Oral History with Barbara Bell

Horace V.:Hello. Today is Saturday, November 2nd, 2019, and this is the first interview with Barbara Bell. My name is Horace Vanderbilt, and I'll be the interviewer today. Thank you for sharing the gift of your stories with us today. With your permission, all stories will be archived with Special Collections at UNC Asheville and made available as audio and typed transcript files. I set aside two hours for this interview, but at any point, we can take a break or end the interview, if you so choose.

Barbara Bell:Thank you, Horace. It's a privilege to be here.

Horace V.:Thank you. It's a privilege to be interviewing you. So I guess, to start, could you just start by telling me a little about when and where you grew up?

Barbara Bell:I grew up in White Plains, New York, outside of New York City, left there and went to nursing school in Chapel Hill in 1963, and when I graduated, I never went back to New York. Stayed in Chapel Hill for a couple of years, and then came to western North Carolina, working for the VA. Was here for four 00:01:00years, and then I moved through the VA system in several different positions in several parts of the country. Then was able to come back in 1988 and finished my career in 2002.

Barbara Bell:During that time, I was becoming increasingly concerned about the way people with AIDS were being treated, as well as some of my LGBTQ friends. If you hurt my friends, you hurt me, and I've taken it very personally. I have many gay and lesbian friends and transgender friends, and if they were not part of my life, my life would not be as rich or as full as it is. I treasure their friendships and want their lives to be as easy as mine has been, in terms of 00:02:00employment acceptance.

Barbara Bell:People talk about white privilege. Well, there is also straight privilege, and I've never had to worry about whether I was going to lose my job or my home. I have seen that happen to friends of mine, and it's despicable.

Horace V.:Awesome. That's really powerful stuff. Thank you so much. You talked a little bit about working at the VA. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what that was like?

Barbara Bell:Well, I was in progressive administrative positions as I moved around the country. I came back here as the chief nurse at the local VA medical center, and then I was the associate director for patient care services. I cut a deal with my boss that - the light went off - with my boss that as long as I 00:03:00fulfilled all my job responsibilities, I wanted to work in the infectious disease clinic with the HIV patients, which I did.

Barbara Bell:They are a wonderful group of people, and I have treasured them. I now volunteer at Loving Food Resources, a food pantry for people with HIV and AIDS and anyone in home hospice, and many of my patients from the VA are still clients at our food pantry.

Horace V.:That's really great. What's it like working at that food pantry? I actually hadn't heard about it before.

Barbara Bell:Clients are referred by the Western North Carolina AIDS Project or the Western North Carolina Community Health Services and the different hospice organizations. We call ourselves a little pantry that can. We are set up like a 00:04:00small grocery store so that people shop without paying for the food we provide. We have levels on each shelf, and they leave with anywhere from 40 to 75 pounds of food each week.

Barbara Bell:One of our differences is that we are open every week and our clients can shop every week. Some food pantries are open every week, but some clients can only go once a month. If someone comes on the bus, we have volunteers that will take them home so they don't have to struggle on the bus with a big box of food.

Horace V.:That's awesome.

Barbara Bell:We also have outreach services to various counties in the 18 counties of western North Carolina that go out periodically during the month.

Barbara Bell:Today, we sent pre-packed boxes to our local solace center, which 00:05:00will be delivered to their patients during the week. We had 49 clients that came through the pantry today, and we sent over a ton of food out with them today.

Horace V.:Wow.

Barbara Bell:Yeah. It's a very rewarding job, and we have a paid executive director, but other than that, we are volunteer-driven. I've been doing that for 25 plus years.

Horace V.:Wow. That's really amazing. It sounds like you've formed some really amazing relationships here, like with your patients, with the people who come to the pantry over the years. So would you say that's what's kept you in the area? Is there other stuff that's keeping you in western North Carolina?

Barbara Bell:I love the climate, except for today.

Horace V.:Yeah.

Barbara Bell:But I like the climate. I like the change of seasons. I like 00:06:00Asheville because of its variety, and we talk about "keep Asheville weird." I like the differences. I like the crafts in the area. I think we have amazing artisans in this part of the country, and there really wasn't anyplace else I wanted to go. I had planned on coming back here to retire, but I was fortunate my job brought me back, so I was already here.

Horace V.:Awesome. Let's see. Yeah, so it sounds like you've been in this area for a long time. It sounds like you've been working with LGBT people here for a long time. How would you say that the climate in western North Carolina has either stayed the same or changed or gotten better or worse over the years?

