happen fairly regularly. That's a couple of times a week. No, that's probably, I want to say at this point, probably once a week-ish or a little less. It used to be a lot. When I initially started transitioning it was a lot more, but the sort of force of habit there ...I'm rambling. I would say for the most ... It was how often, 00:48:00right? That was your ... Genuinely, I can only think of a handful of times someone has directly come up and said something like that, that has been a direct call out. I can think of a lot of times someone's been like, blah, blah blah, "Can I get that for you, sir?" Long deliberate pause, or made offhand comments around me that they definitely were making sure I could hear or et cetera, but directly having someone come up and be like, "Hey, you," I do think that's probably a show of generally where I live. Asheville is a very liberal town and genuinely, where we're at culturally, but most people, even if they have that bias, don't feel necessarily comfortable doing more than a passing act 00:49:00that they can claim a lack of intent behind.

Because actually going out of your way, that suddenly paints, I guess, a reverse target on you. I'm trying to get into headspace there and I guess psychoanalyze, but I don't really think I have anything else to say here. I'm just rambling.

Kaylin:That was great. Yeah. Thank you. So how do you usually deal with those kinds of people? Do you just ignore them or do you have a process?

Clara T:Generally, I get a little flustered. I say something generally. I generally try to ignore it and get flustered, et cetera, and then spend the next 30 minutes being like, "Oh, but they said this thing, the perfect comeback would have been ..." I've mainly just [inaudible 00:50:12]. I wish I said like, "Yeah, 00:50:00I called them out on it at the moment," but I genuinely don't. I never have. I hope I will one day.

Heidi F:Yeah. It's hard, I think. For the fair situation, you think you're going to react one way in a situation, but it's so quick, and that's the thing. He came up, he said that, he ruined our date and then he left.

Clara T:It didn't ruin our date.

Heidi F:It made it objectively a worse memory.

Clara T:It did make it objectively a worse memory.

Heidi F:It's like four or five seconds, at most, interaction, and it's like, how 00:51:00do you react in a car crash?

Clara T:Yeah. I'm just glad that I haven't had much worse. I've gotten off very lightly in terms of all the trans women I've talked to.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Kaylin:We've talked a lot about coming out and stuff, are there any coming out stories you guys want to share?

Heidi F:I have a personal favorite. I have ...Clara T:Yeah, go on. I think you have more interesting ones than me.

Heidi F:Yeah. I have a very liberal family, I guess, in terms of people. So the first person I came out to was my brother, my brother Sam. At the time, home life stuff was just a little rough, but not because I was gay or anything. My brother was moving off to college and that kind of put stress on my parents. 00:52:00It's a tense situation. It got resolved, and it made me and my brother extremely close. I don't regret it in hindsight. I think it was just how it ended up shaking out. But anyway, so I came out to my brother I remember in like a Harris Teeter parking lot ... No, it was Whole Foods.

Clara T:That sounds about right.

Heidi F:Yeah, two minutes away, and he was like, "Yeah, okay." And that was it. I thought we were going to talk more about it and then we just didn't. And later he told me it's because he thought I wasn't actually gay because I was a freshman in high school and maybe it was a phase, but he didn't tell me that, so that's chill. But it wasn't a bad experience, he was like, "Yeah, okay. Sure honey." And I was like, "Okay, cool. Good talk bro." And then the second person 00:53:00I came out to was my other brother, and I put him in quotes. My house I grew up in has an apartment on property but it's like a separate building. It's above a garage. And basically, since third or fourth grade there's been a family living there, single mom and her son Isaiah. So I grew up with my brother and then my other brother, Isaiah.

I remember when I came out to him, he was actually a lot more helpful and had a lot more gay friends and was like, "Well, I can talk to them and get some other people so you can talk to someone." So that was really awesome of him. I didn't end up talking to people, because I was scared. He had a lot more to say because I remember when I first came out I thought I was bi. Throughout the first or 00:54:00second semester of my freshman year in high school, it was a slow coming out to a bunch of different people, most of which who I didn't think would be a big deal and weren't. I don't have too many fun stories, because a lot of it was like, "Yeah, okay." Which I think is honestly the best reaction. They don't make the most fun stories, but it is probably the nicest reaction of like, "Yeah, okay, that's normal. Sure."

The big one was coming out to my family. So my parents, I wasn't worried when I came out, which I'm extremely thankful for my family. I remember, it's kind of funny, my mom and dad, I think they were born late '60s, and they both grew up in South Carolina, so they have really every excuse to be bigots, and they 00:55:00weren't. I remember talking to my dad about it, asking him what ... I remember being really young and asking during a hurricane, I forget which one, but it was a big hurricane, a category three or four that might've hit our town, and my dad had thrown out that we might go stay with our families, like gay friends. And I was like, "Oh, we can go stay with the family with two moms. I really like them. They have good toys." I asked them about it and he was like, "Oh yeah, back when we met them and back when we were starting to be very ..." That you couldn't just be friends with a gay couple and not have that be a political statement."

If you were going to be out with an open gay couple, you were aligning yourself with that movement, and they were like, "Yeah, we were 100% down to, but it was 00:56:00a weird time. It was a different time." Than being able to be like, "Yeah, I support gays, just not my kids." I feel like it was a lot more like you either do or you don't, and they did. I remember my mom asked them, "What would be a good thing to help my kids if they were gay? How could I help them?" And they both told her, "Just let them know that that's a thing, that that's an option, and that you'd still love them if they came out." So I remember all through growing up, which I didn't realize until around the time I came out, this wasn't a normal thing, and I'm very thankful they did this.

