Oral History with David Berkey

Maya Yulin:

... record, here we go. So today's date for the recording. Today's date is April 19th, and my name is Maya Yulin O'Keefe and I am talking with...

David Berky:

David Berkey.

Maya Yulin:

All right. And what are your pronouns?

David Berky:

He, him.

Maya Yulin:

Awesome. What day were you born? If you're comfortable sharing.

David Berky:

July 21st, 1949.

Maya Yulin:

All right. And where were you born?

David Berky:

Los Angeles, California.

Maya Yulin:

Okay. So the first question I'm going to ask is how would you describe yourself?

David Berky:

It doesn't come up very often. I tend to be somewhat detailed, focused. I'm very 00:01:00thorough and dependable, if I make a commitment I honor it. And I don't have a lot of patience for people that don't... I'm a little bit of a loner, I would say. I mean, I like socializing with people, but I'm not like... I'm really quite happy to spend alone time. I enjoy music, both listening and playing it or singing it. I like to travel. Oh, well, that's not about me, is it? I've got an 00:02:00odd sense of humor, but people find me funny. But it's a little off beat. I guess those are the highlights.

Maya Yulin:

Do you want to talk about any of your identities?

David Berky:

Help me understand what that is.

Maya Yulin:

Sure. So, when you think about identity, you could think about your gender, your race, sexual orientation, gender identity. So how do you identify on the racial spectrum? How do you identify on that?

David Berky:

Well, I identify as male and as a gay male. That's pretty much it. I mean, I have been in a heterosexual marriage for quite a long time with three children. It just happened, but I don't feel like that's where my heart is. I mean, I'm 00:03:00not in that kind of a relationship. It just happened.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. You want to tell me more about-

David Berky:

Product of [inaudible 00:03:22] and product of my family situation and just pressure. Internal pressures with a few external pressures, honestly.

Maya Yulin:

Can you tell me more about those internal pressure?

David Berky:

Well, I have no siblings and I grew up in Los Angeles, California, actually Hollywood, or near enough, I should say my parents both worked in Hollywood and in their own business. And grew up in there were Jewish family. I grew up in a 00:04:00Jewish family, although we were quite secular in terms of our absorbance. So I had no real social pressures to... Like religious pressures to be one way or another. And my parents being fairly liberal Jews in Southern California, didn't give me any prejudice back. I mean, there were... This was back in the 1950s and 60s.

I mean, there was a lot of humor around gay people that not the nicest, but we were the butt of jokes, it'd be the feminism typically. But not in a mean way. It was just all they knew. But I think because I came from an extremely small 00:05:00family, I mean, my father had one brother who never had children. I was an only child. My mother had two sisters and there were four children between those other two sisters. So that was the extent of my family. My grandparents were... I didn't really know much about their extended family because they'd come over from Eastern Europe. And I was pretty young when they were gone.

Being part of a Jewish family, there was con and being a part of a small family, I felt a lot of internal pressure to live the conventional life, marry, have children, keep the family name alive, all that sort of thing. So that kind of 00:06:00internal pressure. And I also didn't... My parents both had very high expectations of me and I didn't want to disappoint them. And I always felt like coming out as gay would be disappointment.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. So Moving from California, I know you had a couple of spots in between them, but how long have you-

David Berky:

That was not a straight line.

Maya Yulin:

Oh, it was not a straight line, okay. How long have you lived in Western North Carolina and then what brought you here and what's kept you here?

David Berky:

Okay. That's a long story. But let me... Can I backtrack a little before all that? Okay. So I lived in Southern California, I graduated from high school there and I did a year at UCLA and it was about 1969, '68, '69. And those are 00:07:00the days where... The hippie days and I got into all invested in that. And so the thing was to drop out, do some drug experimentation, dropout, take alternative jobs, hitchhike around the country, that sort of thing. So, I did all that, and my best friend from California had decided he wanted to move to Boston because he just wanted to change. He heard good things about and he wanted to see it at night. I went out for a visit once just to see him. And I thought, yeah. I like this too. And I wanted to move in there.

Stayed there a couple of years, met my ex-wife there. Then I decided I was going 00:08:00to go back to California. So I don't know why I'm in it, it's just the way it was. I still wasn't really in school. So I went back to Southern California lived in a little... I don't know what you'd call it, a studio apart... It was a studio apartment. It's like a little cottage really. Is really tiny. I mean, tiny as in you could sit on the drone and have your feet in the shower.