Barbara Bell:I think it's gotten better. Somebody teased me at the VA when I was working with the HIV patients and said, "Well, half the hospital thinks you're a lesbian." I said, "Because I take care of HIV patients?" "Well, yeah."

Barbara Bell:But that doesn't happen anymore. More and more people have become concerned about this population of clients. We have wonderful volunteers who've been with us for years, and, as I said to somebody, "And if I were a lesbian, what difference would it make?"

Barbara Bell:I think that's the big thing, is it's not a choice. It's not an orientation. I heard a tape of an African American female minister who spoke to our sexual reality, and that's what it is. Mine is mine. Yours is yours. No one looked in the mirror and made a choice, and that's what I say to someone who says, "Oh, well, that's their choice." I say, "When did they look in the mirror and say, 'I want to be gay. I want to be lesbian. I want to be transgender'?" Nobody says that. We are who we are, and trying to change that does not work.

Horace V.:For sure. Let's see. You definitely talked about working both with the food pantry and with the VA. Have there been any other organizations that you've either been a part of or just noticed?

Barbara Bell:I've been on the board of the Western North Carolina AIDS Project, and I still volunteer with them on their annual Dining Out for Life. I'm an ambassador at one of the local restaurants.

Barbara Bell:Like I say, I can't imagine my life without my LGBTQ friends. I wouldn't want my life without them, and I think that, while it's better, there's a long way to go.

Horace V.:For sure.

Barbara Bell:When I hear stories of things happening to people, it's a tragedy. It is despicable, and what frightens me the most is where our country's going. 00:09:00The hate in this country is awful. This is not the country I grew up in. It's not the country you grew up in. But it's the country, unfortunately, that people who are growing up in now. I'm very rabid if we don't change the administration next year, I don't know what's going to happen to us.

Horace V.:For sure. Yeah, let's see. You said this isn't the same kind of culture that you grew up in. Do you want to elaborate on that a little more?

Barbara Bell:Well, we didn't have an administration that mocked a handicapped reporter, that made crude, vulgar references about female anatomy, that was proud to have friends who was a known pedophile. I mean, that was not in this country, and, to me, it should have stopped the day the current President made 00:10:00fun of the disabled reporter. That should have ended it right there, and I'm angry. I'm an old, angry white woman.

Horace V.:Awesome. All right. I do want to jump gears a little bit.

Barbara Bell:Yeah.

Horace V.:You had talked about going to that same sex wedding and how that impacted you. Do you want to talk about that a little bit more?

Barbara Bell:Yeah. Two male friends of mine were getting married, and it was a very small wedding. I didn't think much about it until I got there, and then it hit me, "What? This could never have happened ten years ago." It would never have happened when I was their age or growing up, and to think about the fight that people had to have to have their basic rights recognized - and to me, it's an issue of basic rights. If we say all men are created equal, then they should be equal in everything.

Barbara Bell:That, to me, is wrong when people say, "Oh, no, no, marriage is for heterosexual people." It's not. My friends, my LGBTQ friends who are married have stronger marriages than some of my straight friends, and they stay together. A lot of times, I've heard younger people say, "Oh, well, if it doesn't work out, I'll get a divorce." You do not hear same-sex couples saying that. They have waited so long.

Barbara Bell:Two of my dearest lesbian friends have a son. I'm the honorary grandmother, and that child has been raised with more love and more care than a 00:12:00lot of children I know. Both moms are teachers, and everything with him growing up was a learning experience, but he never knew that's what it was. He didn't know they were teaching him things. It was part of their life, and that should be the right of every couple, same-sex or not, to raise their child and be respected for who they are and what he does and what they do.

Horace V.:For sure. Yep. Cool. Let's see. You did talk a little bit in the beginning about straight privilege and what that means to you. Maybe if you could talk a little more about your journey to becoming such a good ally, if there were any like really major points in that for you.

Barbara Bell:No. I met some very wonderful gay and lesbian people. We became 00:13:00friends, and there's no difference in them than there is in me. We both want the same things in life. We want a roof over our head. We want the right to go to work and not be fearful that we're going to be fired. We want to go out in public and hold hands and not be shunned, because they do that. It's wrong.