All growing up my mom would ask me, "So do you like girls or boys? You can say either, I'll still love you regardless." I'd always be like, "Oh mom, I like boys." And I didn't really get it. I just thought it was normal. It was a very 00:57:00good thing to just normalize gay people, because I remember like, my mom swears this isn't true, but I have vivid memories of my mom giving me the sex talk and then ... So I got a gay sex talk. She denies this. It's so true, because she sat me down and was like, "So you know how like ..." Because I had just gotten a sex talk and she was like, "You know how a boy and a girl can love each other?" And I was like, "Yes." And she was like, "Well, two boys or two girls can do that too." I was like in third grade. I remember going, "But mom," and I pointed up both of my fingers and poked them together to imply, "No, you can't. That's not how that works. I know sex. I'm woke."

Her being like, "Well, no, they can." And me pestering at her, like, "But mom, 00:58:00how does it work? Can they have sex?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "But how?" She was like, "Heidi, not important." And I was like, "But how? They can't have sex, that's not true." And eventually after a while of pestering she finally went, "Heidi, they do it in the butt." And I was like, "Whoa, that's so gross," because I was a child. And then I remember vividly asking my mom, "So how do girls do it?" And she was like, "I don't know." That wasn't cool. So anyway, that's a tangent, but I always think that's a funny story. So growing up, I had my mom letting me know there's an option there.

But I think partially because of that, I kind of just identified as something actively that I wasn't, which I really should have realized I was gay way before 00:59:00I came out. I think there were a lot of signs that in hindsight, were a lot more obvious now. But at the time, I was like, "Huh, whatever." Because you're a kid and you don't know how things work.

Clara T:Can I tangent off that?

Heidi F:Yeah, of course.

Clara T:Genuinely, I do think it's notable for our time, et cetera, that we are a lesbian couple, and I am trans. We have talked about like, "Okay, how are we giving holidays? Whose house for what part of breaks?" Like, "Who's family?"

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:And I think that's a notable thing, and that's definitely notable for our time, because genuinely when I talk to older queer couples, that's not a thing. Honestly, my coming out stories aren't that interesting, because genuinely, my family was incredibly supportive. Extended family, less so. They still think I'm going through a phase basically, but they're not openly hostile, 01:00:00which is notable. Genuinely though, the thing that made me step over though is ... I think the weird side of this is I didn't come out until way later than I would have reasonably if I'd had any kind of, I guess, pressure to perform in my gender role. I remember my 15th birthday party was a '70s drag party. I'm a big nerd, and I consistently always played and got super into all of my female characters and a lot of tabletop RPGs.

I would dress up in drag very frequently. There were a lot of science there. I guess, when I did public things, when I was engaged with my peers et cetera, I 01:01:00did get bullied a lot for being hyper feminine. I think that's funny. In my peer class, I was the second most bullied person, second to the bottom of the totem pole. And the other person was the other not yet out trans girl. But genuinely, there wasn't an expectation for me to come out. My parents were hyper supportive of me just as me, and it was, I guess, relevant for me to come out as bi earlier, because like, "Yes, I like people. This is relevant for my actual decision making here." But coming out as trans, there wasn't a lot of pressure until I really started ... Because I was homeschooled. When you say 01:02:00homeschooled, you-

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS

Clara T:... homeschooled, I wasn't. When you say homeschooled, you often think of religious homeschooling and keeping children in closets. What? But I was, "the other kind of homeschooling." So I actually did have a lot of peer groups, et cetera. I had a ton of activities and peer groups, and there was actually a really big homeschool community here in Asheville, but that still didn't necessarily put a pressure on me to socialize. Once I started my associates degree at a community college, that's actually when I started feeling pressure to come out, because that's when I first really got exposed to the, "Oh, people aren't just understanding of the fact that I think it's awesome to wear a dress." Then that made me think, "Okay, so if this isn't, what is gender? How does this work?" Then I'm like, "Oh, this is probably why I hate myself all the 01:03:00time," and that kind of, I guess got things kick started there. It was genuinely good for me, but I think it's notable that both of us had very supportive families, and I know I came out very late, and you've said that you probably came out, you said way later than you thought was-

Heidi F:Later than I had signs for you. You know?

Clara T:Exactly.

Heidi F:My first dream that involved anything sexual was with my female best friend growing up, and I feel like that should have teed me off the third time that happened, but just didn't because, I don't know. You overlook it. It's like hiding in plain sight.

Clara T:And genuinely, when it's just okay to be there hiding in plain sight, you don't feel a pressure to examine it. Like, when it doesn't, when it's not poised as taboo, then you're just like, "Oh, well that's weird."

Heidi F:Yeah. I mean, in my situation I would take having a supportive family 01:04:00over figuring it that way.

Clara T:Oh, 110%.

Heidi F:Well, it might be different in your case though, because I know you've talked about wishing you figured it out earlier.

Clara T:Oh, if I could have dodged the effects of late puberty.

Heidi F:Yeah. I remember, I was given this topic. So we've talked about it before, the thing that I think you've said that has always stood out to me the most was when you said, "Yeah, it was a real moment of discovery when I found out not every guy wishes that he could just be a girl." You know? And I think that's really telling them your situation.

Clara T:It genuinely was. It genuinely was, because a lot of time I was, I genuinely thought that just like, "Yeah, come on, girls have a good." Like, "I want to be a girl. Everyone wants to be a girl. Girls are just better." Apparently, that's not a universally accepted point. Apparently, that's a little 01:05:00bit weird. I don't know.

Kaylin:So, was your homeschooling community supportive?

Clara T:I kind of stopped mostly doing that by the time I came out, because I came out, I actually came out after I'd finished my associates degree, but before actually going and coming to UNC, I had a a gap period where I did freelance art and contracting on mobile apps and games and stuff like that, doing visual assets, and I came out during that period of time, fairly early into it. It's funny, I got out of school at my community college, Bergen Community College. Our main exports where policemen and firefighters, notable reasons why I didn't think coming out there was the best idea. But yeah, after 01:06:00that was when I really, was when I came out, so I was done with the homeschool group by then.

