Oral History with London Newton, Part 2

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. Oh, no, where'd it go? Okay. Thank you for sharing your time, the gift of your stories. We can take a break or end the interview at any point. This is actually part two of the interview. With your permission, all stories will be archived with special collections at Lindsey Asheville and above as audio, video, typed transcript files. You'll be contacted to review your typed transcription in advance of publication in case you wish to make changes, corrections, or name restrictions.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I have an oral history release form for you to sign that gives your oral history and other materials in need to special collections. With restrictions means you wish to restrict some information. Without restrictions means that you can publish your name and story as seen once you approve the file transcript. Today's date is February 27th, 2021. I'm Livvy Barnes, and I'm talking with-

London:

I'm London Newton.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Who was born on...

London:

January 9th, 2000.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Sweet. This is part two of the interview, so this, I'm asking the rest of the questions from that section. First off, if you're comfortable with this, can you tell me about your coming out journey?

London:

I am a Capricorn, so my plan was to one, prepare for the worst, which I think all queer people do. Then also I was like, "I shall make my parents queer allies before I come out," right? My parents had never really talked about gay people before, so I wasn't really sure what was going on until I started trying to 00:02:00convince them that being homophobic is bad, and that's when all the microaggressions started coming out.

London:

They thought the whole time, it was me trying to defend my friend. You know it always, "My friend's gay, and blah, blah, blah," or, "My friend this, and blah, blah, blah." They would be like, "Yeah, well, blah, blah, blah," not knowing that they were talking about me. That was hurtful. I remember me and my dad would be in screaming arguments about gay rights when we would be driving, because he would pick me up from North Carolina because my parents were divorced, and then drive us back to Ohio for the summer for break and stuff.

London:

We would get into these screaming arguments in the car on a seven-hour drive.

Livvy, Interviewer:

My goodness.

London:

Yeah, and I'm in middle school because I stopped going there... I stopped going 00:03:00to Ohio when I was in high school. I eventually just cut my dad off because I was just like, "I deserve people in my life who 100% love me for who I am. If this is a part of me that you're just going to ignore and love me through it, I don't want that." I have people in my life who love me in my entirety. I deserve to be loved fully. Yeah.

London:

I had a girlfriend in high school, and it was long distance because I'm a lesbian. We met at an internship. She lived in New York, and I lived in Charlotte, so we were long distance for eight months before I went to New York for the first time. I told my mom, "Oh, I'm just visiting my friend and my sister," who also lives in New York. I did that. Eventually I came out around 00:04:00that time, I think. It was just like, I think it's what happens to a lot of gay kids where you're talking to your mom about a completely different issue, and then you're crying, and the next thing you know you're confessing.

London:

Yeah. My mom, she's definitely working on it. It's definitely improved. She hasn't always been the best, that's for sure, but she's working on it. She loves my girlfriend right now, like loves her. Yeah. I think my mom seeing me with my first girlfriend, because she came down for my senior prom, was really helpful for her because she was able to see that lesbianism is not just some sexual thing. I think that my mom saw gayness as just sexual, and she's obviously a Christian, and so she's like... Yeah.

London:

People aren't just gay for a... It's not just about sex. Yeah, I think that that was a bigger thing for her to start chilling about it. Then she really likes my current girlfriend, so that's nice. Yeah, all of my friends have always been very supportive in that regard. I was in a long distance relationship in high school, so I never had to worry really about people seeing me hold hands in public and stuff, because the only time we were holding hands in public was in New York, where people don't give a fuck what you're doing.

London:

Then I came to UNCA, where people really don't care, so I've been very lucky to not have lived placed where it was super common for people to say stuff. I've definitely had people say things, but it's never been... It's usually racially motivated.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

Rather than, yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

For you, what's the difference between someone loving you in your entirety versus loving you through being a lesbian?

London:

I felt like my dad saw me being gay as an obstacle, or a part of me that he could ignore, or just sit through. I was like, "King." I was like, "You're not going to meet my children, you're not going to be at my wedding if you're going bring bad vibes." He put a lot of the pressure on me to do that education for him, and I was like, "It's not my job to teach you how to love your own child." Obviously. It's not my job to make my case as to why you should love me.

London:

It's on top of that, my mom was pregnant with me when she started dating my dad, 00:07:00and so he chose to take me in as his child. I'm like, "You literally chose to have this child that was not biologically yours, and then you just didn't come through." He didn't come through in a lot of things. Yeah, I think for me, I was like, "I'm worried about school, I'm worried about getting my life together, and every time we talk, you just stress me out."