And just to your left, you could put your hand in the kitchen sink. So, I mean, it was really tiny. But it was maybe 100 yards from the beach. So who cares, right? And the weather there is like pretty friendly. So, I mean, you're outside a lot, really didn't matter. And I wasn't married yet, but I had connected with 00:09:00my ex and she decided she was going to... I already moved back and I was living alone and really enjoying it. And she decided she was going to come out and does it. So she did, and she stayed with me and we got together.

I really hadn't had any kind of relationships, sexual relationships prior to that. And at some point, I mean, I had some work things that went on that I was doing. But at some point I decided I was going to do similar work to what my father had done. And he was... Well, I'm a doctor of audiology. But he had just worked with hearing aids and that didn't at that time require a degree, but 00:10:00audiology did. And I was enjoying that work and I thought, well, I could work with you. He says, "No, not unless you've got a degree and you need to be better than what I did," kind of thing. I was like, okay, well, this is a good time to continue my education. And I didn't really... I wasn't thinking about leaving California, but I wound up moving up to San Francisco.

Maya Yulin:

I'm so sorry. You might be touching the computer.

David Berky:

Oh, I'm sorry.

Maya Yulin:

It's like a little... No, you're good. I just want to make sure it's nice and clear. Continue.

David Berky:

Yeah. So, we wound up, at that point I was together with my future wife and we decided to move up to San Francisco where I'd be in school and she would look for work. And so I spent a year in school there, didn't really care much for the 00:11:00school and then decided to transfer to school back in Boston area. And we ended up at Boston university for undergraduate and university of Connecticut for graduate, which is where I got my master's degree.

At that point, I had had a job offer in Connecticut after graduation, but they called me at the last minute, it was a hospital, a children's hospital. And they said the funding wasn't there for the position after all, but they expected that it might come through, but just in case it didn't, you might want to look for jobs just to cover your bases.

I'd spent a couple of hard years in grad school without any break. So, by that point I was married and my wife and I said, well, we've got a break let's camp. 00:12:00We'd never camp the Appalachians in the Blue Ridge or any of that. I was real interested in the blue Ridge area because I had played bluegrass music back in California, and so it was attractive to me. We started out in Connecticut then we started out in Virginia, went down the Blue Ridge Parkway all the way through that and up in Asheville. And we had our camping tent and stove and all that. And I had a little suitcase with a coat and a suit and a shirt and a tie for interviews.

We got to Asheville and there was an opening here. This was in 1976. There was an opening here, and I was taking a job. It was a one-year position, but 00:13:00might've been more, but it was a one-year position, which was the way my profession worked in those days. It doesn't work like that now. But your first job is called your fellowship year, where you basically please get certified after the end of that year. So you get your master's degree, then you spend a nine months to a year working in a job, then you get your certification and you get like a real job, right? So, I had that position here, at that time it was Tom's rehab now it's Care Partners.

It was a really odd situation because I had a very progressive education in new England, in my field. And I got down here and found things to be rather 00:14:00backwards. And there was some really strange politics in the hospital at that time. Long and the short of it is that, that job ended before my fellowship year ended, when the director of the clinic, basically we fired everybody in the department except for herself. So she fired like 14 people and it was on the news. It was in the... There is a big article in the Citizen Times, and she was certifiable.

She would call the hospital staff every day to come over and check her office for hidden microphones and that sort of thing. She was certifiable. But the hospital administration wouldn't get rid of her because she was in some way 00:15:00related to someone, a big benefactor. And if she was gone, the money would go. And we didn't know any of that till after the fact. So we had been going to the administration and saying, there's some really strange things going on in this department. And they were receptive, they listen, they had all piles and piles of documentation as to the things that were wrong in the department, but the long and the short of it is at the end of the day, she wound up basically firing everybody.

I was left here then without a path to a career, because there were no jobs locally that at that time that I could move to, then stay in my profession. So I made the decision at that point. We made the decision to move back to California, Los Angeles where I knew people. I knew people in my profession and 00:16:00I knew I could get work, which I did immediately. And then I eventually started my practice and the idea was always, because I really loved it here, I was here for about 10 months.

The idea in the back of my mind was always to someday come back when I could. And 14 years later and three kids later, we did. We made the move back as my wife was of the same mind. I mean, she was thinking she would like to be back here as well. So we both moved back and that was in 1992, and we've been here ever since. But she and I were done as of about 1995. So that brings it up to the current time.