The other girl who I know was trans and who came out earlier, I think she kept doing stuff. I genuinely don't really know how they would've treated trans people, like, out trans people. I can't honestly remember anyone who was gay. Of the teenage couples, I can't remember any gay couples, and I also, I don't remember any trans people. I definitely don't, nobody was non-binary that I had met at least, and the two trans, me and the other closeted trans girl were the bottom of the social totem pole. So I don't, honestly, we may have had a better social totem pole position if we'd been out, because then it wouldn't have been, 01:07:00"Hey, look at those hyper feminine men." It would have been, you know. Then again, I don't know. Kids are mean.

Heidi F:Yeah, hard to say.

Clara T:Kids are mean now.

Kaylin:So what have you struggled with the most coming out into terms with your identity?

Clara T:Yeah, I really don't, that's a hard one. Do you have an answer?

Heidi F:I, "hardest thing since coming out?" It's been a while, honestly, since I had to deal with the repercussions of coming out, because if any younger gay person than us hears this, it becomes like you're normal pretty quickly. At least it did for me. I remember when I first came out, there was a good year 01:08:00where I think some people in my life were low key and not keeping it low key enough for me to not notice. The hardest one was my mom, because she grew up in a very Conservative household. She grew up an army brat, so she, it was either I listen to whatever head of family says or, there wasn't an, "or," really, you just did.

So when I came out it, I think it was hard because even though she had very much sought out and dedicated herself to making sure that I would always feel like I was loved no matter how I turned out, I think she, you know. I remember she told me a good couple of weeks after I came out, well, I asked her, "You seem like 01:09:00you're not okay with this," and she was like, "No, no, it's not that I'm not okay. I love you and I support you no matter what, and I'm glad that you told me, but it's an adjustment, because you kind of imagine how your kids life will go or how you'd like it to go for them, and this changed that," and, you know. I think there was a good moment where she was really holding onto the bi thing as in like, "Yeah, but maybe she'll end up with a guy," and I think by this point she's definitely come to terms with, "Yeah, I don't care, whatever," which is really awesome, and I think it's something that becomes normal.

I remember seeing this thing, it might've been on Buzzfeed, but it was like, "The first time you come out versus the hundredth," and the first time you come out it's really nerve wracking and you're like, "Oh, God. Okay." You know, "I'm going to do this," and you've thought a lot about it, and you've planned it, and 01:10:00now it's like, it's an offhand thing you thought of like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gay. It's whatever," you know? So, I don't know.

When I first came out there was support, but trying to figure out how to support. I consider my parents' side. I'm very lucky that I didn't have any people in my life, I think, exit because of it. Genuinely, I don't think I had any, which I'm very thankful for. I don't know. I think, yeah, I don't think I have much. What about you?

Clara T:So, so I'd say the hardest thing at this point, my biggest struggle is honestly with my own dysphoria, and with really, with dealing with that, and my 01:11:00biggest parts of my identity that I struggle with in coming out, et cetera, and with that I struggle with are when in order to, when embracing my identity as a trans woman, spikes dysphoria, because this genuinely, there's a point where I do wish I was this a lot. Like, I try to pass. I try to, you know, because that's my brand of coping.

But, and a lot of times, embracing that identity, there's that point in class when you're talking about gender, et cetera, and everyone's going around, and you have that thing to say and everything. People are getting it so wrong and they're so off topic, and you're like, "I want to say something, but do I out 01:12:00myself?" I think that moment of, "But do I out myself?" Is it worth it in case someone hasn't? Is it worth A, if someone hasn't clocked me, outing myself, and B, is that worth the actually facing up to my dysphoria and the fact that I'm trans, and I'm about to go on an exposition about being trans and about the experience, in class, to a bunch of, basically strangers?

I think that is definitely my recurrent part's moment at this point. It's not actually the doing it, it's the debating and agonizing over whether it's worth it to do it.

Heidi F:Yeah,

Clara T:Yeah.

Heidi F:Yeah. It's a very different experience.

Kaylin:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So what was each of your first visit to a 01:13:00gay related place or event like?

Heidi F:God, what was that?

Clara T:Yeah, I'm-

Heidi F:Oh, I've been hanging out with gay people since like middle school. Do I know?

Clara T:So in terms of like a-

Kaylin:Maybe since you knew that you were gay?

Heidi F:Okay. Okay, that's easier.

Kaylin:Or since you guys have been out?

Heidi F:I mean, I have one if you need to marinate.

Clara T:No, go on, yeah.

Heidi F:So, the Queer NC group I was a part of for a brief period, and I remember there was an event that was like a dance that they were having, it was like gay prom, even though we were freshmen and we wouldn't have been allowed to 01:14:00go to prom, and also, I don't think we would've had issues going to prom. I definitely went to prom with like ... No, wait, I went to prom both years with dudes. Nevermind. Well, regardless, gay prom, it was very fun, and I got to go with the person I was at, person that I was with at the time, and it, okay, it was very weird specifically because. So I was not a very well liked person in middle school.

Clara T:Because kids are the worst.

Heidi F:Because kids are the worst, yeah. I dealt with a lot of bullying, never for being gay. I got called gay, and called stuff gay, and never really realized until hindsight, because kids are shitty, that it was not just a word, and I 01:15:00never had any, I mean, I was friends with a lot of gay people in middle school. I just identified as straight. So I remember when we showed up to the place, there were some people from middle school who I had known but not been friends with. I actually had explicit reason to think they weren't, they didn't like me that much, and in hindsight I think it speaks, I kind of maybe said some stuff that at the time I just didn't know any better about something, being weird about their sexuality, which I'd be a lot more repentant for it, but I was like 10 and just didn't get it. So I was kind of ignorant on that front, not outwardly homophobic, just not knowing what not to say.