Barbara Bell:It is so wrong that I can't even describe it, but it hits me in the pit of my stomach. Why can't two women or two men kiss in public? If I have that right as a straight person, nobody would look at me if I were kissing a man. So why should they look at me funny if I decided to kiss a woman?

Horace V.:For sure. Let's see. So we did talk a little bit about changes in western North Carolina. I'm thinking back to maybe New York or Chapel Hill or other places you've been. Do you think Asheville is significantly different for the community than those places?

Barbara Bell:Oh, I think when I was in Chapel Hill, I know that I knew gay people or LGBTQ people, but I didn't know that I knew them. I mean, they were in our community, but Stonewall hadn't happened, and that made a big push forward. It certainly made me wake up.

Barbara Bell:Like I say, I am sure that I knew LGBTQ persons, but I never met 00:15:00anybody that identified that way, and there was such a fear, I think, for people to identify themselves or to come out. I think it's more open now, but we still have bigots, and we have to recognize that, in western North Carolina, we're in the Bible Belt. The Bible Belt has its own preconceived ideas about LGBTQ persons, and it's because they use the Bible to shame people or attempt to shame people.

Barbara Bell:The Bible is about love. It's not about hate, and religion should be about love and not about hate. I couldn't go to a church ... I'm not affiliated with a church right now, but I could not go to a church that was not all-inclusive.

Horace V.:Let's see. So we have talked a little bit about the differences in Asheville, how you think it's definitely improved here. Do you think that Asheville, as it is ... Would you say that it's currently more accepting than most places? Do you think we still have a ways to go?

Barbara Bell:I think it's more accepting than some places - than, say, a small Southern town. I think there's a long way to go. I think a lot of people are out to friends and family, but they may not be out to the public.

Barbara Bell:Several years ago, I had a patient at the VA from Clay County, which is out in the boonies. I mean, he lived alone. I could leave messages for 00:17:00him, but the only thing I could say is, "This is Barbara. Please call me." He wanted nothing mentioned about who I was with and certainly not anything about his care, which I wouldn't have done in the first place, but I probably would have said, "This is Barbara from the VA. Please give me a call." Well, we didn't do that. Nobody ever went in his house. But there was so much stigma that he was so afraid, and we were able to work that out.

Barbara Bell:I think more and more people ... I mean, it's a double whammy. If you're LGBTQ, you have one set of problems, and if you add HIV to that, you have another set of problems so that he felt pressured both ways.

Horace V.:For sure. Would you say cases like that were pretty common?

Barbara Bell:In outlying counties, and even here in Asheville, when we first started having HIV patients, people were a little concerned. I'm a touch person. I would hug patients, I would hold their hands, and, gradually, we changed some attitudes. We didn't change everybody, and there is some fear there.

Barbara Bell:My father was concerned. He said, "You're going to get AIDS." I said, "I'm not having sex." I said, "I'm not having unprotected sex, and I'm not sharing needles." He said, "Well, what about kissing somebody?" I said, "I kiss my patients all the time." Unless you engage in risky behaviors, you're not going to contract HIV. Now, yes, there was the danger at one point with blood 00:19:00transfusions, but they resolved that issue. So you don't find that happening anymore.

Horace V.:Awesome. Would you say that stigma is less pronounced today than it was?

Barbara Bell:I think so, or the bigots are more discreet, and I think that's a lot of it. Some people know that ... I can't really go around saying things about people, so I keep it to myself or in my family.

Barbara Bell:There was a horrifying story on NPR this morning, which one of the volunteers was telling me about. Pakistan has seen an overwhelming increase in HIV because there are these little pop-up medical clinics that don't have adequate supplies, and they've been using the same needles over and over on people and not sterilizing them. So they have children and adults and probably 00:20:00don't have the medications for them, either.

Horace V.:Gotcha. All right. I really like what you said about the bigots definitely being more discreet nowadays. Do you have any good ...Barbara Bell:I think there's some pressure there, but we have an administration that doesn't care what you say about people, and when you see some of the rallies - which are not as big as they claim, but really rabid people, it's frightening. It's frightening what can happen to anybody, whether you're LGBTQ or you're an ally or you're just Joe Blow walking down the street.

Barbara Bell:When I lived in Mississippi, I was driving down ... I lived in Biloxi. I was driving down the beach highway, and the Ku Klux Klan was out. 00:21:00First time I had ever seen the Klan live. I've seen movies. I've seen news reports. They were doing a highway hold-up, stopping people to get money. I was terrified, and all I could think of was, "You're terrified. What's it like to be an African American or Latino and see this?" I can't imagine the fear. That's some white privilege.