Maya Yulin:

That was great. Thank you. Can I circle back on something you mentioned, you talked about in 1969, there was this hippie culture and you were driving all 00:17:00over the country. Can you describe that a little for me in terms of your identity not having come out yet, but how was [inaudible 00:17:14] accepting was that?

David Berky:

How what?

Maya Yulin:

How accepting was that culture of LGBT folks was that a way to help you also begin to...

David Berky:

I still was not at that point dealing with my sexuality. I still down deep knew where my heart was, but had a facade that I figured... I was still hoping that that would just change one day. And of course it didn't, it was always there, but I kept hoping that it would, and then when I had the chance to be in a heterosexual relationship, we were friends first, that worked. And then when it 00:18:00became a sexual relationship it was awkward, but it was okay, we'll do this. And maybe this is how I get cured and get changed.

I even told her that I thought that I might be gay. And she said, "Oh, well, everybody has feelings like that and that's fine." She didn't seem to have an issue with it. Although years later when we actually broke up and she was shocked with what I was saying. She [inaudible 00:18:55] like, where did that come from? Do you remember that conversation we had way, way back? She says, "Yeah." I said, "Well," she goes, "I thought you got over it because you never 00:19:00said anything further about it."

Maya Yulin:

Right. Wow. Can I ask you about your dad? You chose a profession very similar to him. Can you talk a little bit more about your relationship with your dad?

David Berky:

He was someone who did not give approval easily. He had very high standards. If I come home with an A minus he said, "That's good. It could have been like a little higher," but he was a very loving man, but he also was very critical. So, I mean, it's kind of two sides. I mean, as parents they were both wonderful 00:20:00parents in retrospect. But it was difficult growing up in that family at times, just because of the pressure I just felt to perform and succeed.

As an only child all their hopes were invested in me. I was under the microscope all the time. And so that was a lot of our relationship. And I guess at some point I liked the work that I was doing when I was working with him because he hired me on initially just to... I needed something to do, and he needed a little help. So, it was just on the job training. I didn't have a degree or anything like that, but he showed me the ropes about... And I found that I liked the work. And so I thought, well, this is something I could do. So I do.

Maya Yulin:

Okay. Similar to that, do you feel comfortable telling me your coming out story? 00:21:00Your journey maybe?

David Berky:

Well, I think I'm going to start out by saying that I think my first awareness that I was attracted to males, I remember very vividly as having very strong feelings about that as young as about four or five years old. And I spent all my time... Well, not all my time, but I mean, especially once I got into high school fighting that. I mean, because you didn't want to be the gay boy in high school and its not like it is now. I mean, it's somewhat challenging now, but it was... Back in the 50s and 60s, you've heard this before I'm sure. Yeah, it was a different universe. And so, all the talk went along the lines of girlfriends 00:22:00and dating and all of that, which I never felt really comfortable with and I know why I didn't feel comfortable with and I didn't do a lot of it, and that was how that all went.

I just really suppressed all of that. And when I got married it was like, okay, well, this is the new normal, and this kind of works. It's like I have a routine, I have my kids that I love. We have a life, we have friends, we have this, we have that. There seemed to be something missing, but I was never really that aware of what it was. I started hitting 40 and midlife crisis which really 00:23:00was an identity crisis. I started thinking about this and I remember going into counseling and talking to my counselor about that and saying... I brought the topic up for the first time I ever had with any third party, other than when I at first told my wife what my feelings were and she was dismissive of it.

I had a male therapist, and I told him about it and he said, don't be so... He was again dismissive, don't be so hasty. So he didn't really want to explore it very much, I don't think. And so we just focused on... He led me into bouts of depression, and I just put it away again. Then shortly afterwards is when we 00:24:00made the move from Los Angeles east, after 14 years of being in California again and raising family and all that. And so we all packed up and went and that was like, okay. New life, new chapter. And I thought that would energize me.

I got to Asheville, I thought, well, yeah. The opportunity to do some things and to explore some things about me. And I went downtown to the local community theater. And I signed up for a couple of scene study classes for acting classes at ACT. And boy did I have a good time with that? And then they recruited me to 00:25:00audition for shows. And so I wound up doing that, and I found that after a while I was spending almost all my free time doing that, instead of being home with the family and the wife, and I didn't really notice what was happening over there, but at some point she came to me and she says, "This isn't working for me. And I think I want out, I think we need to be separated." And I was crushed.