I remember I saw somebody who I knew had been out as gender non-binary and gay, and I remember seeing them and being like, "Shit," and it was this weird moment for me of I, like I said, I had, because I think a big part in that, my parents had asked me growing up, I put an identity into being straight. I did actively consider myself straight at that time in my life, and if I hadn't been beaten over the head with the fact that I wasn't I might still be, because I didn't know. I just, I kind of went with it, but once I went with it, I stuck with it, with the fact that that was my identity.

So, I remember I had a lot of moments where I, because I did, I think I had more 01:17:00friends, gay friends while in middle school than I ever did in high school, because I think there were just a lot more gay kids at that middle school. But I remember, it was very strange, because I think in part of probably why I wasn't super well liked by them by the time that I graduated middle school was because I kind of acted like a straight person who didn't know better than to, you know, like the straight girls who are like, "Oh my God, I want to gay best friend." It was that level of shit, you know? Whereas, you're not super treating them like people, which is shitty, but it's not like, you know. It's its own brand of shitty.

So I'm sure that seeing, I felt like seeing me at the gay event was probably really jarring. I remember I went up to them and said, "Hey, it's weird seeing you here, and they were like, "Yeah, yeah, we are likewise," and then we avoided 01:18:00each other the entire rest of the night, and that was weird, and it was weird, and I've never seen them again or anyone else from middle school, and I don't know. Sometimes I wonder, you know? Because, when I look at it from their perspective, you have this very obnoxiously straight girl at this gay event. I don't know what they were thinking. You know? I imagine they were probably like, "What the fuck? Why are you here?" You know?

That was something that I feel like I've always really, up until Asheville, I had a hard time really identifying with being, gay or not really identifying, but identifying with the community around it, because I don't know. I don't think there was a lot of opportunity, and the opportunities I had were, the Queer NC group didn't work out because multiple things. I had an accident, but 01:19:00also that moment where I feel like my previous identity kind of trapped me in that and pushed me away from that group, and moving forward, I just didn't have the opportunity. So I think that colored my view of high school.

When I came in college I really wanted to identify more with that aspect of myself, I think, because I felt like a lot of it was like, "I'm gay, but I don't bring it up. I don't volunteer it." You know? It's this innocuous level of shame, of like, "I don't really want to volunteer this information, because why does it matter?" But now I put a lot of stock into it, because it does matter to me, and I think that's a big part of it, is the active pride. Not just being gay, but saying, "Fuck yeah, I'm here. I exist." So, I didn't know. What about 01:20:00you? Have you thought of anything?

Clara T:I mean, genuinely, because I don't like leaving the house. Genuinely, I don't know. I honestly think my first Pride was the first actual gay event I went to. Yeah, because I know all of the various LGBTQ groups, et cetera, Asheville. It's funny, my first fest I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to do one," and then they all met during my class periods. Then by the point that I actually had a class schedule that had matched, I'd either heard not great things about some of them or I knew people that I wasn't a fan of in some of them, et cetera, and I was just like, and I was also busy and I had a social group at that point, so I just didn't.

So other than hosting events, like my 15-year-old drag party and trying to hoist my very closeted identity on other people, zero regrets. Those are my best memories as a child. But other than those, I genuinely, I think, I honestly think my first LGBTQ event in general would be at the Pride event I went to just recently, because I just don't, I don't do events really in particular.

Heidi F:I forget that was your first Pride too.

Clara T:It was, yeah, and it was fine. It was fine. It was good. It was nice to be somewhere and be like, "Oh, I can be all out and lovey with my girlfriend and not really get weird looks, except from the tourists."

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:To be fair, that was funny.

Heidi F:That was funny.

Clara T:But yeah, like, it's not that. I don't really have a good example really, because I just, I don't do things.

Heidi F:Yeah, you don't gravitate towards the sort of events I feel like a lot of queer groups put on.

Clara T:I genuinely don't.

Heidi F:Yeah, that's fair.

Clara T:Yeah?

Heidi F:Yeah.

Speaker 1:Okay, so did being part of the LGBTQ community bring you in contact with people of different class and race backgrounds, and how did that impact your circumstance or outlook?

Heidi F:Oh, that's a super interesting question.

Clara T:I don't feel like being part of the LGBTQ community has brought me into contact with really different people in particular. Like, it's not, it's never been a thing for me, other than, I've had a couple of interactions. I have a 01:23:00couple of trans friends who, our initial bonding point was the fact that we are both trans women, and that was our initial like, "Yes, we will stick together. We are trans women who don't do the general thing, and we can talk, and be catty and bitchy about shit, and crack dysphoria jokes." I think that's really the most I've ever had that's like my actual identities brought me into contact with anyone. That, and I guess you Heidi, because I'm gay.

Heidi F:Yeah, yeah.

Clara T:Just because gay.

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:But genuinely, I mean, we were in classes, et cetera. It's not like we met because of that. I mean, we may have bonded because we are, excuse my language, but eye fucking each other across the room, but that's not, I don't really feel like that in a way counts in that same manner. So I guess my answer 01:24:00is no, not really, just because I don't, I'm not, yeah. I think you'll probably have a way more complex answer to this.

Heidi F:Yeah. I met a lot of fucking people who I, just a lot of people, a lot of different backgrounds like the, you said, and I genuinely think that, I don't know if it's the fact that I'm queer or if it's just Asheville, but I've had to reassess a lot of stuff that I didn't think I had, because in Raleigh, I'm super Liberal. Up here, I'm super Centrist, and it's been this weird push of like, it's weird being the Conservative one, especially like, my family, you know.