Horace V.:For sure.

Barbara Bell:Can we stop for a minute and get some water?

Horace V.:Oh, yeah, no problem.

Horace V.:All right. Welcome back. This is once again, the first interview with Barbara Bell. Okay. Do you want to go ahead?

Barbara Bell:Okay. I was remembering a time in the VA when we did a special project in ambulatory care, and I was able to be the head of that. We handpicked 00:22:00the nurses who participated and gave them special training. One of them happened to be African-American. And when I was leaving the facility, transferring to another VA, she came up to me and she hugged me and she said, "Thank you for making me proud of being black."

And I thought, "But I didn't treat you any differently." Which meant I treated her the same as I did the others, but it made her proud of who she was. And I think that that's something that I want all my gay and lesbian and transgender friends to be proud of who they are, and not have to look over their shoulders for the bigots. Like I said earlier, it's our sexual reality and who we are and 00:23:00we're no different. We just happen to love differently, and that's not a crime.

Like I say, I enjoy my LGBTQ friends as much as I enjoy my straight friends, and sometimes even more. I'm vice president of the Asheville Gay Men's Chorus. I've been on their board for ... This is the third year. I'm proud to be on that board, and I am so proud when they sing. I get goosebumps every time. I've told them, I said, "Every time I think I can't be prouder, you do something else."

They are making change in the community by who they represent and how they present themselves. They have a float in the Christmas parade. They've been 00:24:00invited to sing at different events, different churches want them to come. And that says to me that there is a broader acceptance now. I imagine there's some people in those congregations that don't come that day. Well, that's just fine. Stay home and be miserable. But I want my friends to enjoy the same life I do, or to enjoy what they want their life to be without being criticized. I certainly hope I'm helping with that.

Horace V.:For sure. Yeah.

Barbara Bell:I've gotten a lot of friends to various concerts that the chorus does. It's like, "I never knew they existed!" I said, "We advertise." You just 00:25:00have to think outside your box. And that's what I hope my straight friends will do, is to think outside their box.

Horace V.:Awesome. With the Asheville Gay Men's Chorus, I've heard them. They're really great. What's it like being on the board for that?

Barbara Bell:It's a great group of people, both the chorus members and the board. They want to make a difference in the community through music, and music heals a lot of things. We have our Christmas concert December the 14th and 15th, so watch for it. But it's beautiful music by a group of beautiful people. I know some of them, not all of them, but I'm proud to be on their board.

Horace V.:Awesome. All right. I guess kind of changing topics a little bit.

Barbara Bell:Yeah.

Horace V.:We talked a little bit about this in the break, but would you say that there's any particular LGBTQ people who have inspired you? Who you just really, really care about that you want to talk about?

Barbara Bell:Let me think on that for a minute.

Horace V.:Oh. Yeah, that's fine.

Barbara Bell:I think a lot of my inspiration has been from LGBTQ patients that I've had, and the struggles that they've had to go through, the paranoia that I mentioned in my patients lived in Clay County. It's not as pronounced here. Volunteers always wonder what will happen if they see one of the clients in the 00:27:00community. A lot of them spot me first, and they come up and they either hug or say hello. I call them by their first name, but we don't have to talk about the food pantry or them being my former patient at the VA.

Most of the clients I've run into, and I've run into a lot of them. I don't have any qualms about doing that. And I've heard volunteers say, "Well, I ran into so-and-so and he didn't seem to mind." I said, "Well, you're not going to talk about his illness or his coming to the food pantry." Like I said before, I think it's been a double whammy for a gay male who had HIV. And I think there have 00:28:00been a lot of struggles, job-wise. I would say that all of my LGBTQ friends inspire me, because they are honest people working to have a better life for themselves and their families. I don't see any difference in what we're trying to do. We're trying to live our lives. The only difference is when we love, we love a little differently.

I really don't know how to say that very well. I see many of my friends working 00:29:00with nonprofits to make a better life for people, and being willing to ... Like our pantries, there's dirty work. There's washing bins, and it's not just saying hello to somebody and help them pick out meat. It's dirty work, you know? Going through produce to make sure you get the rotten apples out, so that the rest of them would be good for the week. People don't think twice about doing that. Of course, AIDS is not seen as much as a gay disease anymore as it once was. There's still people who think it is, but you look at whole generations in Africa that are being annihilated because they've been sick and there's been no medicine to save them. And AIDS is a chronic illness now, so that people can 00:30:00have good lives.