I really tried to hold on to it as hard as I possibly could and change it, talk her out of it. I had gone to great lengths to create this identity for myself, which wasn't really me, but I didn't want to allow a little crack in there, 00:26:00because I was afraid of what would come in if I pulled out the stops. I didn't know how that would go, if I could deal with that. But it was really clear things weren't going to change on her end. She had found someone else that she wanted to be with. And so there I was alone separated, trying to figure out what's next? What's my next chapter in life? Do I go out and do I start to date again and meet woman and stuff. And all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute. I have a second chance here.

I had hooked up with a counselor at that point. And so we explored that in depth. And I said I really need to find out whether I really am at my core a gay 00:27:00male or what? I mean it's because I don't know who I am and I don't want to repeat the same thing again, if that's what's going to happen. And he was really helpful in putting me in touch with... At that time, there was a very small gay male community in Asheville. It really wasn't always plenty of women. Even back in the 70s, it was a huge lesbian community, but not so much for gay males. It just wasn't there.

There was a small group of gay fathers. These were gay men with children from marriages in the past, heterosexual marriages. And so they had... And they have like monthly get togethers. Now there's like the Asheville supper club you may know about that. And it was a precursor to that. I mean, but it was much 00:28:00smaller. I mean, there were maybe on a really busy night, there might be 15, and that would be that the huge. Usually it's like about eight or nine, you and I wound up experimenting a little bit and finding out yeah, you know what? This is what it is, which really helped me out of my depression over the breakup.

That's basically how I discovered my identity or at least acknowledged that I should say. And then I went through the process of coming out to family and friends, kids. Yeah. I won't ramble unless you... You can interrupt me if you want to focus on a particular area because my mind can go off in 20 different 00:29:00directions when you're talking about a life story.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. No, this is for you. So if you want to go off in a different direction, absolutely feel free. But I was wondering about... You talked about how, when you had your initial conversation with your wife and then the therapist, they were both really dismissive. Can you talk a little bit more about how that made you feel and then your steps moving forward?

David Berky:

Well, my first reaction really was relief. It was like, okay, I fessed up and it wasn't a problem for anybody. So, I can crawl back into my shell and just keep muddying on. And so I wasn't angry with them, but they didn't get the opportunity to go through the discomfort of really figuring it out and saying... 00:30:00Whereas the year after we had separated and I want to... Seeing some of the therapists, he was the first one to say, "Well, let me see who I can put you in touch with so that you can explore this because I think you need to find out." And so that made a huge difference.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. Can you talk about finding this community in Asheville and how that helped you with... Yeah.

David Berky:

Well, it was basically just the fathers group, but the other thing is that at the time that I did that, I also came out to friends and family, and discovered 00:31:00nobody cast me aside, as I was worried about. I have a lot of gay male friends, from singing in the chorus, for example. Who have never had a heterosexual relationship and don't really socialize very much with heterosexual people. But that was never really my life. So even though I didn't identify as heterosexual as straight, I still have friends in that world that I felt were a part of my life and who... So, I didn't really just drop everybody and stay 100% in the gay world.

Maya Yulin:

What about the acting classes? Was that also... Can you talk a little bit about 00:32:00that and why you got involved with that-

David Berky:

Well, I had always loved theater. Yeah. From the time I was a little kid, it's like yeah, we should've known but... Yeah, I had always loved that. And I gave myself permission to have a little bit of fun with it, which before that I was like all work all the time, for many years or raising a family, but it was all about work and responsibility. And now I was in a place where I sold my practice in Southern California.

I didn't have to go back to work immediately. I wound up doing a practice here that did very well, but I mean I took a couple of years before... I took about a year before I decided to explore that again. And when I did, I did it much lower key. There was not the pressure that I felt there. And so I decided I was going 00:33:00to have some fun with some of the things that I'd always looked at and thought I might enjoy. And it was a lot of fun. It was new and it was stuff I found out I could do.

Maya Yulin:

Would you say this was one of your first gay related events or places that you hung out with or is there another experience or is there another-

David Berky:

In terms of the people that I was with that were involved in that, that wasn't particularly gay or gay centered, it was just something that I enjoyed doing that was just outside of the... That just felt true to me, but it wasn't particularly... As many people might think of a theater, oh, well everybody's gay in theater. A community theater really isn't so much like that. There were some yeah, but it's not everything.

Maya Yulin:

Is there what you can remember your first gay related place or event? Can you describe that for me?

David Berky:

Place or event? You mean after I came out?

Maya Yulin:

Either or...

David Berky:

Well, I do remember growing up, my parents would have gay friends sometimes, and I'd always be studying them to see, "What is their life like? It wasn't always that great, which was another reason that kept me from coming out. Like yeah, they're funny. And they're interesting and they're being who they are, but they've got a crappy situation. It's like... Yeah. And then the AIDS epidemic 00:35:00came out and people were coming out and dying and it's like, all that was like yeah, no, I don't know that. But I really didn't experiment with any gay sex at all until after I had separated and started figuring things out. So I was a very late bloomer.

Maya Yulin:

It's all our own timeframe, timeline. Everybody has their own timeline. So how did you... When you moved to Asheville, how did you build this, a support network or a chosen family in Western North Carolina?

David Berky:

Well, in the beginning we joined a temple and there was a small Jewish 00:36:00community. And so we were part of that and made some new friends-

Maya Yulin:

When you say we...

David Berky:

I was married yeah. To my wife. So there was that... But then I also joined at that point men's discussion groups or support groups were becoming a thing. And so I joined a small one and there was a core of about three or four of us that met like once a week. And the guy that facilitated it was the same guy who later became my therapist. And these were not gay men, except for me. But in the beginning, when I first started going to those, I was not in the identity of the gay male and it was much later in the process that I wanted to coming out to them. But they were a big part of my life here as well. So, those two things and 00:37:00of course the theater and those are the main focus points.

Maya Yulin:

And the gay men's chorus.

David Berky:

No, that was later.

Maya Yulin:

That was later?

David Berky:

Yeah.

Maya Yulin:

Can you talk about joining that?

David Berky:

There really wasn't one. I mean, there was, but it wasn't. Yeah, that didn't really get started till about, I want to say '97 or so, and its current form. And it was a couple of years before I joined that because I had never sung with anybody. I didn't. No, that's not true. I spent like a year or so just singing barbershop with the local group.

Maya Yulin:

Oh, that's great.

David Berky:

But that I never felt really comfortable with that because that was very straight. I don't know. It was just a little too clean for me.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. It's a little different than the gay men's chorus.

David Berky:

There is a lot of difference. Yeah. A lot of difference. And it's not like singing in a show in the theater which I did some of as well.

Maya Yulin:

Right. Can you tell me a little bit about how the AIDS epidemic influenced you?

David Berky:

There were some personal touch points I really didn't... Because I wasn't part of that community. I knew it was out there. The only thing that I remember really vividly was the one fellow who had been a roommate of mine and we had never discussed sexuality or anything. At some point he moved to San Francisco 00:39:00and then he came out and this was like way early in the process. I want to say maybe early 70s mid 70s, something like that. And he wound up, he did wound up getting AIDS and dying. And so that hit me hard a little bit. And I was thinking yeah, and I... Because I would always... He was also a very intelligent type, a driven type of person, which I considered myself similar to that in many ways. And I was like, wow, I just stopped thinking, wow. I think I better stay right where I am. So that was probably the most influence it had on me.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. It influenced you to stay, not come out and not continue-

David Berky:

Yeah, there was not a lot of incentive to enter that world in those years.

Maya Yulin:

Great. Can you tell me, how have you been treated when in Asheville when interacting with local public institutions, like the police and healthcare and education, faith communities?

David Berky:

Honestly I really haven't had problem.

Maya Yulin:

Good. That's good to hear.

David Berky:

I mean, in the very beginning, I was really concerned about coming out to strangers and stuff or at work, trying to keep a facade up to my patients that I would see and that sort of thing. But by the end of the time I realized that was really more on me and I really stopped caring.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. Can you talk about those early years of keeping that facade up?

David Berky:

Yeah. As part of professional organizations and we'd have conventions and things and so I always felt it wasn't any kind of an issue until I separated and still kept going to those activities. And at that point it was like yeah. No, I don't really want to talk about my sexuality here with anybody. But then by that time I was already in a relationship with my now husband and he gave me the courage to do a lot of things and the support I should say. I mean, the courage had to come from me, but he gave me his support to seek out what there might be in 00:42:00professional organizations.

I sent out a few feelers to see were there any gay people in these associations? Was there an interest group of any kind. And it turns out that there were a couple of folks and I should've connected with them a little bit. And I came out to a few people, it was a big deal for me. And it was fine, but it was very scary at the time.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. How did it feel finding those interest groups, like building that community within the business?

David Berky:

It was wonderful because I mean, anytime you can be yourself instead of being someone else is a good thing. So whenever I had permission to be who I was, it always felt better.

Maya Yulin:

You mentioned your husband. Can you tell me your story about how you two met and built your life together in Asheville?

David Berky:

Yeah. So, back in nine... Let's see, my wife and I split up the '95. I moved out 00:43:00and got a house here in west Asheville. And that's when I was in therapy and exploring all this and connecting with the father's group and all that, on the same time, it was like well, I'm not sure how I go about meeting people and all of that. And the online world was very new, but there were, at that time, not chat rooms so much as bulletin boards, which were like electronic pen pals. So, people would post stuff on the bulletin boards a little bit about them and just be looking for someone to correspond with. So I found this fellow and he lived in Ohio.

He had been married for something like 30 some years, was performing in a lot of 00:44:00theaters, like to sing, like to cook, which I like to cook. And so we had a lot to... He had three children, I have three children. And so we started writing and talking to each other, and we wrote all kinds of letters back and forth, that we... It was basically an email correspondence. And I never actually saw him until quite a bit later, when we finally figured out that we wanted to meet. In the beginning, it was just someone that I could share myself with. And I wasn't in the beginning looking for a relationship with him and nor was he, but it just developed that way as things progressed.

I realized that he knew me better than just about anybody else. So, and vice versa. I stalked him a little bit, he was performing in theater in a production 00:45:00up in Ohio. And I just called him one day I said, "I'm coming up that way. I'd like to see you in your show, I thought it'd be good idea for us to meet." He's a little, okay. He was still married at the time. I was no longer married.

He arranged for there to be a comp ticket for me, because he got comp tickets for what he was doing, but the people that arranged for the tickets figured that... It was a friend of his, you might as well sit him with the rest of his people. So, his then wife was on my left and his youngest daughter was on my right. Awkward.

Maya Yulin:

Oh my goodness.

David Berky:

Anyway, so we had a couple more meetings and at some point he came out to his wife and I mean, they had been living very separate lives for a long time. They had separate bedrooms and really he'd been playing around with boyfriends and whatnot. I'm not even boyfriends, but just whatever, for quite a long time. I mean, he's a good deal older than I am too. Which I really wasn't aware of at the time, but certainly I am now.

Anyway, once he told his wife, she pretty much said, "Yeah, I get out." And then she said, no, you can stay. You can stay, you can have your boyfriends just 00:47:00don't leave, but he's no, he's we really need to go. And so he called me up, said, "I want to come down to Asheville for visit," he'd never been. And he came down and never left. So, that's pretty much the way it was.

Maya Yulin:

That's great. Is he also part of the chorus games?

David Berky:

Not anymore. He's 87 now and he's got a lot of mobility challenges and health challenges. So yeah. I feel it's a good thing when I can even get them out of the house for a short walk which is... And I'm mean short, very short.

Maya Yulin:

Right.

David Berky:

Yeah. So, it's a different life than it was.

Maya Yulin:

That's such a sweet story though. Thank you for sharing that. That's great.

David Berky:

And he was always a lot more flamboyant belongings, which I enjoyed because I 00:48:00just didn't feel like that was who I was, but I was always very attracted to that.

Maya Yulin:

How was living in Asheville? How did you navigate living in Asheville as a gay couple?

David Berky:

Well, I tried to hide it in the very beginning and after about a couple of months of that, he said, look, he says, I didn't leave everything to come down here and go into hiding. And I said, "Yeah, you're right," and so I just sucked it up and said, all right, I'm just going to be who I am and let the chips fall where they may, and everything was fine. My kids met him and they were still in school, in high school for the most part for middle school. And the arrangement 00:49:00I had with my ex was that they would go to both houses. They would change. So sometimes we have them, sometimes they had them.

We had to be really just open about everything. The kids were fine about the coming out process though. This is after I had already met Jack my husband and I knew he was coming down. I can't remember. Yeah. I think, yeah... He was going to come down here, but he hadn't yet. And I thought, well, before he gets here, I really need to deal with my family, prepare them for what's happening. And so I called my ex had said... By that time I had told her, but not the kids. And 00:50:00she says, "Oh, would you like help the kids when you do that?" And I said, "That'll be really great."

She and the kids came over to my house and I was really nervous about this, about telling them what I had to tell them. And I was like, well, I padded it a lot. Something, I really got. It's really important. And I want you to lean on him, I'm going on and on and on. And they're getting Looks that are more like more and more like, oh my God, what is this? And I finally said, "The thing is I'm gay." And they all relaxed. And my youngest daughter said, "Oh, thank God. I thought you were really sick or something."

Maya Yulin:

That's a great response.

David Berky:

Yeah. So they were, I'm old. They weren't raised with any kind of prejudice. I mean, I've heard plenty of stories of people who transmitted the homophobia to their kids. I mean, my husband did, his kids are older than my kids. And he spent a long time being playing part of homophobic male, while secretly having his other life. And he's not on really good terms with his family. So it was a real contrast, but also different generation and different history because they also had a lot of religion going on and...

Maya Yulin:

That must be hard.

David Berky:

Yeah.

Maya Yulin:

I'm wondering if you could place yourself for me when amend... Do you remember amendment 1 at past? Can you talk to me about-

David Berky:

Yeah. The bathroom bill.

Maya Yulin:

Well, there was the bathroom bill, but then also in 2012, the amendment 1 about gay marriage passed in North Carolina. Do you remember that?

David Berky:

Yeah.

Maya Yulin:

Can you place yourself for me with amendment 1 and then also potentially the bathroom bills. We want to talk about that as well, your feelings and thoughts and where you are at.

David Berky:

Yeah. The bathroom bill, I have my numbers mixed up, but yeah. So the bathroom bill was just like, oh God, geez, these guys can't be serious. That was later. Right?

Maya Yulin:

Yeah.

David Berky:

Yeah. When that happened, that was obviously a game changer because we had talked about possibly getting married, but I didn't really feel like I want it to be out of state and not do in the community where I live and the center of my 00:53:00life. And so when that changed, yeah it changed a lot because that's when we made the decision to go ahead and marry. So it was a few months after that, that we married.

Maya Yulin:

After gay marriage was legalized?

David Berky:

In North Carolina. Yeah.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah.

David Berky:

Yeah, it was very important.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. And then I was actually... Amendment 1 actually said, anti-gay marriage. That was in 2012, 2015 was legalizing gay marriage.

David Berky:

Yeah. I didn't pay much attention to that because at that point, my only options were to go out of state. So, yeah.

Maya Yulin:

Can you talk to me about your wedding?

David Berky:

Yeah. Well, we did it on back deck, and my husband had spent... He was in the 00:54:00army when he was very young and had spent during the Korean war. But he had spent the most of the time in Honolulu. And so he loved all things Hawaiian and I did too. We've traveled there several times and I always really loved it. So we decided to do a luau themed wedding. And that's what we did. So we decorated up the deck and we had Hawaiian type food and music and 50 friends, family. Because any more than that I don't think the deck would have supported. I mean, it was modest, but it was a lot of fun.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. Did you feel comfortable inviting everybody, your friends and family?

David Berky:

Well, we had to go over the guest list a few times just to keep it 50 or less, just for logistics. We really didn't want to do a hall. We didn't want huge because we felt really comfortable in our own home. And so we had neighbors and friends and family.

Maya Yulin:

I love weddings. Sorry, go ahead.

David Berky:

That's it.

Maya Yulin:

Awesome. I have another question about, did you know of or experienced any or have experience with segregation within the LGBT community based on race or gender or class or anything else?

David Berky:

I mean, I know that it exists, personal experience with it? Not so much now.

Maya Yulin:

Good. That's good.

David Berky:

I mean, I was a lot older, so it's just a different world when you're... At that time, I was like late 40s, 50s, 60s, yeah. It's different than when you're young and trying looking for relationships. And I mean, we've been in this relationship for 25 years now. So yeah, I just hadn't really experienced much of it. I mean, occasionally, I will say occasionally when we would travel, I tended 00:57:00never to see any discrimination or any ill treatment or prejudice as just the way I'm built.

My husband is always very suspicious that he's being singled out for being gay and that, "Oh, you see that person, see how they're looking at us, they're homophobic," That kind of thing. So it's almost, almost a little paranoid, but probably it's somewhere in between because I'm probably somewhat naive and he's probably a little overcautious, so I'm sure some of the time he was right. But I never wanted to acknowledge it just because I always like to think the best of people, it's kind of on the way I'm built.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. That makes sense. So when you would walk around Asheville, he would point 00:58:00people out or you would, and you wouldn't notice people.

David Berky:

Occasionally. Yeah.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah.

David Berky:

Most of the time I thought it was just him being Jack. He spent many years looking over his shoulder, because he was having relationships outside of his marriage. So yeah. He's and he was always looking.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah, that makes sense.

David Berky:

I didn't until I was free to do it. And then I did and it was fine. So I never had to worry about who was looking funny at me or I just never thought about it.

Maya Yulin:

Sorry. Can you think of other members of the community that we should invite for an interview?

David Berky:

I imagine that you probably got my name from Bush?

Maya Yulin:

I assume so, I got passed your name from Amanda and it was oftentimes what happens is you can either sign yourself up or you can find somebody else up as I think this person will be good.

David Berky:

I imagine that most of the gay men's chorus is on your radar for this?

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. I think so.

David Berky:

That would be primarily where that part of my life is.

Maya Yulin:

[inaudible 00:59:56].

David Berky:

I'm trying to think of... I mean, I'd have to... Let me just write that down. I 01:00:00can send you some names once I think of them.

Maya Yulin:

I can send you the form that you could fill out that gives us their either phone or email address, we could contact them. That'd be great.

David Berky:

You're not necessarily looking for... What's the demographic exactly?

Maya Yulin:

We're looking for LGBTQ southerners. So folks who've spent time in the south, whether that's growing up or come here later in life. Just trying to get that specific perspective.

David Berky:

Do they need to be based currently in Asheville or no?

Maya Yulin:

No, I don't think so.

David Berky:

Okay.

Maya Yulin:

At this point, because we can do Zoom interviews.

David Berky:

Yeah. I mean, I can probably find a few people in my age demographic that'd be great.

Maya Yulin:

That'd be great. Yeah. I'll send you the link after this, in the follow-up email.

David Berky:

I have a bunch of neighbors, but they're primarily women but I'm trying to think how entrenched they are in the south. Like how long they've been here. My one next door neighbor, she's only been here maybe a year and a half, something like that.

Maya Yulin:

I don't know. I can talk to Amanda, but I think that would be whoever would be interested in talking, it would be an interesting perspective like you can compare.

David Berky:

[crosstalk 01:01:41] she's young, she's like early 30s and then there's another couple down the street from me who... You say you live in Asheville?

Maya Yulin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Berky:

Yeah. So, do you know the auditorium? Odd auditorium in west Asheville?

Maya Yulin:

No, I don't. I live in east Asheville, so that's a little further away for me.

David Berky:

Okay. Well, anyway, they own and operate that. It's a very kinky place.

Maya Yulin:

That's great. Do you go there a lot?

David Berky:

I haven't, but I mean, there are... I almost don't need to because they're interesting enough as neighbors. Every Halloween they do this immersive multimedia thing in their front yard and it's different theme every year. It's like one really waits to see what... I don't know how much, they must spend a fortune on this every year, but it's always fascinating and fantastic.

Maya Yulin:

That's great. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, whoever might be interested or happy to talk to whoever as long as they... Even allies. I guess I learned that recently.

David Berky:

Okay. Yeah. I can think of one of them. The one person I'm thinking of that would be like an ally. The only thing is, interview might be difficult because she's very hard of hearing.

Maya Yulin:

Okay.

David Berky:

And so she might find this format very difficult.

Maya Yulin:

Yeah. We have a lot of folks we're interviewing, so we might not get to her until we could do more in-person interviews. If that's easier. We can work with her on that though. No problem.

David Berky:

Okay.

Maya Yulin:

Awesome.

David Berky:

She has a twin sister as well, so it would also be...

Maya Yulin:

Okay. That'd be great. Yeah. Interesting perspective. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that maybe I missed asking a question or...

David Berky:

I don't know. I mean, it's really hard to think about... You're talking about a life and it has so many lives within it you live, and I'm sure I'm leaving out all kinds of things, but none that occurs to me immediately.

Maya Yulin:

Well, we can always do this again and we can just add to your interview. So let me know. Well, if there's nothing else, I'm going to pause the recording.

David Berky:

Okay.

Maya Yulin:

[inaudible 01:04:35]. Yeah. See.