Clara T:Yeah, like, are you even a communist?

Heidi F:Right. Like, my family never raised me on politics. They raised me on 01:25:00morals. So the philosophy I grew up with was, "You should try to be a good person and accommodate everybody being okay, and try and helping out everyone. Leave people better when you leave them than when you find them." So I was super used to being this very morally Liberal person who's like, "No, racism is bad. Homophobia is bad," and I laugh at it now, because I kind of, I'm glad that there's a big movement now to criticize the whole White feminism and very, the privileged talking over the underprivileged for nothing but moral righteous 01:26:00points. But I feel like that's a lot of what I was growing up and I try not to be now, but I feel like sometimes I am.

But I was very used to being the more, I don't want to say Liberal, because I feel like that ties it into politics, and the politics are less important to me, although I was politically Liberal for my area, but it's also just on social issues and stuff. Then coming up here, I've had to confront a lot of things, like, the fact that there are a lot of issues that I actually, are Liberal, but comparatively I'm Conservative on. That's very weird, but I think it's also made me reevaluate a lot of why I have a lot of opinions, why I'm so anxious about showing any kind of PDA or why I'm so not okay with sharing parts of myself that 01:27:00I feel like I should be.

I think a lot of that, again, I don't know if that's the gay thing or Asheville itself, but I think it's been very good for me, because it's made me realize that you can do lip service all you want about accepting everyone. But then you're confronted with something that, by your definition, is outside of your comfort zone, and all of a sudden you're pearl clutching and like, "Oh my goodness, how can you do that?" And it's like, "Yeah, what the fuck? What am I doing?" You know, "Why am I caring about what's not my business?" I don't know.

So I feel like a lot of that has been through you specifically, Clara, my Satanist girlfriend, but a lot of that has been just through other people I've met. Also, I feel like I've also gotten the other side of it, like stories about 01:28:00growing up in very Conservative areas and being like, "Oh shit, I thought that that was only real in TV shows because they play it up for drama," but no, some women really do get just touched without permission, because that didn't happen where I was from. But, yeah. So I think I've had a lot of people open my eyes to things that I didn't even know I was ignorant about.

Clara T:I would like to address Heidi's offhand comment and note that, Anton LaVey and his opinions on eugenics, fascism, cetera can all die in a fire. Thank you.

Heidi F:UTST, not TSC.

Clara T:Damn straight.

Kaylin:Okay, so this is a serious one, and if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to. So obviously, addiction and suicide are big issues in the LGBTQ 01:29:00community. So how do you think we can better promote grounded and healthy harm reducing behaviors, and how have these realities shaped your journey?

Heidi F:I'm marinating.

Kaylin:Yeah. You can answer as much or little as you want, or just-

Clara T:Yeah. No, that's a really good question.

Heidi F:Yeah, that is a good question.

Clara T:That is a really good question.

Heidi F:Addiction and suicide, you said?

Kaylin:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi F:Yeah.

Clara T:I don't-

Heidi F:I mean, I don't know a gay person who's not an ex-cutter. It's grim, but it's kind of true.

Clara T:Yeah, I don't either.

Heidi F:Or someone who hasn't had a suicide in the past. I mean, fuck, we fit that bill. The issue though is it's so hard to answer, because I feel like ... 01:30:00So something I've tried to identify better with over the years, because I'm pretty candidly open about being queer, but something that I still struggle with a lot with being open about is actually being on the autism spectrum. It's something that I'm a lot more likely to hide and I don't volunteer to people a lot of the time, because I feel like, I mean, that's why I got bullied growing up. That's really the source of a lot of my social anxiety is over not getting social stuff, but not getting why. You know?

So I've come a long way through therapy, and just medication, and a lot of things to help lessen that, but it wasn't from being queer, and I think that's the hard thing is, I don't know. I think easing that specifically for LGBTQ+ 01:31:00people is the same as easing anything that affect us, of better representation and better resources to find people like us so that we know we're not the only ones.

Clara T:Yeah. Genuinely, I think there's a thing to what you're saying. For me, the thing that initially sparked my alcohol problem wasn't anything to do with my identity. It was other factors in my life. My childhood, I had a very weird family growing up. Well, I wouldn't say weird, but anyway, I effectively had, I grew up in almost a poly household basically, and my "stepdad" died when I was 01:32:00young and that's what started, kick started my alcohol addiction, but that's not really related.

Genuinely, I think there's thing to what Heidi was saying that, I don't know LGBTQ people in general who don't struggle with a variety of self harm addictions that are like, basically, everyone fits the bill in one way or another. But also for everyone I know, and I know the story behind, it's not generally identity that triggers it.

Heidi F:Yeah, a lot of people, it's bullying, and it's hard to say where bullying starts for one issue and stops for another.

Clara T:Well, also, I think it's, there's an element to that, and I know. People are like, I can't, mine is completely unrelated to that. I mean, okay, I take that back. There was also bullying, et cetera, which did that tie-in, but I think weirdly, a lot of it is like, it ties back to the, you don't see a path-

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS

Clara T:It ties back to the, you don't see a path through and you don't have people and archetypes and things that you relate to and so-

Heidi F:You feel alienated.

Clara T:You're in a dark spot, right? You've got to put in a dark spot for any reasons. For instance mine, my stepdad dying, in no way related to me actually to my identity. He was going to have cancer one way or the other, but because... I guess the best answer I can come up with here is because I was trans and because I'm bi-pan, it's our own.

I didn't have really role models I related to. I didn't have a visible path through this that I could visualize. And I guess that's the best I can get there 01:34:00and I don't think that helps really. I don't think that's the solution, et cetera. Again, I think these are human problems.

Heidi F:Yeah, I don't want to say that helping gay people is the same as helping anyone with a mental illness. Because I think that's insanely dismissive coming from where we're standing, because we also are very fortunate with the people in our lives.

