Oral History with Dean Paulk (2022)

Caiden Costantino:

All right, so today is January 27th, 2022. My name is Caiden Costantino and I'm talking with Dean Paulk, who was born in 1983, in Germany on a military base. Their preferred pronouns are he/they. He has been living in Asheville for two years. And let us begin. So how would you like to describe yourself?

Dean Paulk:

So I'll go with the sexuality and gender stuff first. I am a trans man. I'm technically pansexual and homo-romantic. So I'm attracted to anyone really, not anyone, but attracted to people of all genders, but I really want to be in a relationship with men. I think that's it for identity-wise, but otherwise, I'm 00:01:00basically, an open book. I love people. I love meeting new people and connecting with them. I work as the assistant director for Intercultural Affairs, currently at Western Carolina University. And part of my job is to coordinate Safe Zone, which is our LGBTQ ally training, and as well as working with the LGBTQ community on campus with programming and stuff like that. Also, part of my job is to work with sexual assault and awareness, and sexual violence awareness. As well as on programming surrounding diversity and inclusion in general.

Caiden Costantino:

So can you go into a little more detail about what exactly your interaction with Safe Zone training and LGBTQ, what that looks like on campus?

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, so I coordinate the Safe Zone program. So our Safe Zone on campus at Western is a two part, four-hour total training. So it's two, two hours. We 00:02:00include information like talking about what the difference between sex and gender is, talking about sexuality and romantic orientation. We talk about some more terminology. We watch a couple videos in part one. And in part two we actually go into and have usually a panel of students that talk about their experiences, as well as some scenarios that people can work through. So it gives them the opportunity to build knowledge and also skills. So at the end of it, they should feel comfortable working with or talking with members of the LGBTQ community on campus, and feel comfortable being a support system for that.

Dean Paulk:

Of course, they come out of it not knowing everything. We don't want to say that, "You'll know everything at the end." I don't know everything, and I get paid to do it right. But it just gives them information and gives them a base of 00:03:00knowledge for them to be able to interact more efficiently and appropriately with the LGBTQ community. So some of the stuff that I do with the LGBTQ community, I do programming. So I help out with Pride Week that's happened on campus before. I oversee, I'm one of the advisors for SAGA, our Sexuality and Gender Alliance on campus.

Dean Paulk:

And I think that's about it really. Mostly just supporting students, supporting the clubs and organizations. Doing programming here and there as well as, I'm also in charge of the big drag show that happens in March, or is happening in March this year anyway. And the last time we had the drag show, we had a thousand people in attendance. It was in the Ramsey Center, which holds thousands of people. So it was really successful. So we're excited to see what 00:04:00happens this year.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, that's really cool. When you organize some of these things, who do you get in contact with? How do you set it up?

Dean Paulk:

So my main contact, so we have a LGBTQ working group on campus, and I oversee that as well. But that's a group of faculty and staff who get together to talk about LGBTQ concerns on campus. We worked on the Preferred Name Policy that is now a part of campus. So students can change their names and update them pretty easily. It's just you go through, you search for it and My WCU, and then it pops up and you click on a form, and you just put your information in. So we had a hand in that. We're also working on things like getting pronouns as an option for students to be able to add in. Pronouns are already on Canvas. We didn't have anything to do with that, but we're involved in various things like that, and keeping up to date with what's going on, on campus.

Dean Paulk:

And making sure that it's a safe and welcoming environment for LGBTQ people, whether that's faculty, staff, or students. So that's mostly what we do there. I also get in contact with SAGA quite regularly, because I want the voice of the 00:05:00students to be represented as well. And want to make sure that any programming I do, is relevant to students and something that they're interested in. And also something that SAGA is willing to promote. Just to make sure that we're getting the information out to students, and they're feeling comfortable with it, and they really want to attend.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. That's so cool.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah,

Caiden Costantino:

You do a lot of stuff on campus then.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, I try to. I try to stay busy.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah. So let's maybe change gears little. Let's talk about you. How would you describe your beginnings?

Dean Paulk:

Right. So my parents were both in the military, which is how I ended up in Germany. We moved back to the States when I was a month old, and moved to North 00:06:00Carolina. So that's where I've been since then. I'm just hanging out in North Carolina. I went to school in Sanford, North Carolina, out near Fayetteville in Fort Bragg, because we ended up at Fort Bragg when we moved over, because that's where my dad was working at the time. I wasn't out about anything at that point in high school or middle school. It wasn't until I graduated college that I came out.

Dean Paulk:

But I had been thinking, during college there were some things that I was exposed to and learned about. I learned a lot about the trans community during that time in college. And at that time, I was identifying as bisexual, but wasn't really out about it, because I was with a partner, a male partner at the time. So we were living, because I hadn't transitioned yet, so we were living as 00:07:00and perceived as a straight couple. I remember that after we graduated from college, I had asked him and my mom, "What would you say if I said I was a boy?" And they both laughed at me and said, "That's not possible. I don't see that at all."

Dean Paulk:

To be fair to them a little bit, I was wearing a lot of pink, and a lot of frilly stuff at the time. Just because I do like some women's clothing, and I do like some things that are outside of what you would expect for a male, or man-identified person. I like to paint my nails. I like makeup and stuff like that. So that's what made it difficult for me to come to the decision of my own identity, because I was like, "Well, I can't be a man because I like nail polish," or, "I can't be a man because I like wearing skirts on occasion." Instead of thinking that there are CIS men out there that do these same things, 00:08:00I was just thinking, "Oh that can't be true for me, because you have to be hypermasculine to be trans." So it still goes on today, this stereotype. And it's pushed onto the community sometimes that you have to just be hypermasculine in order to be trans, or hyper-feminine if you want to be a trans woman.

Dean Paulk:

So I buried that down for seven years at that point, because I didn't get a good reaction. I came out as bisexual. Basically I just put it on MySpace, back in the MySpace-days, and that's how I came out. I just put it in my profile. And my mom noticed and she goes, "Oh yeah, I always knew you were gay and stuff like that." So she said she's known since I was a kid. I remember one instance where I was talking with my dad and he said, "Your mom said one of y'all is gay." And I'm like, "It's me, isn't it?" And he's like, "I'm not going to tell you." And I'm like, "It's me. I know it's me." And that was just a funny reaction, because at the time I wasn't out, I wasn't ready to be out. But I knew it was me, because I liked purple, and purple's a queer color according to my mom, and 00:09:00stuff like that. So those kinds of things.

Dean Paulk:

And then later on I divorced my ex-husband. So that was the same partner that I had when I graduated from college, because it just didn't work out. Then I ended up in a relationship with an ex who was very abusive physically, and mentally and emotionally, and he was a trans man. So I at the time was identifying as non-binary. I still do, and I forgot to mention that in my identity part, more on the masculine side, but non-binary as well. And he told me that that meant that I was like an imaginary fairy, or something like that, he didn't believe in non-binary.

Dean Paulk:

And so we split up after a while. We were together for about a year and a half. And then after that I married another person. The person, at the time she 00:10:00identified as male, but she transitioned. So the conversation that we had when that all started, when her transition started, was that I had asked her how she would feel if I said I was trans. And she goes, "Well," and we watched a video. And then at the end of the video, she says, "I think I'm trans." So what I did, was I put off my transition for a year to give her time to transition, because I'm always serving others and not myself first right. Because I didn't want us to do it at the same time, so it didn't look like it was some orchestrated thing or whatever, because you know how people talk about things, and think about things.

Dean Paulk:

But yeah, so I waited and let her transition, and then I transitioned. Later, came to find out that I just wasn't interested in a relationship with a woman. 00:11:00So our relationship ended, and then I started transitioning towards the end of our relationship. Then afterwards, that's when I really started my transition, because I was supporting both of us on my salary at that time. And then when we split up, I was now supporting just myself. So I had a little bit of extra money to play around with.

Dean Paulk:

So I had the ability to save up for top surgery. I had the ability to start hormones, I had the ability to do all these things that I hadn't been able to before, change my name and all that kind of stuff. So that stuff all happened after that relationship was over. So yeah, I did all that stuff. And then now here I am today, living my best life. I'm with a new partner now, who identifies as gender fluid, and he is actually a drag queen. So I met him through drag, through that big drag show that I was talking about earlier that happened in 2019. So we met through that, and yeah, that's where I'm at today.

Caiden Costantino:

You've come a long way.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, for sure.

Caiden Costantino:

I'm glad to have you.

Dean Paulk:

Thank you.

Caiden Costantino:

I was curious because I've been through something similar myself, but the difference between the trans man and non-binary, how did you come to discover that about yourself?

Dean Paulk:

Right, so that was a difficult one because I had identified as non-binary because I was like, "Well, I don't really fit into masculine stuff. I don't really fit into feminine stuff." So I was like, "I have to be somewhere in the middle, right?" So later on, I realized that I can be somewhere in the middle and also appear on the more masculine side, and go on hormone therapy and stuff like that. So it was a really tricky process for me. I remember always thinking as a kid that there was something wrong with me. I didn't know who I really was. And then later on as I kept growing and developing, I felt the same way. I had always thought that my life would end before the age of 30, or around the age of 00:13:0030. And that's around the time that I started transitioning, was 30.

Dean Paulk:

So for me it was like I knew something was coming, but it ended up a little bit different than I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to die or something. But in a way, I guess, the person I was pretending to be was no longer in existence, but the person that I really was, was. So it was like a transformation in a way. But yeah, I think that it's because I want to appear masculine, I want to have a beard, I want to have body hair, I want to have a lower voice and stuff like that. But I also still want to wear things that are associated with women or femininity. So that's where I get the non-binary side of things for me. Or gender nonconforming, but more non-binary, because I feel it gender-wise, as opposed to just presentation-wise. I don't know if that makes 00:14:00any sense at all?

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, I think it does make sense. I had it in my mind ... So when you were growing up and going through all of this, how did you feel like you had any support group or not when you were growing up and going through college and high school?

Dean Paulk:

So my mom's a lesbian, and so is her mom, or was her mom, she's passed away. So it runs my family, is the joke. I always say I'm third generation queer. So my mom was supportive about the sexuality thing. So I knew that it would be fine if I came out and stuff like that. I knew that she wouldn't disown me, or cause any problems, or be upset, or mad, or angry. I wasn't sure about my dad. We don't talk, we don't have a relationship. But basically he has said that it doesn't matter that he loves me because I'm his kid, so that's good at least. So I found 00:15:00that out.

Dean Paulk:

But yeah, my sister's fairly supportive. I would say that there's some stuff she doesn't know, but that's really a lot of people. But she's supportive. Extended family, not so supportive. We don't talk with them anymore, just because they haven't been supportive in a lot of ways. So my support system is family. And I have some really great friends now. I would say when I was going through that, I had a couple good friends. My best friend in high school is also somewhere LGBTQ-identified and she's always been great. But other than that, I didn't really have any close friends that were part of the LGBTQ community, that I could really feel supported by. Most of my friends were straight and CIS-gender, 00:16:00because I thought I was at the time, but most of them were. So I didn't really have a good support system as far as friends go.

Dean Paulk:

So I didn't have anyone that I could talk to about these things for me. So I found YouTube videos, that's where I started my journey as far as realizing that I was trans. And yeah, just watched as many videos as I could find, didn't care who they were, just wanted to see what the transition looked like and stuff like that. I think I even did a presentation in college about the trans community, which is why I'd done research because I was a sociology major. So yeah, it's been interesting. But I would say right now I have a really great support system. And the people, when I came out the second time, they were really supportive and I had built that supportive community at that point. So through my spiritual community, through my friends, most of which I've met through the spiritual community. So it's been great that way.

Caiden Costantino:

Are you okay with sharing what spiritual community that is?

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, I'm Pagan. Druid specifically. So I'm a part of a pagan temple in Sylva, and it's been really really great. I joined in 2008, and I've made so many great friends and family through that, friends that I consider family, and stuff like that. And yeah, it's been great for sure.

Caiden Costantino:

Oh, that's really cool.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah.

Caiden Costantino:

So when you were going through all this. Did your family live in one central area? Did you move around a little bit?

Dean Paulk:

My family, right now, well, we grew up and stayed in Sanford for a while, or near Sanford. And then when I graduated high school and went to college, my mom and her partner moved around a little bit, mostly North Carolina. They went to Florida at one point, and came back, but they moved around a little bit. Right 00:18:00now my mom and my sister, who are the family members that I talk to, they live towards the east coast of North Carolina. So about a five and a half hour drive from here in Snow Hill, North Carolina. Very small town. But yeah, my sister has three kids and all this kind of stuff. So I don't get to see them as often as I'd like, but at least we have Zoom and stuff like that, so we can at least see each other. But yeah, that's where they're living right now.

Caiden Costantino:

That's cool. When you think about everything that you've gone through so far, what's one memory that really sticks out to you, maybe if it's your favorite, or maybe your most impactful?

Dean Paulk:

Mm-hmm. That is a very good question. I think the most impactful memory I've 00:19:00ever had was when I first came out as trans to someone, a member of the spiritual community, a friend of mine. And the first thing she said was, "I see it, I see you." So that was the first time anyone had ever said that to me, and the first time that I had ever had anyone who verified the way I was feeling. As opposed to people who were just trying to tell me, "Oh, that doesn't exist," or, "Oh you're not." So that really meant a lot to me, having someone say, "I see that, I understand that, and I'm happy for you," and stuff like that. So that was a really big impactful moment for me.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. How long ago was that?

Dean Paulk:

So that was when I first started transitioning. So it was around the age of 30, so 2013, somewhere around there.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, you hear all these stories about really young people who always knew, but I'm assuming that doesn't seem to be your experience, at least with the trans part?

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, I didn't always know. As a kid, looking back, I can see that my biggest problem was that I always felt like I was part of the LGBTQ community, that I was queer in some way, but it never made sense to me, because I wasn't really as attracted to women as I was men. So I was like, "Why do I like boys if I'm gay?" Because I thought I was a female at the time, woman, or a girl, I guess. So that was the biggest concern for me, and biggest confusion, "Why do I like gay boys more than I like straight boys?" It made no sense. But yeah, I forgot the question, but I think [inaudible 00:20:48]-

Caiden Costantino:

It was just conversational.

Dean Paulk:

Oh, okay.

Caiden Costantino:

Just share your experience kind of thing, which is really what this is. Feel free to go whatever direction you want.

Dean Paulk:

Okay, yeah. But yeah, that was where my confusion was lying when I was a kid. I think that it was interesting to try to piece all that stuff together, and that's why it took me so long. And there aren't a whole lot of, all those YouTube videos right, there are a lot of really hyper-masculine men. I'm sure it's a little bit better nowadays, but back then it was all, "Oh, you have to be into sports, you have to only want to wear men's clothes. You have to want to go out, you have to have always hung out with the guys when you were growing up."

Dean Paulk:

And I remember things like when we used to play with my sister, I'd always want to be the girl character. I don't know if that's because I was trying to bury that deep down inside, or if that was because I just like the girl characters better because I'm gay, and that's a traditional kind of thing. So yeah, I have 00:22:00no idea what all that was about, but those kinds of things didn't give me a clue back then. But yeah, it wasn't until later that I realized for sure.

Caiden Costantino:

When you look back, is there anything that sticks out and be like, "Oh, I should have known by then," or, that's a really telltale sign?

Dean Paulk:

So looking back, I think that the fact that, let's see. I had something and I lost it. But there's a picture of me as a kid up on a, we're going on a slide with my cousins and my sister. So we're up on the stairs, and it's this big slide, and so we're all up on the stairs. And there's this picture of me, and I'm just standing there with a hand on my hip, and my other hand's like this, the limp wrist kind of thing. And if I didn't know then, I know now looking back. That, "Hey, that kid isn't straight." Things like that. It's one of those, 00:23:00I saw a meme on the internet once. It was like, "How did you know you were gay as a kid?" And people were sharing pictures and I'm like, "This picture exactly is it." And I always had short hair as a kid, not necessarily by choice, but I always had really thick, coarse hair.

Dean Paulk:

I don't have as much now, but it's, my mom didn't know how to take care of it as well. So she always tried thinning shears, but she used them to the point where she cut off my hair as opposed to just thinning it. So I had a mullet for a while, but it was the '80s. And I had really short hair for a while too. I always felt more comfortable in short hair, to be honest. I've tried to grow it out several times, and never really stuck. But even before I came out as trans, I was always more comfortable with short hair, and just little things like that.

Dean Paulk:

Not feeling as comfortable in dresses and skirts as I felt like I should. Even though occasionally, I have a dress, I just don't wear it. So I still don't really wear dresses now, or skirts, but I felt like they were less comfortable than I wanted them to be. I just didn't feel as myself in them, I guess. I know growing up I liked both Disney princesses and Ninja Turtles, so I had both on those side of things. My favorite ninja turtle was Leonardo, because he was the best. But yeah, just little things like that, looking back that I didn't see then, but I can see now. But then there's also still that feminine side of me that I can see, and that's why I was just so confused.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, definitely, so. So why Asheville?

Dean Paulk:

Why Asheville? So I came here to Western, because it was the furthest-away school that was still in state, that had the degree I was looking for at the time, which was graphic design. I changed my major a couple times, but that's why I ended up here. So when I was working on that big drag show in 2019, I'm met my current fianc. He lived in Asheville, and he doesn't drive. I didn't drive at the time either, so that made it tricky. But I ended up getting my license and I got a car. So I was driving out there to visit a lot.

Dean Paulk:

And so I was like, "I'm just going to move to Asheville." And we moved in the middle, the very beginning of COVID. So I was working from home most of the time at that time. So it worked out. I was only going in the office once a week, and it wasn't that bad. But yeah, now the commute isn't my favorite, but it's definitely, I love Asheville. There's just so much to do, so much to get into. 00:26:00I'm vegan, so there are lots of great restaurants that I can eat at. There's some good ones here in Sylva too, but just so many options and so many opportunities that are kinda out there.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. So what made you want to stay working here but living in Asheville?

Dean Paulk:

I love my job here. And, well, I don't know, I could say this is off the record, but I just accepted a job at A-B Tech, so I will be working in Asheville. I've been looking for something a little bit closer to home and stuff like that. Although I love my job here, I think it's time to move on, and be closer and save some money. Because gas is expensive, but so I've stayed here because I just love my job, and I love working here, and haven't found a better 00:27:00opportunity, or hadn't found a better opportunity yet.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. How'd you come into this job?

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, so I started at Western as an admin. So I worked in the department of Global Management and Strategy, which is under the College of Business. So I worked there for a few years. I had moved to Asheville with the ex of mine who transitioned, because she wanted to be somewhere where she didn't know anyone for her transition, in order to feel more comfortable and stuff like that. So we moved there, we ended up moving back, because I never found a job. And she at the time wasn't willing to work, because she felt like she would have a hard time finding a job and stuff like that. So we moved back, and then I moved into a position at the career center here on campus as the admin.

Dean Paulk:

Had a really great supervisor who was great about career progression and stuff 00:28:00like that with her employees. So what she did, was she sat down and had conversations with me about what my goals were, what I wanted to do. I ended up being promoted into an internship coordinator role, and then I started my Master's degree here at Western in Higher Education Student Affairs. Once I finished that, this position was open, and so I applied for it, because I'm really interested in Diversity And Inclusion, really interested in working with the Safe Zone program and LGBTQ community and stuff like that. So I felt like it was a great position for me, so I applied and I got it. But yeah, that's how my career progressed over time.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. Well, so what's your job title here?

Dean Paulk:

I'm the Assistant Director

Caiden Costantino:

Okay. Of?

Dean Paulk:

Intercultural Affairs.

Caiden Costantino:

Intercultural Affairs? Yeah. And when you say that you moved back, where is back?

Dean Paulk:

Moved actually, to Sylva. Okay. Stayed with my sister, not the sister I was talking about that lives up the coast. But my sister, we've adopted each other through the spiritual community. And lived with her for a little while, or I 00:29:00think it was over a year actually, and then moved, where did we move after that? Cullowhee. So we were back in Cullowhee, but yeah, so that's where back was.

Caiden Costantino:

I just wanted to make sure. Let's see. Do-do-do ... Have you had the opportunity to participate in maybe some Civil Rights movements or anything? Any big events? I know you talked about the drag show in 2019. We can start there if you'd like.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, so that drag show has grown. It started off as a, so SAGA, or previous iterations of SAGA, because they've changed their name a few times, used to do an amateur drag show and a professional drag show. So they would do one each semester. So the amateur drag show would be students that were interested in 00:30:00performing, and the professional drag show would be local performers. So they started off there. It ended up becoming a bigger thing with a headliner from RuPaul's Drag Race, and Campus Activities took that over. And they were working in conjunction with us in Intercultural Affairs. Because I am currently in charge of the local performers, and they're in charge of the headliner, and a lot of the organizational stuff, and stuff like that. I'm also in charge of student performers. So we have a couple, we're doing some tryouts soon. So we'll have some student performers there, as well as the local performers, and the big headliner.

Dean Paulk:

But I think drag is a really, it's always been a part of the community, and it's always been a statement. So it gets you thinking about gender and gender 00:31:00identity, and gender presentation. And there's a lot of drag that isn't strictly drag queens or drag kings, like that gender-fuck kind of drag. It's really great, and one of my favorites. Just because I love seeing people play with gender and play with presentation. And seeing them perform it, makes it a cool thing that other people can watch. One of my favorite things is always seeing children at drag shows, because their parents are exposing them to different people in different parts of the LGBTQ community, whether they are or not. It just gives them some exposure, and lets them learn more, and see more. So they might not end up as one of those people that says, "I just don't know anybody that's LGBTQ, so I don't have positive feelings about them." So hopefully those kind of parents are awakening their children to learning more about the community, and being more comfortable with people within the community.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. Would you say that's probably part of why you do what you do? To kind of inform?

Dean Paulk:

Yeah, I think that there's a lot of information out there that is incorrect. There's a lot of people that don't have any information, and so they feel negatively. They're like, "Well, I don't know anybody, and it's something weird. It's foreign to me, so I just don't like it." I think getting information out there and educating people, not in the, "People need to be educated," way, but just getting them information and helping them to learn more, is really beneficial. Because it can really help people learn, and change, and grow. And say, "Hey, I know someone who is part of the LGBTQ community and they're pretty cool. They're a person just like me." Which is the biggest thing we really want to get across. We all clean toilets. We all have families of some sort, whether that's fur babies, or whether that's children, or spouses, or anything like 00:33:00that. Or whether it's just family in general.

Dean Paulk:

But yeah, it's just getting across that information, and trying to be a point of contact. And part of my job, to me at least, is being very out about who I am. So I have this rainbow lanyard that I have my keys on, that sticks out of my pocket. I'll regularly, I have a shirt that's all rainbow. I have shirts that say, "Pride," and stuff on them, that I'll wear to work on Fridays, and stuff like that. But I feel like it's very important for me to be out, because it shows students in particular that you can be successful and out. That you can be who you are, and still be successful in a position.

Dean Paulk:

One of my favorite things that I've ever had happen to me, is when I worked in 00:34:00the career center. So I have tattoos and piercings, a lot of them. And I remember talking with the student, I think it was during Cat Camp. And the student was crying, saying basically that it really meant a lot to them to see someone with piercings and tattoos in a professional job. That they thought, they had been told by multiple people that having piercings and tattoos meant you couldn't have a job, meant you couldn't do anything professional. You'd have to work at a job you didn't love, or didn't like, and you wouldn't have a choice in that position.

Dean Paulk:

So things like that, and hearing people say that, "This means a lot to me." To see someone who is a certain way, or dresses a certain way, or identifies a certain way, in a professional position really gives them hope that they can be in a professional position someday. And those kinds of interactions have always meant really a lot to me.

Caiden Costantino:

That's good. You need to answer that?

Dean Paulk:

No.

Caiden Costantino:

Okay. Just making sure. Oh, I had a question, where did it go? Oh, do you or have you experienced discrimination or anything of that sort?

Dean Paulk:

I've been very fortunate in the fact that I haven't. So the only things that I've experienced have been those instances with people who said, "Oh, I just don't see you as a male, or as a man." But yeah, no, I've been really lucky. There was one time though where we were at the bowling alley in Sylva years ago, with a group of queer friends of mine. We were bowling, obviously, as we were in a bowling alley. And there was, so my ex, who was the trans man, he was apparently, someone was talking to him and saying, "Oh, I can turn you back." Basically offering sex to him and saying, "Oh, I can turn you back straight, and 00:36:00turn you back into a woman," or whatever. And then when we were leaving, we were standing outside, and some people drove by, spit out the window, and called us all faggots.

Dean Paulk:

So that happened to me here in Sylva, but that was years ago. I know that the bowling alley is under new management, and stuff like that. But the management was actually really great. They even gave us a discount on the bowling, on the games. They gave us a discount, and everything like that. So that was nice of them and all that kind of stuff, because we had told them that we had been heckled all night. At one point the security guard had come up to us, and my friend was sitting on his boyfriend's lap, and he said, "You can't do that here." But then there was a straight couple making out the next alley, in the next lane. And we were like, "Well, what about them?" And apparently they were okay, because no one complained about them. So yeah, those kinds of things happened that night. But that's really the only incidents I've ever had. I've 00:37:00had a couple people yell things out car windows, not entirely sure what they said, but once I heard, "Queer." So I've heard some stuff like that, but really I've been very lucky.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. How'd you feel with those situations? Did it affect you very much?

Dean Paulk:

It really didn't, because I know who I am. I'm comfortable with who I am. I love who I am. It was more scary than anything, I think, just to know that there could have been the potential for violence in those situations. Because what if someone threw something out the car window, or what if they ran the truck up on the sidewalk where we were standing? Any of those kinds of things could have happened. Luckily they didn't. But that was really the main thing, was that fear of what if something else happens? More so than feeling like they were invalidating me, or something like that. I must be doing something right if they 00:38:00can tell just by looking at me. So yeah.

Caiden Costantino:

That's a very good outlook. Oh, okay, just check the time. Okay, we're still good. Do-do-do, let's look.

Dean Paulk:

That's a lot of questions.

Caiden Costantino:

These are all just possibilities.

Dean Paulk:

Oh, okay.

Caiden Costantino:

Because I mean, since it can go in any direction at all, it was very broad. I'm just trying to get some ideas. Is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't yet?

Dean Paulk:

I think I pretty much told my whole life story, so.

Caiden Costantino:

You have been very in-depth, so I appreciate that.

Dean Paulk:

I talk fast, so I tend to go through stuff pretty quickly.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah.

Dean Paulk:

I try to talk slow, but it just doesn't, I just can't do it.

Caiden Costantino:

Well, it's still clear, so you're good-

Dean Paulk:

Well, that's good. As long as it's clear and you can hear me and understand me, I'm doing good.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, let's see. This might not be applicable, but have you ever experienced racial segregation or discrimination, or if that's affected your identity at all?

Dean Paulk:

So I'm white and I'm white-passing as well. So I remember that I've seen discrimination against other people, based off of the race or ethnicity. Where I grew up, there was a high population of Black and Latinx students and people. So I still remember the day I came to Western, and I looked around, I'm like, "Why is everybody white?" Because I wasn't used to that. I was used to seeing diverse groups of people around me, and I was like, "Where are the people of color?" But yeah, no, I've never really experienced anything myself. But I know that I've 00:40:00done some stuff that was racist in the past, told some jokes, said some things that were probably insensitive. Probably still do on occasion, but I'm trying as much as I can to learn and grow, and try not to do those things, and try to be anti-racist. And yeah, I think I'm doing pretty well at it, but there's always room for improvement, for sure.

Caiden Costantino:

Mm-hmm. So if you were to give advice for any part of the LGBTQ spectrum, what would be some of the most important parts of advice you would give to them?

Dean Paulk:

I think that being yourself as much as you can, where it's safe, is really important. Not letting anyone dull your shine in a way, and not letting anyone tell you that you can't be who you are. It's very important to be happy with 00:41:00yourself, and be happy with your life, and be comfortable with yourself, whatever that means to you. I think that that's the most important thing. I think as many people as can be out as possible, is great, because that helps normalize the LGBTQ community. And it helps people learn more, and open their minds a little bit. Especially those people who haven't heard anything, and don't think that they've been exposed to anyone from the LGBTQ community. More than likely they have, they just didn't know it. Because you can't tell with all of us that we're part of the community.

Dean Paulk:

Some people you can, some people you can't. But me, you can tell as soon as I start talking, and then gesticulating all over the place, but not for everybody. So the more people that are out, and open and honest about themselves, the better I think things are going to get. But again, with safety, people need to be safe. And if anyone feels unsafe coming out, then I would never advocate for 00:42:00coming out. Of course, do what is within your own safety limits. But yeah, being yourself, being authentically you, I think is the biggest piece of advice that I can pass along.

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah, I think that's also really important. I think I've got everything here. Any final comments that you would like to contribute?

Dean Paulk:

I can't think of anything.

Caiden Costantino:

All right.

Dean Paulk:

I think the advice is a good ending comment, right?

Caiden Costantino:

Yeah. I generally try to do that to the end.

Dean Paulk:

Yeah.

Caiden Costantino:

All right.

Dean Paulk:

Awesome.

Caiden Costantino:

So we will end it here.