London:

I don't feel like... It's like every time we talk, it was another microaggression, or another, "Oh, your lifestyle choices."

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, my God.

London:

Yeah. It was just really frustrating. The worst part is my dad is friends with gay people. He just thinks it's wrong.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Isn't that how it usually is?

London:

How the hell are you friends with people, and then you don't support their relationships? That's so weird.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I feel on that, a lot of people who will be like, "Oh, your lifestyle," who are 00:08:00exactly like that. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

London:

Yeah, and my aunt's kind of similar. I've heard her say some shady things about gay people, but she definitely has a gay best friend. I'm just like, "Yeah."

Livvy, Interviewer:

Obviously it's just like, "Okay."

London:

It makes zero sense to me.

Livvy, Interviewer:

My grandma said you can't make sense out of nonsense, so I don't even think about it.

London:

Literally. I am very lucky to have people in my life who love me and support me. I am in no deficit of love and support from the people around me, so why am I putting a bunch of effort and putting a lot of energy into a relationship where I'm trying to prove myself worthy of being loved? No.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Exactly. It makes you think a lot of... I think media makes us think that if we're working hard for love or whatnot, or we should have to work hard for love 00:09:00when that's not the case, especially media geared towards Black women and narrative. We have to try to make these people love us and-

London:

Lovable. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Work. It's never just given to us. I guess maybe that's like a, "Oh, hug, Black womanhood, toxic stuff," type of thing.

London:

Yeah. It's that on top of the anti-Black comments and stuff like that that he would make even though he was a Black man. I was just like, "Yeah, no." I'm tired. I don't have time for relationships that don't serve me.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's funny because we're still so young, so I can only imagine people who feel this way. I'm like, if we feel this way now, imagine how we will feel 30 years-

London:

I've been like, "If there is a finite amount of effort that someone can make, if there is a limited amount, a set number of work that you can do, I'm burning 00:10:00through it for a lifetime." I'm tired.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. Next question. How did you come out to yourself, to other gay people, to other straight people? Yeah.

London:

I remember just thinking about it all the time. The way that I process my thoughts a lot of the time is I sit there and obsess over it by myself, and then some poor person in my life has to sit there and listen to me talk about it 15,000 times. I'm not exaggerating. Every day I talk about how I want a cat. I've been talking about it for the past close to a year. I just don't shut up, and I just haven't done it yet.

London:

Usually what happens is I talk about it nonstop, and then eventually I go do it. Yeah. I have so many memories of me sitting in the car just on the way to 00:11:00things, or just any time there was any silence somewhere, and just in my head being like, "I might be gay, I might be gay, I might be gay. Am I gay? Am I gay? Am I gay? What does that mean? Why do I want to kiss these girls and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" It was just obsessive, because I just couldn't.

London:

I never talked about it with other people, so it was just always in my head. Then I was a diehard One Direction fan. That's really going to age this video. One Direction fans were insane, but I'm not going to lie, that was where I found a lot of community. There were gay and lesbian One Direction fans that I was able to look up to and talk to on things like Tumbler, and do it anonymously, and no one would know. Do you remember the Whisper app?

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yes.

London:

I was regularly posting on there being like, "I think I'm gay, and I can't tell 00:12:00anyone." Just anywhere I could blurt it out. I think my journey also included being like, "I'm an ally, I'm an ally, I'm an ally." It's like, "No, you're gay."

Livvy, Interviewer:

Person who's just a bit too good at being an ally.

London:

That was me. I was like, "Well, obviously girls are more beautiful. What else?"

Livvy, Interviewer:

The people who are already out there like, "Hm."

London:

Yeah. Yeah. That was me. It was a lot of trying to find avenues that I could let it out without actually having to tell the people in my life for a long time. Then my best friend in high school... I never came out in a really big way. I hate to ask. I don't know how I did it. I think Sophie's here. I could literally ask her. I think I just talked about it randomly. I was just like, "Yeah, I think I could date girls," kind of thing, and none of my friends really cared.

London:

It was just like, "Oh, London's open to dating girls," and then one day I just did.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That easy.

London:

Yeah. Yeah. My friend was really easy. I was really scared to tell my sister, even though she's always been the most supportive person in my life. She's religious, so I was really scared that that would be the thing to make her turn against me, because it happens sometimes. Yeah. I told my brother, but he literally didn't care. He said, "Duh," and just kept walking up the stairs. [inaudible 00:13:35] talk. The thing about coming out to my mom that was so weird was that she should have known.

London:

I was in a long distance relationship for eight or nine months before I told her, and it was like I... At one point I just stopped caring about whether or not she knew. I feel like in Black households we just like to avoid talking about things, and that's really hard for me. If something is on my mind, it's 00:14:00really hard for me to shut up about it. At one point I was like, "She should know." I was like, "There's no way she doesn't know."

London:

I just started walking around the house on the phone with my girlfriend and saying babe, and all this stuff, and she just never said anything. Then when I came out she was like, "Well, how was I supposed to know?" I was like, "Girl, what?"

Livvy, Interviewer:

You went, "I was being gay around the [inaudible 00:14:31], did you not know?"

London:

Right, and I would say like, "My gay heart," or stuff like that. Me and my sister would be like, "How is she not hearing this?"

Livvy, Interviewer:

Maybe she was thinking happy and gay.

London:

No. She [inaudible 00:14:45]. I remember her, she used to tell her friend. She used to be like, "London just loves to stick up for the underdog. She just really cares about LGBTQ rights because her friends." I was like, "Yeah, my friends are LGBTQ. Right." Yeah. I think it was gradual. I came out really 00:15:00slowly to different kinds of people, but again, because I was lucky enough to have that support from my friends and my mom to an extent, I...

London:

A lot of the high-risk people that I could have came out to, I'd already came out to, and I was so sick of hiding that I just didn't care who found out at that point. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Now after you've done all of this, what are your views on coming out? Do you feel like you need to come out to new people, or you just like, "Not worth it?"

London:

No.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

London:

We've been seeing trans folks talk about this on TikTok where there's been people who are like, "You need to tell people you're trans before you have sex with them." I'm like, "Why?" First of all, dangerous. Second of all, why? If I'm having sex with someone, they probably already know what my genitalia is. I also 00:16:00am lucky enough that I live somewhere where it doesn't really matter most of the time. That's another thing.

London:

I feel like there's more gay people in Asheville than straight people. I'm surprised when people are straight.

Livvy, Interviewer:

You're like, "Oh, wow."

London:

Right. It's one of those things where if you all don't assume everyone is straight, people don't have to come out. Totally valid that people do it, totally valid if you don't want to, and people shouldn't have to, and hopefully it'll be fake. I saw this one thing that was like instead of calling it coming out, calling it letting people in.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah, I saw that one.

London:

Yeah. Instead of saying, "I'm coming out," saying, "I'm going to let you into a part of my life." I think that's really cool because it's like...

Livvy, Interviewer:

That's how I've been thinking about it. I feel from my personal journey that I'm not going to come out to people, but I feel like I've let who's important in. If 00:17:00you know, you know, but I'm not going to make a big deal out of it. Personally, it's just like, "Yeah." It doesn't make sense, especially for new people in my life. You're just joining the party. These are the people who have been here.

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). It also I think points out the privilege that comes with allowing you into my life, and allowing you into these personal parts of myself. I think it's important to see that as a privilege that I bestow among people. I allow you to know about me, not I'm some weirdo that needs to warn people and let them know what I'm up to, you know?

Livvy, Interviewer:

[inaudible 00:17:38]. What is she doing? She's kissing another girl. She's kissing other people. First of all, mind your business. Very weird.

London:

You don't.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That's all you need to say to other people. I'm like, "Are you jealous? Is that what you want to do? You're not my type."

London:

Period. Yeah. I had so many times in middle school where I was like... I'm a 00:18:00woman. I'm gay, so it's like the predatory lesbian stuff is such a anxiety of mine still. I know what it's like to be a woman and be uncomfortable. I know what it's like to feel like someone is preying on you, and I would never want to make other people feel that way. People, straight women especially, they love to act like someone's looking at them. I'm like, "Ain't nobody looking at you."

Livvy, Interviewer:

Always is the crustiest ones that I've noticed.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm just like, "I'm not interested." I was like, "I get it. You may not have standards, but some of us... "

London:

[inaudible 00:18:44] standards, but I do.

Livvy, Interviewer:

And you're not a part of mine. No shame, but it's just like, "You're not my type." I've had straight women be so angry by that, but I was like, "You're not even interested in women, so I don't understand."

London:

Why do you want to be my type?

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, "So I'm confused." Have you had the experience of straight women try to be in your space, and be sexual with you? [crosstalk 00:19:11].

London:

Yeah. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

They're a [crosstalk 00:19:15].

London:

They will [inaudible 00:19:15] and all this shit, and then they're like, "So me and my boyfriend." I'm like, "Boyfriend? That was weird. This is making me uncomfy." Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah, I recently had to break off a friendship with a straight person because she was like that. It just made me really uncomfortable. She'd do a lot of flirty things, and sexual advances, and try to touch me. I was like, "Girl, I really don't like that." I was like, "I'm not interested in straight women like that." I was like, "Straight men are already a no. Please stop."

London:

Yeah. I know.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It makes me a bit sick. Let's see. One question is what influenced your coming out?

London:

Pressure. Literally it's just like, I was so sick of hiding, and it was so overwhelming. I always say that before I came out, and even now with my security concerns after all the protests and stuff, I always say it felt like someone put a cage around my lungs, and I literally could not take a full breath. That's how I felt being in the closet. That's how I feel being a Black person in America. Removing that cage is so liberating.

London:

With queerness, it was something I was able to remove that cage, and with my Blackness, it's not as easy, which means that I'm really not able to remove anything because my Blackness and my queerness are intertwined. They're not separate. It's just so exhuasting living like that. I just couldn't do it 00:21:00anymore. Yeah. I'd had a safety plan, too. I had a bag packed. I had a safe house. I was like, "If this hits the fan, I know where I'm going to go, and I'm just going to be on my own. I'll figure it out myself. I'm a big girl, I'm a Capricorn. I will work it out."

Livvy, Interviewer:

Do you have any favorite stories from your dating life, like earlier life or now?

London:

I have this one story, but it's literally about sex, so I probably shouldn't. I'm trying to think. It was really funny. I don't know. I just remember with my 00:22:00first girlfriend all these realizes of the differences between dating men and being with women. Women are so much softer and cleaner, and all these things. Just the first time dating a woman is just so awesome. There have been times where I'm just like, "I love my life. I really do."

London:

It's just awesome. I love living my life surrounded by women, and by femmes, and by queer people. I remember walking around New York for the first time. I love New York. It made me feel so hopeful and all this stuff. I remember I was walking around with my first girlfriend, who I felt at that point I was going to marry. I remember I was scared to hold hands, and she was like, "Girl, no one 00:23:00here is looking at you. Literally no one cares what you're doing."

London:

In New York, people don't have time to care what you're doing. It was really liberating for me, and it's something that is really good for my anxieties. People are so busy with their own lives, why the fuck would they care what you're doing? Yeah, that was one of my favorite memes. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That's cute.

London:

All I can think of at the moment. Then dating Black women? I love it. They just get it. You're dating someone who gets it. I think the love between two Black people is just so special and so feeling. I just feel like our ancestors are just rooting for us, and I love it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Background. You know the memes they have where they have Rosa Parks, MLK, and 00:24:00they're faded?

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's like that. Sojourner Truth.

London:

Yes.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What is this question? What was your first visit to a gay-related place or event in life?

London:

UNC Asheville, White. I hadn't been a lot of... Sorry, that was gross. Black queer spaces until this summer. My first time going to UNCA out was not fun because everyone was White and looked at me weird, but it was really cool being in Asheville, because I feel like that's generally a pretty queer place. Holding hands with your girlfriend, and high schoolers seeing you and being like, "Oh, my God, that's so cute, and look at me." You know?

London:

I just remember how excited I used to get when I would see older lesbian couples, and I love that now I can do that for someone, and that one day I'll be able to be the old butch. So excited. Yeah. Then this summer with all the Black queer organizers that I met, it's just... I don't know, dude. I've never been a super spiritual person, but I'm just like, "I can feel it." I can feel the healing happening. I can feel real community.

London:

I can feel our ancestors just being like, "Yes, we are back together again." Yeah. It's really nice.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I really believe in the healing power of women. I think that, I don't know, usually when there's healing, it's usually women starting and doing the stuff. Really in any community, but I think especially when I look at women of color 00:26:00communities, we're the ones starting these initiatives to help each other. That's also another reason why I'm just... Femme, women dominated spaces, because it's usually such a healing experience to hang out with other women, non-men. I'm just like, "Wow."

London:

Yeah. Juneteenth in Asheville, that was such a good day. We were drinking. It was nice out. We were just dancing and singing. It rained and we kept dancing. Black people dancing in the rain.

Livvy, Interviewer:

This sounds [inaudible 00:26:43]. This is like an Omarion video come to life. This is going to [inaudible 00:26:46], as well.

London:

Yeah, it was so fun. We were just doing our White people shit. I loved it. Yeah. I feel like we all were really free then. In White queer spaces, I can't be in 00:27:00my entirety. In Black spaces that aren't queer inclusive, I can't be there in my entirety. It was just a bunch of Black and queer people, Black queer people, and it was just...

Livvy, Interviewer:

It just feels right.

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Juneteenth was a good day. That was also the day I started to Michelle.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I remember then the text message like, "So." I was like, "Oh? Look how far y'all have come."

London:

I know.

Livvy, Interviewer:

When you say you can't be in your entirety in White queer spaces and in Black spaces, can you explain more on that?

London:

It's like White queer spaces are just rip-offs of Black queer culture, and Black straight spaces are often Black culture, but not including the queer side, and they're overly Christian sometimes. I feel like Black queer spaces are often really trauma-informed in the religious stuff. A lot of us, even if we're not 00:28:00religious and it's a really traumatic place for us, it's like [inaudible 00:28:07]. It's different when it's Mary Mary or Franklin. We can listen to that every once in a while.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It slaps. I [inaudible 00:28:14].

London:

Slaps. Yeah. It's also that Black queer spaces are often the ones that are most accessible for the most people. Even just not Black queer people, and it's because Black people and Black queer people and Black femmes know what it's like to be left out a lot, and we make our spaces often as inclusive as possible. I think it's not-

Livvy, Interviewer:

Sometimes to our own detriment, uh-huh (affirmative).

London:

100% sometimes to our own detriment. Just because we are able to make it inclusive to all people doesn't mean we should invite everyone. It's not bad to gatekeep culture.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah, I don't think it's bad. I remember I used to be like, "Everyone join in." Now I've come to a point where I'm like, "No."

London:

No.

Livvy, Interviewer:

We got to gatekeep certain things in order for our culture to live on, because 00:29:00too much of this stuff is getting taken, and it's being watered down. I personally just don't want to be a part of that.

London:

Right.

Livvy, Interviewer:

If I do share it, it's got to be with the right people.

London:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I love being around other Black people and queer Black queer people. It's been so helpful. I started scheduling weekly Zoom calls with one of my friends. We're both just working the whole time, but it's just so that we can have someone to talk do while we're doing it and everything, and it's really helpful. That's been nice.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That sounds nice.

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. Let me see. I'm in the race, ethnicity part, and you have answered a lot of this, so I'm trying to see if there's anything I need to... Did you know others in the gay community who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement or 00:30:00were especially supportive of racial integration/fairness?

London:

Nope. I went in junior ROTC in high school, so I it was a bunch of either ultimately homophobic or don't know they're homophobic people a lot of the time.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. Did being part of the LGBT community bring you in contact with people of different ethnic backgrounds? How did that affect your circumstances or outlook?

London:

I think learning about queerness and indigenous cultures and stuff has been really interesting. A lot of the spaces I've been in, just because 'rona, haven't been physical spaces, so it's just been a lot of educational things I learn from TikTok and Instagram. I do think it's really cool because Black culture, it's new. It's just simply not as old as a lot of the other cultures in the world because Black culture was created out of formerly enslaved people.

London:

I think it's been cool from TikTok just learning about different cultures and how they see gender and stuff like that.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. I can agree from TikTok, and then readings, and learning in different dynasties how it was regular for kings or queens to be bisexual, and there being third genders in different religions, and how they're really important. I was like, "Why am I just learning this now?" Because I wish I had known this information before because it's really interesting.

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What has provided you the greatest satisfaction in life? I know it's a deep question.

London:

I know. I think I'm starting to try and let go of the idea that I need to be a 00:32:00leader, because that's always been a thing I got compliments for. It was like, "Oh, you're a leader." Leadership is lonely and tiring. It shouldn't all be one person's responsibility, and that's been really liberating for me, is being like, "I'm just a drop in a bucket." A drop in the ocean. What I'm doing is important, but it's not all on me, because I felt like it often was.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm thinking this semester, this past semester, I'm just like, "Ah."

London:

I'm so tired.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

I'm starting to not be present anymore.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What really changed your mind in the idea that it wasn't all on you?

London:

Because I learned that leadership and exceptionalism, individual exceptionalism 00:33:00is just a way for capitalism to convince people to work harder because they think they'll have a chance to reach the top. This whole idea of wanting to try and be great and better than everyone else is just a way for them to incentivize us to work harder.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

Now I'm tired.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I think you already know this because we were talking about this years ago. We were worried that you were going to burn yourself out because you were such a little... I was about to say capitalist, but that's my younger brother. You're not a capitalist.

London:

I was. Yeah. I didn't realize it, but I was.

Livvy, Interviewer:

At the time, you were a capitalist in really like, "We need some leadership." I remember being one of the people back then when I was a sophomore. It was like, "You're going to burn yourself out if you keep on doing this." You were like, "No." Now fast forward this time, you're like, "Wow."

London:

Yeah. You and Deja really saved me and were like, "You need to slow it down."

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like-

London:

They didn't [crosstalk 00:34:05] getting through, but I promise eventually...

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, "If we just keep on telling her," I was like, "Or at some point, we can save her."

London:

I will just burn out. During campaign week, I passed out twice.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I remember you told make that afterward.

London:

I was so tired, and I was working so much, I literally fainted twice in one week.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I remember you told me like, "How was your campaign week?" I was like, "It was pretty chill, and I was just meeting people." You're like, "Oh?"

London:

It was terrible. It was literally terrible. I knew it was going to be a close race, and it was. It was only 60 votes. That's the difference between me going and walking around Brown one more time than Elena did.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I didn't even look to see how much votes I got at that time. It was just like, "Oh, that's nice. Chill."

London:

We're going to win. I just needed to find someone to run with, so I was like, 00:35:00"It's whatever." Yeah. I was like, "This is just not sustainable. I can't keep doing this." I was like, "That exactly what White supremacy wants, is for Black women to burn themselves out until they can't work anymore, but while they still get to get labor out of them." I realized anti-racism and anti-capitalism is me taking a break.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's why I'm always talking about that and telling people. I'm like, "Take a break." Instead of being like, "You need to take a break so you can do more things for capitalism," because that used to be stuff I would say in the past. I was like, "You need to take a break so you can there for yourself." People are like, "Whoa." I was like, "Exactly."

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, "What? You burn yourself out now, and then you're just going to be miserable for a while." Sometimes you won't come back from the burnout.

London:

Literally, though.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was just [inaudible 00:35:59].

London:

I'm going to be alive for a long time. Life is a long time. I was like, "I have 00:36:00a long time to work. I might as well just regulate, and just do what I can when I can, and just keep on living." Livvy, you really exemplify that to me. It would annoy me, I'm not going to lie. [inaudible 00:36:19]. I was like, "She's always changing times for things, and not texting back, and blah, blah, blah." Someone was like... I think it was Elena was like, "Livvy's living on her own schedule. She's taking her time."

London:

I was like, "Honestly? Let me be like Livvy. [inaudible 00:36:34]." I've been working so hard.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, "What is the point?"

London:

She just takes her time. You always get it done. You just get it done in your own time.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I always get it done, it always looks good. Instead of me rushing and stressing myself out, and turnout out a hot mess.

London:

Right. I've just been trying to chill, be gay.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Wow. I didn't realize I inspired someone who inspires me.

London:

You really did. Yeah. Then I started to realize investing in relationships is just as important as investing in myself, and investing in my work, and all that kind of stuff. I have ADD, so it's hard for me to be present, ever. It's a lot more present in my relationships to start seeing them as equal to all the other things I'm doing, because I always felt like I have to be a better... Leadership has to be my top priority.

London:

The work I do has to be my top priority, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, life is also about the relationships that you build. I don't want to die and the only thing I have is a resume.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Damn. That would be so sad.

London:

Right? It would be a nice resume, but I want more than that. I've been just investing more, trying to invest more time in my relationships, and it's been really nice.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I feel like relationships has always been important to me, but I think I put myself on the back burner. For the past year and some, I've been working on 00:38:00spending more time with myself. My friends already know me as a loner, but I was like, "I need to spend time with myself without distractions of screens and other stuff." I feel like I've really started... I already liked myself, but I'm like, "Damn, I am cool as hell."

Livvy, Interviewer:

With the whole, you come to end your life with a resume, I'm like... Last year and the year before last year, I experienced an older person in my life who didn't work on their relationships, their friendships, and they came to near the end of their life, and they were alone. I was like, "You know what? I realized if you don't work on your friendships, and you only work on romantic relationships... " I was like, "I don't want to do that."

Livvy, Interviewer:

I've never seen someone so sad as they cry out for help before. It's like I was watching my own life flash before my eyes. I was like, "I can't do that." Junior year, I really focused on my friendships, and I'm really glad because then the 00:39:00Pon de Replay happened. I wasn't able to see y'all as much except for over the Zoom calls.

London:

It's hard to build on relationships that haven't already been created over Zoom. I've definitely done it. I had a couple friends... One of my friends, Deedee, we've always been acquaintance. I'm like, "Cool, because we work together." Since the panny, I'm just like... We just FaceTime almost every day, and just talk just randomly. It's usually short conversations, but it's really been building. It's wild because we probably hung out in person five times in the past year, but I would genuinely consider her one of my closest friends.

London:

Yeah, it's definitely different and weird.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. I was like, "Okay, I got a whole relationship over the Pon de Replay, which is weird. Also I realized I got closer to some people through the Zoom. I was like, "How is this possible that we became closer in this long distance than 00:40:00we ever were with school?" I was like, "Maybe we just didn't have the... Since we don't have distractions like school life and whatnot, it made it so much easier to just focus on this one-on-one." Wild.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Whoa. Next question. We got two more. How would you say the world has changed since you were... Oh, wow. Since you were young? How has your experience changed over time in the LGBT community, especially related to stigma and inclusion?

London:

I think before it was a lot of subliminal racism, and now it's more outright. There's definitely been a resurgence of just flat-out violence, and that's because of Trumpy, and also because of late stage capitalism. It's like on one 00:41:00end, the capitalists are grappling to keep doing their divide and conquer because there's stress, and the capital... Capitalism will end. Things come to an end, and capitalism will be one of them.

London:

It's just naturally not a sustainable system. I think part of it is with people like Trump trying there make people more hateful towards each other for capitalist reasons. Then also as people get desperate, they get mean. Things like the 2008 housing, whatever, and all these things that have happened make people less loving of each other because we have to worry more about keeping ourselves safe, because we often don't realize how all of our fates are linked. I think it's just gotten scarier.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

Then what was the second part?

Livvy, Interviewer:

How has your experience changed over time in the LGBT community, especially relating to stigma and inclusion?

London:

I don't know. I feel like I didn't really... I don't think I really had LGBT 00:42:00community until recently, and so I don't think it's had enough time to have changed. I definitely stopped investing... I don't not at all, but I don't invest as much in my relationships with White gays as I used to. I used to think, "Oh, we're all gay, blah, blah, blah." No, it's different.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

I'm prioritizing my relationships with Black and Brown gay people.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What has made you prioritize that, the relationship? What's so different besides us being Black and Brown, them being White?

London:

Because it often feels transactional because I know that I'm teaching them something whenever I'm talking about how I feel.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

Obviously we can all learn from each other, but I'm sick of... I already have to do activism. I already have to do educational things. I don't feel educating other people. I want to talk to people who can help me, and I feel like I've 00:43:00been a person for a lot of guidance for a lot of people, like a lot of baby gays coming to me, because there's a lot of baby gays at UNCA and stuff like that. Which I love doing, but I also deserve to be taught by other people. I don't feel like I learn much from White gay people.

London:

I feel like the most I've learned has been from queer and trans specifically Black people.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I feel like after a certain point if you are a baby gay or Black, and you have White friends who have been gay for a while, you learn their stuff. Then after a certain point, it's like you can't learn any more from them. You have to go to your own spaces. At least that's what was my experience. I was like, "Wow, I feel like I've learned all I could learn, and now I'm going towards the Janelle Mone gays and learning more information."

London:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, exactly. Janelle Mone.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That was my coming out story. Her, and then right before with Thor and Ragnarok, 00:44:00I went to see the movie with the person I was seeing at the time, who was also queer. When... What is her name? When Valkyrie came out, and she was in her whole hero fit, I was just like... I feel like my pupil dilated.

London:

For me it was Shego, from Kim Possible.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Shego was fine.

London:

Then, oh, my God, why am I forgetting her name? I used to watch the movie all the time. The main character in Hercules, the Disney cartoon.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What is her name? Was it Megara, Meg?

London:

Meg. Yeah. Dude, I was like... I like them mean, too, a little bit.

Livvy, Interviewer:

They are a bit mean.

London:

I know. I've realized. I've been like, "I kind of like them mean a little."

Livvy, Interviewer:

I attract the mean-

London:

My girlfriend is a Cancer, though.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Is she a sun or a moon?

London:

He sun sign's a Cancer.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. Usually sun Cancers are mean, and moon Cancers are the cry babies.

London:

She has a bit of a mean streak, but she is really, really sweet.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm really sweet, but all the sun Cancers I know, I'm just like, "Dang, y'all. We're toeing the line." Here's Hell, and sometimes we just be right here.

London:

Yeah. I'm mostly mean when I'm being protective.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm mean by accident, and that always makes me feel bad.

London:

Yeah. I'll do it by accident, and then I don't really care.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm like, "Oh, no," because then I'll see the person be like... I'm like, "Oh." I'll throw accidental shade, and they'll be like, "Cut-throat." I'm like, "I am so sorry." They'll be like, "Remember that time you said that? I still think 00:46:00about that." I'm like... I was like, "I don't know how much I can apologize." I'll apologize while I'm like, "You may need to go see a therapist. I'm so sorry I scarred you like that."

London:

Hey, we're all going to do it to each other at one point.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm trying to think of who else from my childhood. Back then I was just in denial. I was just like, "Wow, I just really want to be friends with these women." Now I'm at this age, and I'm like... Yeah.

London:

You want to...

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah, I was like, "Huh." I was like, "So, wait." I was like, "Wait a minute, so y'all all didn't want to take them out, and go on a picnic, and spend your life with them?"

London:

Oh, my God, no, no, we can't say picnic anymore.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What? Why not? Wait, I heard about that. No. Why? What do you say now?

London:

Cookout. Yeah, cookout.

Livvy, Interviewer:

An outside luncheon.

London:

Yeah. Brunch. We're going for brunch.

Livvy, Interviewer:

This ruins everything. Everything.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay.

London:

I'll get a picture to you, too, by the way. Camille has a picture of me.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Is that the one that they stole from her in the Asheville... ? Can she still figure out something? I was like, "That isn't yours."

London:

It was that they... We gave it to them, and gave them information to give her credit, and they just didn't. Then I emailed them and said, "Post her or you're racist." They said, "I guess." So.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah, because she posted that and I was like, "Is that allowed?" We're taking them to people's court immediately.

London:

They emailed me and they were like, "By the way, sorry, we forgot it in print, but we have it online." I was like, "This is her first publication, dickhead." Yeah. All right. I have to do a food distro. Is there another question?

Livvy, Interviewer:

Last one. What are some of the most valuable or influential things your generation has done for upcoming LGBTQ generation? What work remains for the generations coming up?

London:

I feel like the Civil Rights Movement in the '60s was very, didn't have a lot of queer people in the forefront, even though we were doing a lot of the work. I think that the movement, this wave is a lot more queer-led, and I'm hoping it will continue to be. I'm hoping that we set that precedent well. Yeah, and I think that we're discussing intersectionality a lot more, and the importance of that. I'm hoping that keeps a role in.

London:

Only talking about the rights for straight Black people, or for non-disabled Black people means that none of us get to be free, you know? That's how we end up having coons like Kamala Harris.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Not you saying this on this thing that's going in the cloud.'

London:

It's the truth! She's a cop, but people are like, "Oh, she's Black, okay?"

Livvy, Interviewer:

That doesn't really change anything. Look at Ben Carson. How many people were involved with Trump?

London:

Coon.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like-

London:

[inaudible 00:49:18] is a Black Cuban, coon.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, my goodness, that had me so shook. I was like, "Wait a minute, [inaudible 00:49:25]." I was like, "Why are White supremacists having diversity hires? Pause."

London:

That is so funny. I never even thought about it that way. [inaudible 00:49:35] way to do it. It's a Black-led movement technically. At this point, maybe we should be supporting... I'm kidding.

Livvy, Interviewer:

The person syncing this, [inaudible 00:49:45].

London:

I know. Yeah. It's gross.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm going to stop the interview. Thank you for your time, London, and taking out to do this. I think this is going to be different than a 00:50:00lot of interviews since we're friends. I don't know why I said that with a question mark. "Since we're friends?"

London:

I know, it was like...

Livvy, Interviewer:

Thank you for giving or letting me use some of your time. I think you're super busy. It's great hearing all this information. Some of it I knew, but some of it I didn't know. I'm just like, "Woo!"

London:

I know. We learned about each other today.

Livvy, Interviewer:

We did, [inaudible 00:50:33].