Clara T:We're also very... I mean genuinely we're both privileged in a way.

Heidi F:Yeah, exactly. I think it would be presumptuous to say, "Fixing the same as everyone, medication and talk therapy." Not only is that just not an option for a lot of people, but that also might not be the source for some gay people. It isn't for us, but I've heard stories, they travel in this community.

Clara T:Yeah, I don't think... Yeah, I guess I don't really feel I have a lot more to say here, just because again, my struggles here aren't related other 01:35:00than the fact... I mean, I guess there's some, but it's not.

Heidi F:Yeah, it's not one to one.

Clara T:It's really not. There's a lot of contributing factors and in a lot of ways I don't feel I'm the person to champion or say anything for that. I'm not the qualified or best person for that to really lead the forefront.

Heidi F:Yeah, I feel from where I'm standing, the best thing we can do is just let more people know, when they are in dark spots especially, if it's because they feel grossed out or disgusted by their own identity or they feel bad about their identity, that it is okay. That it's just a thing that you are, it's whatever and there's a lot of really cool people you can meet.

Clara T:Genuinely, I think things like media representation, et cetera maybe 01:36:00would have helped me some. They would've helped me come out earlier, which would have made me generally happier I guess, which would have been good. I suppose there are things like general improvements that are like, "We talked about representation a lot."

And maybe that would have helped me, who knows? That's the world I can't really see, there's maybe having a world where I have realized I could have been trans earlier, where I realized that that's a thing. And yes, I would have been happy and maybe I would've dodged some of the crap along the way and coming out earlier would have helped maybe.

At that point then though, would I face more prejudice? And from that point on would that have then caused more issues? I don't know. It's really alien. Yeah, 01:37:00I don't have a solution. `

Heidi F:Yeah, I mean, I think from the stories I've heard, the biggest thing is that if you're going to start a family, you better be okay with whatever a child you end up with. If that child is autistic or severely mentally ill, if that child is disruptive and rough, if that child is trans or gay, you have to be ready to love that kid, because I'm pretty optimistic.

But the world's very scary when you're alone in it and no child should be alone in this world. A lot of the people I hear who struggle with severe addiction and stuff and end up on that path also got kicked out, because they weren't what their parents wanted. And I don't know why they had a kid then, because-

Clara T:That's a good point.

Heidi F:Yeah, I think, when I have a kid if, I definitely would follow my parents' example of, "What do you like boys, you like girls? Anything's good, just think about it." Because I think honestly that was really good advice they had given my parents.

And I think it helped a lot, because the fear was just, you're young and you're figuring yourself out and you're about to say something to your parents that they might not be the most jazzed about. But I was never afraid I wouldn't have a house after that night. I was never afraid I wouldn't have a family and I think that is massive.

Clara T:I will agree with you there. And again, why I'm not sure I'm the most qualified person to talk about that because yeah, when I came out to my family, 01:39:00they responded very well and I knew they would, like my direct family. I was surprised how weirdly accepting a lot of my extended family was.

That was unexpected, but my direct family, you're right, I didn't question whether I would still have a roof over my head and nor safety net, yeah.

Kaylin:What would you guys say this area needs to better support and include LGBTQ people?

Heidi F:Oh, my God. Fucking the bathroom bill.

Clara T:Well, I mean, that got kind of shot down ages ago, it's not.

Heidi F:It left a cultural mark.

Clara T:It did leave a cultural mark, it's true. I am afraid every time I use 01:40:00the bathroom, public bathroom.

Heidi F:Yeah, it was statement to bigots, that bigotry is okay. And I think honestly, whether or not the legalities there, I think there's a feeling of power over people that hasn't dissipated.

Clara T:I do think really culturally is, a cultural shift is the biggest thing. And that's low and that's not something that we can say like, "We need to do X, Y, Z." That's not a thing that we can set up groups or funds or et cetera to propagate or plush. And I do think we're getting more accepting over time.

Again, I think a lot of the things that... I mean, neither of us have the most I guess riveting or whatever stories of... But I think that's notable, because we 01:41:00are seeing a cultural shift and genuinely older people in our position wouldn't have the same story as we do.

And I do think we're seeing a cultural shift, I do think that the lives that we're able to lead are really in the make of that. But I think that just really, that's what we need more of And that just takes time. And I don't really think there's anything more specifically mean, I'd like my insurance to actually cover my estrogen. But that's again, that's also not a local area thing, that's-

Kaylin:Yeah, do you have any comments about trans health care, your experience with it?

Clara T:Again, that means CCHS at the main insurance health center has been an 01:42:00invaluable resource for me. They're amazing and I have no idea what I do otherwise. She did New [inaudible 01:42:13] though.

And other than that it's crappy, it's hard to get anything. I would love some surgery that I have no idea when or how I'm going to afford and especially with our current government, et cetera.

But there's not really, again there's not. It's shitty that's about the best I can say. It's not great. And I know it was notable for me when I was going in and just have consulting talking about potentially getting surgery, which I would love it.

It was definitely like, "Don't go through with this unless you give it back, to 01:43:00pay for it because your insurance could back out at any second even after the surgery.

And it's like, "Okay, so now that I'm a college student, so now?" There's not a lot else to say there though. It's bad. But that's legality and to shift legality, we need a social shift first and that takes time. And genuinely, I don't think there's anything more specific or more local than that.

We have good people doing good things, they can only do so much locally though. And otherwise we just need the world to become a better, more enlightened place and that happens over time.

Kaylin:Yeah, so on a more fun note, do you guys have any favorite stories from your dating life together?

Heidi F:Favorite stories of my dating life. Oh, I had one earlier that I was 01:44:00trying to figure out how to weasel it in.