One of the clients today showed me his pictures from Halloween. He went in drag as Marilyn Monroe, and he used to perform many years ago as Marilyn Monroe. He said to me today, "Not bad for 65. Is it?" I said, "I never looked that good at 65." But I think that many that I know in the LGBTQ community want it to be a better world for younger people who are LGBTQ. Which is a big mouthful to say, but they don't want them to have to go through the same things that they did. I 00:31:00remember I had friends, a gay couple, who used to have a dinner at the night after Thanksgiving.

Everybody did everything with their families on Thanksgiving, and then they had a potluck the day after. And I remember an older lesbian couple, and Marlene. I don't know how we got on the subject, talking about what it had been like when she was young and how she had to live and hide. And all I could do was sit there with the tears streaming down my face. It was so intense, but she wasn't bitter. 00:32:00She'd not forgotten it, but she moved forward to have a better life. And was pleased that she and her wife could go out in public, could go to church together, but there's still that pain of things that people had to go through, and it was so wrong.

Horace V.:For sure. I definitely heard you mention how a lot of people in the community right now are trying to make things better for younger LGBTQ folks. Do you think that that's definitely going to be changing different things than it would be for the older generations of the community?

Barbara Bell:I think so. We have youth out right now, and the more established organizations like North Carolina Pride, the chorus, and other groups are supporting them as they learn to live their lives. They have some wisdom to 00:33:00share, but the younger folks have to make choices too. It frightens me from one standpoint. And then back to the AIDS thing, because I hear kids saying, "Oh. Well, there's medicine. There's a pill I can take. It's not a death sentence. I'm not going to be dead in two years if I get it." And that frightens me because there's no reason to get HIV now, and unfortunately it still happens.

Horace V.:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Barbara Bell:Then I had an older patient who said to me, came first time I saw him in the clinic. I said, "How are you?" And he said, "I'm fine. I was stupid." 00:34:00I said, "What do you mean you were stupid?" And he said, "I didn't think at my age I could get it." I said, "Well, that's unfortunate. But we're here to help you live with it, not die with it." I don't want to see kids dying or becoming invalids because it is a chronic illness.

Some of the medicines create problems as well as help the virus. I don't want anybody to have to live like that, or have to think about it every day when they go out of the house. And the same thing if you're LGBTQ. You shouldn't have to think about that when you go out to work, go out to church, go to shop, go to the PTA. Whatever you're going to do, you shouldn't have to think about, "Oh, I'm LGBTQ. How do I have to behave?"

Horace V.:For sure. And with having to think about, "Oh, my gender identity, my sexuality, my HIV/AIDS status." Do you think that creates more problems for LGBT people or people with that status than people who don't have those things?

Barbara Bell:It can. I think if someone who was hiring, I think they have more sophisticated ways of getting around hiring someone who's LGBTQ. But they have to be very creative, but they still do it. People still don't get jobs. But then sometimes people do in places that you would never think that they would. I have friends who have very responsible physicians, and it's known in their company 00:36:00that they are.

They don't flaunt it around, but I think they should be able to take their husband or their wife to the annual Christmas party, just like I could take my husband if I were married to that party. We all should be able to do that.

Horace V.:For sure. So yeah, definitely disparities in jobs. Have you ever noticed or heard about any disparities in health care when it comes to being LGBTQ?

Barbara Bell:I have heard that some doctors refuse to care for someone who's LGBTQ. And I think it's important that, especially for transgender individuals, they need a physician who knows what this entails and can help them. And in that 00:37:00case, they'd be better off than they would be with someone who had preconceived ideas about it. I don't know who the physicians are in this area who treat LGBTQ persons, but I know there are a few and my friends have sought them out. They make sure on the front end that the physician understands who they are and their sexual reality.

Horace V.:Awesome. And would you say your friends have been able to find those physicians pretty easily, or has it been more of like a scavenger hunt, trying to ask around?

Barbara Bell:I think it's easier now. Friends of mine that moved here from the state of Washington about five or six years ago were able to find physicians without too much trouble. They checked with other friends, but then I do that too if I'm looking for a physician. I searched a long time before I found the 00:38:00right orthopedist to replace my knee. It's something we all check on, but they shouldn't be turned away because of who they are.

Horace V.:All right. Cool. [inaudible 00:16:45]. is there anything else in particular you want to talk about?

It's still recording, too.

Horace V.:Yeah.

Barbara Bell:Want to stop for a minute?

Horace V.:Yeah.

Horace:Welcome back. My name is Horace Vanderbilt, and this is the continuation of the first interview with Barbara Bell. So we were talking a little bit about Blue Ridge Pride. Could you just tell me a little bit of your experiences with that?

Barbara:Well, I in the past have always worked at the booth for our food pantry, 00:39:00Loving Food Resources. But I've had time to walk around and talk to other nonprofits. I've been glad to see that more churches have a booth there and are trying to be more inclusive. Because I think it's important that LGBTQ persons are welcome in what you might call mainstream organizations like churches. Because many have been badly hurt by the church in the past and have turned away from the churches because of that. So I'm glad to see that more churches are making an effort.

Barbara:I hope that it's the reality that really they are being more inclusive 00:40:00and that people will feel welcome rather than having to form their own organization, because we should all be able to go to the same places. The same organizations, the same churches, PTA, whatever it is. Everyone should be welcomed, but I think more churches are making an effort. I understand that First Baptist here has been making an effort to be all inclusive and has lost members because of it. But they also may get more members. And my LGBTQ friends that are part of a church community work as hard as everybody else to make the church a better place. I was not there this year, but I heard that there were 00:41:00several more churches that had a booth, which is great. But I'm glad to see Blue Ridge Pride has a float in the Christmas parade.

Horace:Oh really?

Barbara:Yeah, and the chorus has had one in the past. I don't know if they're combining this year or not, but that wouldn't have happened many years ago. I remember, and I don't know how far back it was, that there was going to be a pride festival and they were getting people to walk with them from different organizations in support of the community. And there was a lot of nasty name 00:42:00calling as we walked. But you just keep walking and hold your head up high and don't lower yourself to their level.

Barbara:Yeah, if you don't like someone who's gay, they don't have to be your friend, but you at least owe them courtesy and respect for them as a person. I know a lot of straight people I don't want to be friends with. And there are gay people that I know that I respect them as a person, I don't want to particularly be their friend. But I have others that I am friends with and I think that's the kind of thing we should be able to do, is pick and choose our friends on as people we like, but not because of their sexual reality. And I remember someone 00:43:00saying to me one time, and we were friends and we'd done something. Well, you know, I'm gay. Yeah, I don't think about it. And I think more about it as I'm older for them because like I said earlier, what they have had to endure is wrong.

Barbara:And I say I'm an angry old white woman. And as I get older I get angrier and I'm not afraid to tell people what I think, they're mistreating someone. But I feel that way about someone mistreating anyone, a child, an animal, an older person. We should be able to live our lives and we're not there yet. And I hope 00:44:00we get there. I may not live to see it, but I hope we do.

Horace:Sure, do you think we will?

Barbara:I'm cautiously optimistic. It won't be easy, but I think it's better than it was. And if some of the straight community will get out there and just meet people, you'll find out they're no different than you are. They have the same dreams, the same goals, they want their children to have the same opportunities. So what if you have two moms or two dads? It's better than being in a single parent family.

Barbara:One of the things that, it was on Facebook the other day about a gay 00:45:00gentleman who had adopted, I can't remember if it's a little boy or a little girl with down syndrome that nobody would adopt. It was a little girl and I thought how wonderful that all these other people are rejecting her, that you had the guts and the love to give her a home and a family. And everybody wants to be loved, whether it's your birth family or your extended family and you want that sense of community.

Horace:For sure. I do want to ask you is typically as an ally, what else do you think that other straight allies can do for the community?

Barbara:Well, as I said a few minutes ago, they can meet the community. They can 00:46:00attend the Blue Ridge Pride Festival. They can attend an Asheville gay men's chorus concert. Get to know people, invite them to gatherings that they're having with mainly straight people. Now don't invite them as a token. Invite them as your friend.

Horace:For sure. All right. Is there anything else that you can think of?

Barbara:I can't think of anything. Can you?

Horace:I can't think of anything either. Yeah. This has been really great.

Barbara:Thank you, Horace. I'm glad to had the opportunity.

Horace:Yeah. Thank you so much.