Kaylin:Maybe coming home to parents or introducing to friends?

Heidi F:Oh, yeah. That's a dumb one. I've been out for seven years. Six last year, right? Yeah, six last, no wait, no, that's this year. Oh, my God. Now, I've been out for seven years, because it was this spring time was good. Anyway, my parents know I'm gay and it's not something I'm adult cagey about.

But I also don't like talking on the phone. That's not a gay thing, that's just a me thing. And so I was like, "I'm not going to tell my parents that I'm dating Clara for no other reason than I didn't really want to do that phone call." And I knew if I told them, I would get a phone call.

Clara T:I kept asking you if you told them.

Heidi F:We had that weird moment of like, "Have you told your parents yet?" "No, not yet babe." Not because it was a secret or anything. But basically, because I was lazy and I don't think at the time I was comfortable enough to just tell you it's because I didn't want to make a phone call.

It was this weird situation of, "No, I promise." "Yes, I'm out. It's good, they're chill." I just I don't want to make that phone call, because I don't like phone calls. And then, I did get home and I was like, "Hey, so I'm dating Clara." And got a unanimous... No, actually it was really funny.

I told my parents this, because they were all sitting in the room, because I was just back from college. And they'll fit say my brother, my parents were there. And they were like, well, I was like, "I'm dating Clara."

And my mom turns to my dad and points at him very sharply lingoes, "I told you." 01:46:00Because apparently I gushed a little when I told them about this supper pretty cool classmate who's super smart and teaching me modeling at nauseum. And so that was a very cute thing.

And then of course my mom was me like, "Why didn't you tell us earlier? I definitely knew this. How long have you been together? When do I get a meet her? Very, excited." That was pretty funny.

Clara T:Yeah, I think honestly, I think one of my memory for me is the first time I drove down to Raleigh, I remember I got lost in their very Suburbia cookie-cutter neighborhood.

Heidi F:It is not Suburbia-cookie cutter.

Clara T:It's a very nice Suburbia cookie-cutter.

Heidi F:You haven't been to Suburbia yet.

Clara T:Yes, I have.

Heidi F:That's not Suburbia. No, you haven't been to true suburbia, the houses 01:47:00are weird enough.

Clara T:Anyway, well your house is and that's kind of the point. I finally found the place. And I drive up and it's up this drive and I drive up. And it's a big old house. And from the outside it looks very nice. I mean, once I got in and actually not the [inaudible 01:47:24] room, I felt a lot more comfortable when I saw there were holes in the ceiling, et cetera.

But I got up there and I'm like, "Oh, this is a big house. Heidi, she's never talked about it, she's from a lot of money. Is this a different experience? Because I'm driving it from my Subaru where, it's my ancient Subaru where the AC doesn't work.

And I'm dripping sweat and because it's the middle of summer and I've just driven four hours and I'm kind of like, "Oh, is this a lot more formal?" And 01:48:00then the thought crossed my mind, "Is this going to be like, "Trans get out." That was a fun moment.

I definitely got a lot more comfortable once I got upstairs out of the main room. And was like, "Oh yeah, no holes in the wall, peeling paint, okay this is relatable."

Heidi F:If my mom ever hears this interview, she's going to strangle you.

Clara T:I know.

Heidi F:So self [inaudible 00:15:30].

Clara T:But yeah, no. It was like this, a beautiful yard and this massive house and I was-

Heidi F:It's really not that big. We just have a big yard. Our house is awesome. It's real old. It's early 1900s. It's got a fountain that doesn't work and hasn't worked, since we bought it. Love it, it's great. It looks a lot more showy than it actually is.

Clara T:Noted, but yeah, I think that was one of the most... I think that's most 01:49:00of me saying, "Yeah." I think, meeting my parents went over fairly well for you.

Heidi F:I forget what the first one is like. Oh, your dad didn't know we were dating.

Clara T:Oh, that's right. I tell my mother everything, but my father, I sometimes forget that my mother and my father at the same person and the things I tell her don't immediately get to Heidi. Though I swear I told him beforehand, I think he just forgot.

Heidi F:Did you just say my name in place of your dad's name? They don't get to Heidi.

Clara T:Oh, that's disturbing, if I did.

Heidi F:Well, that's recorded. You better sign that non-disclosure agreement [crosstalk 01:49:48].

Clara T:I don't think I did, but anyway. No, my, I don't know. It's true my father. I talked to my father like, "What did you think of my girlfriend?" He's 01:50:00like, "Who's your girlfriend?" And I'm like, "Dad."

Heidi F:Heidi and then he was like, "Oh, I didn't notice."

Clara T:You're like, "Oh, I just thought she was your friend." I didn't realize she was your girlfriend. I didn't pay them much attention.

Heidi F:Oh, I know what I want to talk about, Waffle House dates. They're awesome. They've been a staple in our relationship , our first date was at a Waffle House, because I have bad food taste.

Clara T:I thought our first date was at sushi and it went very poorly according to you.

Heidi F:You told me that wasn't our first date though.

Clara T:It's true. I thought we were just friends going out for sushi.

Heidi F:No.

Clara T:She's shaking her head. It's like narrating for the microphone.

Heidi F:Well, I'm glad you've said the two she doesn't count and I agree, 01:51:00because that was subjectively a worst first date, so our Sorry, true first date it was at a Waffle House and it was also very good. I had [crosstalk 01:51:08] .Clara T:It was also subjectively ages before we actually got together and I was also in another relationship.

Heidi F:Right, yeah.

Clara T:Notable, it's a lot more. Yeah, I can understand why you thought it was a date and I didn't think it was a date.

Heidi F:Yeah, but now that's always been a fun staple of trying to figure out where we want to go out, because I'm not a big eating out person.

Clara T:And I'm like, "Let's go to a fancy restaurant and blah blah blah". And you're like, "Can we go to Waffle House?"

Heidi F:And that's been a long staple of trying to throw out all the old dinner plans and you're like, "Maybe we can go here." And I'm like, "I don't know if I'm in the mood for that." "Maybe we can go here." I'm, "Oh, no."

You want to go to Waffle House don't you?" "Yeah, let's go to Waffle House. They always give us weird looks at Waffle House, except the waitresses, they love us.

Clara T:Some of them give us weird looks.

Heidi F:Nah, we tip them good.

Clara T:Yes, but there's always the, "Are they together? Are they not? Are they friends? Are they in?" And they always give you the the kg looks and they're always analyzing.

Heidi F:Oh, they know we're gay. You're not settle in public.

Clara T:Shut up.

Kaylin:What has provided you guys with the greatest satisfaction in life?

Heidi F:Oh, my God. Greatest satisfaction in life?Clara T:Greatest satisfaction in life?

Kaylin:Yeah.

Heidi F:That's a big one. A bit ago I heard on... I forget where, but I heard basically the idea of you should always go out and try to tell stories that only 01:53:00you could tell. And I have always known basically from the moment that I got serious about what I want to do with my life, that I've wanted to tell stories in one form or another.

Kaylin:Same.

Heidi F.And so everything surrounding that has just been, what medium do, I want to pursue professionally? What industry do I want to go into to tell stories? But it's never been a doubt whether or not I was going to tell stories.

And so when I heard that the more I thought about it, the more I realized that that is maybe the best piece of advice in regards to wanting to tell stories that I've heard, because I kept trying to think of exceptions to that.

But you know like Oh well sometimes he for representation purposes you want to tell stories that aren't just written for you. You want to have gay characters 01:54:00and maybe you aren't gay and don't know immediately how to tell that.

But that's not what the advice is saying. It's saying tell a story that only you could tell. That doesn't mean don't have characters that aren't yourself, but that means the point of the story should be something you want to say.

I feel like I had kind of an epiphany, an epiphany back in high school when I've realized maybe this is an obvious thing. But I realized that we are just a culmination of our experiences really.

I mean, there's biology, but I feel our experiences shape us and stories are way we can share experiences, so you don't have to experience it firsthand. When my dad would give me long anecdotes when I was stressed about stuff and I was like, 01:55:00"Oh, you don't understand."

He was trying to share advice. Not advice of do this, don't do this, but just, "Here's my experience with what you're dealing with, so do with that what you will." And so I've realized I want to share my experience through my stories of my life.

Of all the stories I want to tell revolve around coming to terms with yourself and your mind. Whether you're born neuro-typical or not, whether you're born straight or not, dealing with how can you be yourself?

Because we say be yourself, but we don't say how and I think the how is a little way harder part. I think what gives me the most satisfaction in life is getting to share that with people.

Getting to share experiences and pay everything I've learned forward and vice 01:56:00versa, hearing stories, hearing others. I think. Yeah, I think that's why I get the most meaning from life.

Clara T:Mine's actually pretty close to yours. I mean, we did kind of one of our early planning points definitely was the, "Oh, we both want to do very similar things." I genuinely think for me the point that really drives the point of communication there is when you have to be very personal moments.

I remember right after I got my one and only time being published, I went to reading and read out the poetry that had gone into the journal and it was funny afterwards I had one of the publishing staff come over and just talk with how they had argued to get my work into the journal, because it had affected them.

And I've had a lot of that and moments like that or even when just with friends, I've been able to share something and have it on a personal level, affect them. That personal level of communication, whether it be in a moment like that with a stranger or genuinely when I'm like, "Hey Heidi, I wrote a thing here."

And I read her something, which happens way too much, it doesn't. But I love showing off and she goes, "That's meaningful." Goes on Heidi terror, nobody else I know does analyzing it. A moment like that just as well, it doesn't have to be a stranger, but that moment of sharing.

Heidi F:Yeah, I definitely feel the moment I realized I fell in love with 01:58:00storytelling is in the, I have a lot of family that is in blood-related but I grew up with since a young child. So they're family for all intents and purposes is I have a little sister named Haley and I used to just sit on a swing because...

In hindsight I now know that that's a fidgeting thing, so I needed to constantly be moving. But at the time I thought it was totally normal that I sat on a swing rocking back and forth while telling stories to Haley, which was not, who wants very much not on a swing.

But I would sit there and I would write, I would tell stories for her and I remember I would stop sometimes and just, she would like wait a second and then open her eyes and be like, "Shut up. [inaudible 01:58:54] keep going." Saying shut up, because she was mad that I had stopped.

And when I said certain things, I could get this reaction or that and it was 01:59:00just a one on one story time that I was very much writing or not writing, but telling for her. And honestly, if I had to pick a happy place, that would be it. I think that's what I took away is that stories can bring a lot of joy to people and making people happy, it's good. Not to be trite.

Clara T:Notably why we've [inaudible 00:26:32], but why I'm sure we're nowhere near as far as we should be through this and we're two hours into this, because we both our telling and just talking.

Kaylin:That was actually the last question [crosstalk 01:59:43].

Clara T:What?

Kaylin:Yeah, that was actually my last question.

Heidi F:Wow.

Kaylin:Yeah.

Clara T:Hell, yeah. We were concise, [inaudible 00:26:53].

Kaylin:Yeah. I mean, either of you have anything you want to add or are you good?

Heidi F:Be gay, do crimes.

Clara T:How did you? God damn it, Heidi.

Heidi F:[crosstalk 00:27:05].

Clara T:You beat me to it.

Kaylin:Well, thank you both very much.

Clara T:[crosstalk 02:00:12] thank you.

Heidi F:Thank you.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS