Oral History with Danny B.

Govinda Wagner:

Wow, we have a little intro bit that we start with.

Danny:

Okay.

Govinda Wagner:

If you will in a just a second let us know what your name and where and when you were born, and what your pronouns are.

Danny:

Okay.

Govinda Wagner:

And then that'll be like our official start to the thing. So I hope it-

Danny:

[crosstalk 00:00:17].

Govinda Wagner:

First name... What's that?

Danny:

Just first name or first and last name?

Govinda Wagner:

Whatever you want to let us know.

Danny:

I'll just do my first name.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I don't want people to [inaudible 00:00:29].

Govinda Wagner:

I don't want to be known.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Here we go.

Danny:

Okay. My name is Danny. I was born in Miami, Florida in 1992 but I moved up here in 1996 when I was four. So I grew up in Asheville. What else?

Govinda Wagner:

You did your name, where you were born, when you were born and how you got to Asheville, which is really what my next question was going to be.

Danny:

Okay.

Govinda Wagner:

So that's really cool. Yeah.

Danny:

My mom's side of the family is from Colombia, South America. My dad's side is from here, from the States. My grandmother, my abuelita, moved to the States when she was about 14 because she married my grandfather at 14 who was far older than her to get out of Colombia. She's from La Dorada and Los Caldus, Colombia, which is a really small fishing village, but this is like Colombia in the '70s, '60s and '70s so it's not a very good place to live and you don't really have a lot of opportunities there.

Danny:

So she married my grandfather at the age of 14, moved up here, had my mom and they moved into the Miami area. And then she had three other kids and divorced my grandfather and then raised four kids on her own mostly. And then they all 00:02:00grew up in the Miami area. And then my dad was born in Massachusetts, but his family... His mom was not a very nice lady and she had a lot of problems, and she kind of raised my dad in a lot of cults. So they moved around a lot and ended up in Gainesville. And then when he came of age, moved to Miami. And then my parents met because they worked in a bar together because everyone in my family either works in a bar or is in the military. I chose the bar. I was not going to [crosstalk 00:02:41].

Govinda Wagner:

I was going to say what path did you choose?

Danny:

Yeah. So they met in Miami. And then I'm the eldest so they had me and then I have a little brother and a little sister. My little brother's two years younger than me and we were both born in Miami. They moved us up... Okay, it's weird. My 00:03:00dad was a bodyguard for the Saudi Arabian royals in Egypt for the first eight years of my life. So we lived there on and off.

Danny:

Then right after Desert Storm, they started to jail Americans in Egypt. So he was like, "I've got to get the fuck out of here." So he left his job completely, got out of Egypt and we ended up living with my aunt who their side of the family's very, very military. So my uncle was stationed at a military base in Fayetteville, North Carolina. That's how we ended up in North Carolina. Fayetteville's a shithole and they did not want to stay there.

Danny:

So somehow my parents ended up finding Asheville so we moved here when I was four in 1996 and I've been here ever since. Actually, most of my family lives here. Well, like immediate family. My brother's still here. My little sister 00:04:00lives here, my dad lives here and my [foreign language 00:04:11] lives here with my dad. And my mom lived here until she passed three years ago. So all of immediate family lives in Asheville.

Danny:

But yeah, we moved here when I was four and didn't officially move to Asheville proper, we moved to Swannanoa. And moving from a place like Miami where I am surrounded by Latinx people and people of color, and this big city, to Swannanoa in the '90s, and this was like pre-Asheville getting very popular. So it was either scattered hippies, rednecks, or abandoned, and moving to Swannanoa from that whole completely opposite way of the world was really intense. I had a really bad time in kindergarten and first grade. Mostly because it was like 00:05:00being Latinx was being trained out of me forcefully. It was weird to talk Spanish. It was weird to be the other essentially.

Danny:

I've also talked to a couple of other friends who grew up here who are Latinx who said the same thing. Spanish was my first language. I'm no longer as fluent as I want to be anymore because it was forced out of me in rural, white populated schools that were like... They didn't want you to speak Spanish. If you spoke Spanish they would say, "Say that again in English." That kind of thing.

Danny:

But so first grade, kindergarten, very early years were really rough. I fucking hated going to school because it was a bunch of like really crazy rednecks who I didn't want to be around and they didn't want to be around me. And I used to hide from the school bus and shit, not want to go to school.

Govinda Wagner:

Was this in Swannanoa?

Danny:

This was in Swannanoa, yeah. I don't know if the school's still around. It was 00:06:00called WD Williams. It was one of the public school, public elementary school there. Like I said, this was pretty early Asheville area, like pre the blowup of Asheville. I mean, it was starting to get the whole arts culture thing and like, "Asheville's weird. Keep Asheville weird," kind of thing. But it was relatively early on in that. So it was still that time where a lot of rural North Carolina public schools were like, "Well, you're either going to end up in jail or you're going to work in a factory. So just stay in school until you have to and then you're going to end up in manufacturing anyways." That kind of deal.

Danny:

So they weren't really expecting any of us to go to college. They weren't really training any of us to be academically sound. Most of my time was spent in the corner reading books on my own because the teacher spent so much time who were going buck-ass wild that they were like, "Well, you can just go over here and 00:07:00read books while we deal with these kids that are fucking going nuts."

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:07:11].

Danny:

Yeah. It was [crosstalk 00:07:14].

Govinda Wagner:

You were well-behaved. You get to do this.

Danny:

So yeah, it was in second grade that my mom found a local charter school called Evergreen. And I was one of the first kids... Actually, that's how I met Ivy because me and Ivy were in that same charter school. And I was one of the first kids to enroll into that school. And the idea was that it was a charter school, but it wasn't... It was a free charter school so it was available to a spectrum of incomes. And my folks were like really, really broke poor at the time. So I didn't have to pay anything to go there. And it kept me out of the local, rural public school system that was really shitty and I hated.

Danny:

So the school was run primarily by some wealthier hippy-dippy folks who were 00:08:00involved in local politics and architects, or artists, and had money, and wanted to create this sanctuary school for their kids where they're not having to deal with public school and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And then there was also the inner city's kids who didn't want to deal with public school anymore. So you had this weird juxtaposition of these wealthy hippy-dippy kids whose parents are running the school. And they're doing all these weird things like, I don't know, like solstice parties and all this stuff. And then all these inner city kids who don't have to pay to go to this school and are just like, "Well, I guess we're going to just deal with these hippies now."

Danny:

So yeah, it was a really, really weird group of people, but I don't know, it was a good experience. I do remember there was like... It was in middle school because I went there from second to eighth grade. And in middle school when all 00:09:00of the girls started getting their periods, they would do period parties. Very like Godiva goddess [crosstalk 00:09:15], whatever. And I remember when I got my period I was like, "I swear God to mom, if you tell any of them," and my mom's like, "I will not promise." So I never did that because I was like, "Don't fucking tell them. I don't want this."

Danny:

And then, I don't know, as far as... So my first I guess openly queer friend would've been Ivy, or at least at the time where it made sense for people to be starting to feel they're... Because I'm sure I met plenty of other kids that were queer, but we were very young. So I met Ivy in seventh or eighth grade and for me, I was always... My parents considered me a tomboy, whatever. I always knew. Looking in the mirror I didn't see me. I saw a boy. I always knew that these were the feelings that I had. I had no question about it, but it was how 00:10:00do you process these things, especially when you're a kid?

Danny:

I didn't have the fucking language. I didn't know what being transgender was. I didn't even know that was a fucking thing. That being said, I grew up around a bunch of queer folks. My parents being in the bar industry in Miami and just they would somehow always find gay people. We lived in Marion for a minute. My dad was a car salesman and my parents were still surrounded by queers. I'm like, "In fucking Marion, North Carolina. How? How?"

Danny:

My mom had this one friend Sheila who was like this real butch lesbian and I used to hang out with her all the time when I was like five, six, seven. She'd just come to my parents' house, whatever. And I remember my parents telling me one story about how they went to the strip club one time and there was this one stripper that Sheila had a huge crush on. And instead of just getting dollar bills and tipping her, or asking her out, she just took her whole wallet out and 00:11:00threw it at her. But yeah, that's like [crosstalk 00:11:12].

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:11:12].

Danny:

I was constantly surrounded by people from all different walks of life and constantly surrounded by queer folks. And my mom's best friend when I was growing up, his name was Harrison and he was the most flaming person I've ever met in my life. But my first, my own queer friend I think was probably Ivy in I think it was eighth, it may have been seventh grade, seventh or eighth grade. I remember one time Ivy came to school one day. When I met Ivy they had this gorgeous long, red, wavy hair and they were just pretty femme and all this stuff.

Danny:

And then one day he came to school and just had completely Sinad O'Connor, Britney Spears shaved all the fucking hair off. Every single bit. And just was wearing as large t-shirt with a belt around it as a dress. And came to school 00:12:00and was like, "I'm gay." And it was just like overnight. And I'm sure it wasn't overnight for him, but was just like, "Hey, I'm gay. This is me." And almost all of the other kids were like, "Wow, what a fucking weirdo."

Danny:

And I remember we were outside. We had to do the mandatory 30-minute recreation time, like public school bullshit, whatever. And we used to just walk around this field and talk shit and stuff. And no one would walk with Ivy and I was the only person that would walk with Ivy. And I didn't understand why everyone was being so fucking weird about it. I'm like, "Y'all, it's not contagious. What's wrong with you?" It ended up being chill afterward. Everyone just had... I don't know, I feel like it was some sort of shock reaction or whatever. But anyways, Ivy was then first kiss.

Govinda Wagner:

Yay!

Danny:

Yeah. And I found out that I was also Ivy's first kiss.

Govinda Wagner:

Aww, babies.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:13:07].

Danny:

Yeah, we had a sleepover one time and then we made out and we're like, "Oh wow, we're both gay."

Govinda Wagner:

Look at that.

Danny:

Look at that.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

But then I went into high school and that's where I definitely met a lot more openly queer folk who were just definitely not... This was still like the early 2000s, like 20... Not early 2000s, but like mid past... I graduated high school in 2010. So 2006.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:13:34].

Danny:

2006 to 2010. So I definitely met a lot more openly queer folk and at that point I was pretty content with knowing that I was queer. I didn't officially come out to my parents for various reasons. One, growing up in a Latinx family, it's really fucking tough to come out as gay or queer. There's just like this... 00:14:00there's a lot of traditional gender roles that are really heavily expressed in the culture. There's a lot of that machismo fucking attitude. I think now queerness is definitely a lot more okay within Latinx culture, but for a long fucking time it wasn't. And coming out to an ethnic family is fucking terrifying. Not only is my mom from Colombia and very indigenous South American, my dad's Muslim. And I also grew up around a huge majority of Muslim people and Middle Eastern people and Arabic people, which is also being queer is a huge fucking no-no for a lot of folks who grew up in Middle Eastern culture.

Danny:

That being said, as someone who has studied the Koran, I don't think that it's a huge no-no in Islam. That's my personal opinion. There's receipts for that. But 00:15:00a lot of Middle Eastern culture does not accept being queer. So I didn't officially come out to my folks in high school, but I definitely was making out with girls a lot. And I don't... I remember there was this one girl I was really in love with. We were kind of friends and we had a mutual friend and I had kind of expressed feelings for her and she didn't deny them, but she didn't was like, "Let's date," or whatever. Because I think she was struggling with her own identity at that the time.

Danny:

And our mutual friend, we were driving around and I think I remember that being like... talking to him and stuff, him being like, "Oh yeah, you're gay, you're queer." But I hadn't really been like, "Hey everybody, I'm gay." It was more of a natural progression for me. I didn't make a point to be like, "All right, I'm coming out now." It was just kind of like, "Well, I'm going to do this and just 00:16:00whatever happens, happens, and whatever." But I also did not express any interest in cis men. I made out with one guy in eighth grade. And it was like, "Eh, [crosstalk 00:16:26]."

Govinda Wagner:

That's enough.

Danny:

That's enough. But yeah, I mean, honestly, my high school experience was honestly really chill. I think middle school's way more horrible than high school is. I think it's way more awkward and people... I feel like the hormones rage a little bit more in middle school so people are more clique-y and weird, and I feel like I definitely dealt with a lot more drama in middle school than I did in high school. In high school... So I went to Asheville High for high school and it was fucking awesome. There was a huge amount of people of color at the time. It was a different Asheville, but Asheville High was majority Black 00:17:00and there was some Latinx kids, and some White kids, but people from all different walks of life. And it wasn't clique-y or anything. I kind of had friends from all different groups of people. It was also like... High school is when I started, or I played in my first band as well. It was a Ramones worship punk band called the Dirty Queens. And we played maybe three shows, but we all sat together at lunch. It was really cool. We felt cool.

Govinda Wagner:

Nice. You felt cool.

Danny:

We felt really cool. But high school was definitely like... I don't know for me with my upbringing, I grew up with a family that was really poor and really wild and really crazy. My parents never really recovered after my dad left Egypt financially. So we lived in a lot of really weird, fucked up places that shouldn't have been considered homes. We kind of moved all the time. And they 00:18:00didn't have money or anything. So I ended up having to grow up really, really fast and kind of be the adult for my parents who should've been adults.

Danny:

So come middle school and high school, high school specifically at that point, I was so mature and so ready to be on my own that I was just like, "See you," and was never home. I had like... My parents were like the cool parents that let people, kids drink or whatever. So I had friends at my house and stuff, but most of the time I was out somewhere hanging out with my friends, going to shows. That's when I really got into the underground punk and metal scene here and started going to a lot of shows, playing a lot of shows, hanging out with bands. And yeah, I just kind of like was very independent really fucking fast.

Danny:

I am definitely the kind of person who never had nostalgia for being a kid because for me, being a kid was so fucking tough that I was just like, "No, this sucks. I'd rather be an adult and be able to make my own decisions without anyone questioning me." Because I mean, my parents were fucking fantastic parents. I love them to death. But having your parents be fucking coke dealers when you're in high school, and specifically when you're one of the only Colombian kids there. So this is like pre-2010. People were not quite as woke as they are now. So my nickname in high school was definitely Spic-Span, or like if someone was like, "Oh, you're Colombian, huh? Do you know where the cocaine is?" I'm like, "No." And I'm like, actually like my parents are fucking coke dealers.

Govinda Wagner:

No.

Danny:

I'm like, "No, I don't asshole." But I'm like, "Fuck! Why did you have to be a stereotype?" But yeah, I mean, my parents... We were never hungry. We didn't 00:20:00really have places to live a lot of the time, but my parents did their fucking best, but I spent a lot of my time taking care of, making sure everyone was okay, making sure my parents were okay, tucking them in at night when they've got too fucked up, or taking care of my little brother and little sister when they're fighting, and all this shit.

Danny:

So by the time I was feeling like I could be an adult, I was like, "I'm fucking going to be an adult as fast as I fucking can." And I feel like, I don't know, maybe for me at least, I feel like part of that is also part of coming to terms with being queer and being transgender where it's like, "I'm going on this own journey internally for me and I don't really want to express it to my parents because the last thing I want to do is come out to them because that's fucking terrifying. So I'm going to go over there and I'll see you later. See you at dinner. I have my own life, you have yours." So that was kind of high school for me.

Govinda Wagner:

When do you think you started to... I guess, what were sources that you learned about queerness or trans-ness from? Because it sounds like you kind of went through a whole journey with that.

Danny:

Yeah. Definitely I grew up around a lot of queer folks, so there's that, like my parents friends, knowing kids at school. I mean, honestly, fucking the internet, social media, Myspace happening.

Govinda Wagner:

Myspace.

Danny:

YouTube happening. I mean, Myspace-

Govinda Wagner:

What a generation.

Danny:

Seriously, I could, myself and a lot of people, could be way more gay on Myspace than we were in real life. And having internet profiles and being able to fucking talk to people or just express yourself completely, that was a huge thing.

Danny:

There wasn't really, or at least not to my knowledge, I didn't really know anyone who was heavily involved with a gay/straight alliance or anything at Asheville High. I know now there's a lot more of that, but there wasn't really a 00:22:00particular organization. It was more just like being around my friends, being around the punk community, being around people who were expressing themselves in a lot of different ways. That's mostly how I learned about queer terms, seeing representation of queer folks, stuff like that. But I didn't come out as trans publicly until three years ago. I'm 28 now. I'm 28. So, until I was like 25. Because I really didn't know anything about the trans community until I was maybe 21, or at least I didn't know the terminology, I didn't know how to put a name to what I was feeling. I didn't know how to go about any of that, or even 00:23:00that it was fucking possible. You know?

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

So I didn't know that until I was in college. Yeah. And then that's... I do attribute a lot of that to the punk metal scene in Asheville too. There's a lot of really, really cool folks that have been here, are here now, that are really, really good grassroots movers and shakers who do everything they can to keep this community safe for a lot of people. And I've met so many good people at shows and parties, and stuff like that, that really taught me about what it means to be queer, but also to hold spaces open for other people to be queer too.

Govinda Wagner:

Yes. Aims [inaudible 00:24:05]. Talk about it. Tell me a story about some punk 00:24:00shows or queer punk bands.

Danny:

Yeah. Well, there was this one band. They're not together anymore. I still every once in a while talk to the guitarist Sam. We haven't talked in a really long time, but I still follow them on Instagram. But they were called Dick Binge and they were from Olympia. And that was one of the queerest and best shows I've ever seen. It was at the Odditorium. I've known about this band through the internet and just through knowing people or whatever. And they were just very unapologetically queer. Every song was about queerness. They had trans members, non-binary members, gay members, and it was like a punk show covered in glitter. And that was show was crazy.

Danny:

It was them, Fucking Dyke Bitches, who is also another queer punk band, all, 00:25:00it's three fucking dyke bitches. And then the opener was a glam metal band from Australia, which was so odd, but totally worked. And that was like... It was funny because I had never met them before in person. I'd bought stuff from them over the internet or whatever, but I saw them and I think I was like, I was either 20 or just turned 21, and this was... I think I just turned 21, but the Odditorium has always been a huge staple of the community. And before it was the Odditorium, when it was the Get Down, myself and a lot of people used to go there and we used to sneak drinks all the time. It was like wild west Asheville for sure. It was crazy. But then the Odditorium started and thankfully we all turned 21 by that point.

Danny:

This was... The show was at the Odditorium, it was one of those shows where you see everyone from the community come out for it. It was a huge turnout. Everyone 00:26:00was having a blast. And it ended up... So I was talking, I met, I saw the band, I saw Dick Binge and I was like, "Oh my God, I got to say hi to them." So I ended on talking to them and unless I'm bartending or onstage playing a show, I tend to not have great communication skills and I'm pretty fucking awkward. So going up to people is really tough for me. It's like I can... If I don't have something to do with my hands, I don't how to fucking talk to you.

Danny:

So I went up to them and I was so nervous. And they ended up being so fucking cool. And we exchanged addresses and long story short, me and best friend Megan both bought the tapes and Sam had written his address in the tape to give to me and was like, "Let's be pen pals." Megan ended up with my tape, I ended up with hers. She took her tape to Oakland and lost it in the desert, so I never ended up being a pen pal with him, but I found him on Instagram years later.

Govinda Wagner:

The years lost.

Danny:

Yeah. I was talking to the band, it was maybe like five or six, people were getting to the show early because we all just wanted to hang out and drink and get wild and stuff. And I was talking to the band and all of a sudden, everyone's like, "Oh hey, we're on the news." And we're like, "What?" I guess... It wasn't [Ultamont 00:27:26] at the time, it was... I don't remember. It was whatever was there before the brewery across from The Odditorium, some venue or something. I don't remember what it was called, but they I guess called the police because the Odditorium marquee said Dick Binge and Fucking Dyke Bitches. Then all of a sudden it was on WLOS as we're all sitting there. And the band is like, "Holy shit! We're on the news already. We haven't even unpacked our gear. We're not even playing yet."

Govinda Wagner:

No such thing as bad press.

Danny:

I mean, I still... Every once in a while that Facebook memory will come up and everybody will be like, "Oh shit, do you remember?"

Govinda Wagner:

That's so funny.

Danny:

But yeah, the Odditorium obviously was a huge place, and then the Murder Basement, which was on Hanover Street. I knew a lot of people there. And at that time, I was in college and just really doing my own thing. I still, I lived with my parents because I didn't want to pay for a dorm, but I didn't live there. I just lived wherever the fuck ever I was. And so I was almost every night at a punk house, a punk show, or traveling to some other punk house in some other state.

Danny:

So there was the Murder Basement, there was the Goblin Hole, which was on Argyle. There was Brown House before any of those, but Brown House burnt down. There was a huge slew of punk houses in Montford. And then a little later on, there was the Crooked Wood on Crescent Street off of [Miramen 00:29:03], which was also a speakeasy. All of those places hosted shows all the time. And I got 00:29:00to know all of those people really well. And that's where I also met a lot of people from the Raleigh area. So we kind of had this back and forth between... It was Raleigh, Charlotte and Asheville had this whole triangle of people just playing each other's houses and traveling around.

Danny:

And then, I met my best friend Megan playing a show. She used to be in a band called Infinite Boner and she was the vocalist. And when I met Megan, that's when we just started traveling around a bunch. So in 2012 we went to Skatopia in Rutland, Ohio, which was probably one of the most wild times I've ever had in my life. There's a documentary about Skatopia online. It's called 88 Acres of 00:30:00Anarchy. Essentially, it's this guy Bruce, he was a semi-pro skater in the '80s and he bought 88 acres in literally fucking nowhere Rutland, Ohio. Which is right across, it's right on the border of Ohio and Virginia. It's right next to the town where the Mothman happens. So I've gone over that bridge.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:30:33].

Danny:

Yeah. It's weird.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:30:35].

Danny:

Luckily, I did not get pink eye.

Govinda Wagner:

That's good.

Danny:

But so he bought this 88 acres and most of it is... So he built a huge skate park there, but most of it's pretty empty. It's just like a big-ass field. And towards the entrance there's another skate park-ish kind of structure called the Death Bowl. It's a 30-foot drop. And he's built a structure around that, so on 00:31:00either side they host shows. And then underneath they have like a sort of kitchen where they serve barbecue sandwiches out of the glove that the person picks it. So they pick it up with the glove and then turn the glove inside out and then serve you the sandwich that way. It's not sanitary by any means.

Danny:

And then there's a slew of different buildings. There's one trailer that's completely and entirely wallpapered with PBR cases and people... There's a handful of people that live there, but they host two festivals a year. One's called the Backyard Blowout and one's called the Bowl Bash. And I went to the Backyard Blowout and it's like sort of a yearly trek. I don't want to call it like a pilgrimage, but it's sort of a pilgrimage for a lot of folks on the crustier side of the punk spectrum.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

And you just go there and camp out and see shows. And we went there because Megan's band Infinite Boner was playing. So we just drove to Ohio in a van and 00:32:00camped out at this place for a week. And I, one, witnessed the biggest fights I've ever seen in my life. Two, I witnessed the crustiest, punkiest people I've ever seen in my life.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

And three, lit a car on fire because they do that every year. But also, it was like a whole nother realm of like, I don't know, coming... At the time, I had just broken up with my first really serious relationship with someone. And at that point, that relationship kind of outed me for my parents because it was a serious relationship. So at this point they knew. So that was my first girlfriend girlfriend and we broke up and I was in a really bad spot. So I met these really cool people, went to fucking Ohio.

Danny:

And then met a whole nother realm of queer folks who were just like pansexual and would like do whatever with whoever and identified as all different kind of things. But also, people who were working in social justice, or were concerned about things like harm reduction, or concerned about things like as far as keeping communities safe and stuff, and not everyone there was... I wouldn't say Skatopia's like a haven for people who are really woke because there's a lot of really fucked up people that go there, but I met a lot of really woke people there too.

Danny:

And then that's... Being thrown into the punk scene then was really when I started paying attention to grassroots activism, I started to meet more people who do a lot more for the community. There are a couple people who come to mind 00:34:00when I think about activism for the queer community and communities of color here, but I don't want to name them because they don't want to get doxxed.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

And are intentionally private. But there is some people in this city who still live and reside here who go unnamed for security reasons, but have done a lot, a lot for this community to keep it safe. And I met them through the punk community. And yeah, I mean, that... It was weird. When I was in high school or whatever, it's like being punk and being into metal and stuff was like, "Yeah, fuck you. I'm angry about shit and nothing matters." And then I later on realized no, it's actually... You give a shit about things, you just don't like how the powers that be are taking care of it, because they're not. They're not taking care of it. So how do we do this on our own? How do we make these safe spaces on our own? How do we make people feel safe?

Danny:

That was the first time I ever became part of a network of people who were able 00:35:00to count on each other for a place to stay. I went to New Orleans maybe like five or six years ago, and the only reason I ended up being there for a week because I had met these people at Skatopia who were like, "We'll house you up. Whatever." So that was the first time that I was like... and at that point, I was living on my own and able to house people myself too. I think at this point, I think I've housed at least three trans folks who were kicked out of their house, which is really cool.

Danny:

Not all of them ended in the greatest ways because sometimes someone tries to stay a little bit longer than they should, but it does feel really good to be able to know that I've helped people get on their feet. But yeah, I mean, that's 00:36:00leads up to... So okay. I graduated... No, no, no. I was still in college. So I was still in college, I had just gotten the job at the Crow & Quill through [Wifey 00:36:19] actually because I was helping her form... Well, I was helping her with another group of people who were trying to form a girls' rock camp in Asheville.

Govinda Wagner:

Oh.

Danny:

And I was like, "Yeah, I want to be a part of this." And we made it... My biggest concern too was like this isn't just for AFAB people, right? And it wasn't. And it's not now. But in the process of those meetings, I was about, I was in my last semester of college and I was out of a job and I wasn't going to be getting any refund money anytime soon. So I got the interview for the Crow & Quill through Wifey at one of those meetings. And I had never met Casey before in my life. I didn't know any of the people involved in the bar.

Danny:

I showed up to my interview pretty formally dressed, which is really funny in hindsight because I've never worn anything but skinny jeans and a t-shirt. But yeah, Casey gave me the job. I had just turned 21. Casey gave me the job as a bar back there. And I had worked under the table at bars for my parents before and stuff so I was somewhat comfortable, but I was... it was all under the table work. I always had someone supervising me. This was my first real bar job. That's when I met all the folks in the goth community here and Casey's crew, and all that stuff, and that's when I met Glow. And that's definitely when I first met a lot of polyamorous people that I had never met before, was Sir Casey and the whole crew.

Danny:

But yeah, my first night at the Crow & Quill I looked like Bambi caught in 00:38:00headlights. I had no fucking clue what I was doing. There was a line out the door because everyone had caught wind that this new bar had opened up. And Casey's partner at the time who had helped him sort of open the place, she used to drink quite a lot at the bar so she would get pretty lit but always come over and check on me. And I was sitting at the door and I'm just trying to check IDs and send people in. And I just turned 21, I have no business checking people's IDs, but here I am.

Danny:

And she walked over and she's got a cocktail in her hand, whatever. She walks over and she's like, "Yeah, you're doing a really great job. Just be a little bit more stern. Make sure people know you're in charge." I'm like, "All right, all right, I got it. I got it." So then keep doing it, keep doing it. And like 20 minutes later she walks over and she goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're doing a really good job. Could you smile maybe a little bit?" So it was like... I mean, they're like too much of a soft baby or way too hard. [inaudible 00:39:04].

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:39:04].

Danny:

But yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like the Crow & Quill has so much to do with me being comfortable being so queer and so open about stuff, and also it has a lot to do with me coming out as trans because that was... Casey gave us free rein to... Yes, we are a business. Yes, we are a bar. Yes, we make drinks for people and take their money. But first and foremost, we are a safe space, we are a safer space. Although we're serving alcohol, our first job is to keep people safe and make sure our people feel good here, that everyone's welcome until you fuck up. So he allowed us as a staff to be able to make decisions with all the authority. So we were able... Casey's obviously queer, obviously really into the community, but being there from day one, he didn't, I don't believe that he intended for that space to be as queer as it ended up being.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I think that he happened to hire the right people who kind of turned it into that. It was like, the Crow & Quill when it first opened was definitely, it was catered toward the goth community, it was catered toward people who wanted to be at bars with no one else around. It was for the locals, it was for his friends, it was for everyone who wanted that sort of nostalgic Joli Rouge thing, and he just happened to hire a group of fucking wackos who were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great, but can we do this too?"

Govinda Wagner:

Well, how queer can it be?

Danny:

Yeah. I mean, it was honestly, between me and Glow, and Wifey, and Shelly worked there for a good while. And then Liam and we had F working, and Bonnie worked there, Lauren Phillips worked there, a huge slew of people worked there who just like... All of us just kept bringing in more and more people and putting in our 00:41:00input, putting in our input. And there was, I think... I trained as a bar back for a year and then became a bartender. And it was almost right after I became a bartender that I started talking to Glow and Casey lightly about having the drag night there.

Danny:

And I had wanted to do it since I fucking started working there because I was like, "If I can't do it here, I got to figure out where I'm going to do it." For a while me and Glow were talking about what if we did it in the attic room of Loretta's Sandwich Shop? What if they let us rent that out? Or can we do it in the alleyway? How could we make a fucking drag night happen here? Because for early on with the Crow & Quill Casey was really, really stern about the aesthetic and how he wanted the place to look. And I totally get it. That's what's made that business successful.

Govinda Wagner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Danny:

He kept to what he wanted. It's very... It's not uniform because it's unique, but it's very concise and clear. And I didn't think he would go for it. And for 00:42:00a while he didn't. Not because it's a drag show but I think just because he needed to see a real business plan for that.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

And I also didn't know who was going to do it with me. I was like, "Okay, I want to do this thing, but I can't do it on my own. I can't bartend and run a drag show on my own." And then John Paul got hired and late night sitting at the bar, sipping on whiskey and talking about drag, finally I was like, "Do you want to do this thing with me?" And they were like, "Yeah, abso-fucking-lutely."

Danny:

So then we finally talked to Casey and gave him enough of a plan for him to be like, "All right, let's try this." And the first drag night we had was, I remember it was in November and I guess this was like four years ago, so 2016. No, no, it was 2017. It was November of 2017 because my mom had passed away in August and after my mom passed away was when I took the, what do they call it, 00:43:00the position of the menu manager or whatever. So I had a little bit more power. So I was like, "All right, I'm going to do this now."

Danny:

So it was November of 2017, we had our first drag show. Maybe like 10 people showed up. It was even really a drag show. It wasn't a drag show at all because we had kind of convinced Casey to let us do it by saying it wasn't going to be a drag show, it was going to be a drag night. Because the last thing he ever wanted to see was a bunch of cis white gay dudes lip syncing at the bar. He was like, "I will not have that." I was like, "Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. Got it." So it wasn't even a drag show. We were like, "We're just having a drag night. People can come in drag and maybe here and there someone might get up on a mic and do something."

Danny:

Glow showed up in this silver robe that I actually I have the robe that she showed up in. She had this silver robe and she had mint julep mask all over her 00:44:00face and curlers and her platinum blonde hair and she read a bedtime story to everyone. And then there was a couple of friends here and there that showed. And then these two gorgeous, immaculate, polished drag queens showed up and they were big, just linebacker-built houses, like giant drag queens. And we were so excited to have them. And one of them had been a professional drag queen for a long time, and the other one it was her first outing as a drag queen. And she had a $400 fucking chest plate on. So professional, they looked amazing, and they drank every single bottle of white wine that the bar had.

Danny:

And seriously, had they not come to that drag night, I don't think it would've ever happened because the only reason we made money is because they literally drank every... I'm not kidding you. We ran out of white wine. All of it. Not 00:45:00just like Chardonnay, not just like Pinot, every single bottle. And they walked home. They were fine. I don't know how. So then we did... The next one we did was a Christmas one. And I think it was maybe three or four in until we finally had an actual show. And I was running sound, bartending, and JP was hosting and doing door. And it was not fucking easy at all. It was so difficult.

Govinda Wagner:

Running, running, running. Running, running, running.

Danny:

Oh God, I would go into the bar at 5 PM. No, I go into the bar at 3 PM because the bar opened at five. 3 PM, setup part of the drag night because I didn't want to take away from the opening bartenders, Crow & Quill experience, setup part of the drag night and then come back at seven. My shift usually didn't start until 00:46:00nine or 10, come back at seven, finish setting up. And then from the minute my shift started until 2:30 at night, I didn't stop moving. There was just so much to do. I don't even remember who are... Oh okay. So I know Ivy definitely performed, [D-Minor 00:46:30], aka Mikey, performed.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny:

I think Smudge was either show one or show two for sure. Who else did we have? There was this... I forget their drag name, but one of Glow's friends Nick, they had their own kind of crazy performance that they did. There wasn't that many acts. We didn't make that much money, but people really liked it. And I remember when we started to have shows and people started to come in, we started to have 00:47:00more and more people coming in who we'd never before. Not friends of friends, not someone who was like, "Oh, I know blah, blah, blah." People that I didn't know who somehow heard about it that would come and be like, "This was the first place that I felt fully comfortable being non-binary or being trans."

Danny:

We had people coming to drag night to try on their identities, which was so cool. It felt great. And we also... Part of it I think was just such a good group of people and so many people were coming who made that an amazing night. Part of it was also because I think they actually saw us physically throw out people who were being awful.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

We got [crosstalk 00:47:51].

Govinda Wagner:

I've been there on those nights.

Danny:

Yes. It didn't happen... The first night I remember it happening, well not the first time, but one of the most prominent ones was it was one of the first nights that Lane performed and there was this policy at the Crow. One thing that 00:48:00I learned bartending was that you can't judge a book by its cover ever. There are people who come into the bar who look like the normiest, yuppiest, or redneckiest person and are so nice and so welcoming to everyone. And then there's people that come in looking like me who are complete assholes. So we always let... We did a judgment call at the door, we talked to people, we'd have a conversation with them. We want to make sure people are going to feel comfortable. But we weren't going to not let someone in for just looking a certain way.

Danny:

So we always had tourists or some yuppies, or just straight couples coming in for drag night and having a blast. But there was... My most notable memory of kicking someone out of the drag night. It was two couples, white, straight, cis, you know. And I think they had come to see the show, or at least they heard 00:49:00about there was going to be a drag show and they wanted to come see it. And I remember Lane coming up to me, and I was bartending, and I was like, "Hey, what's up?" And they were like, "Oh yeah, there's that couple over there." She pointed out whatever, was like, "Yeah, she called someone a faggot, but I gave her a warning." And I was like, "Oh no. And Lane's like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "No, there's no warning." So Lane's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "No, no, no. They're gone. There is no warning. You don't do that. You don't it once. You can't do that at all."

Danny:

And I think I grabbed Ivy. I was like, "Ivy, come on let's kick someone out." And Ivy was like, "Fuck yeah!" And we went over there and just immediately kicked this woman out. And I remember her saying something to me along the lines of like, "Well, you know where I come from, it's just a joke." And I'm like, "Where I come from, it's not. That's not a joke. Get out."

Govinda Wagner:

No.

Danny:

I think that was the first time I remember kicking someone out of drag night. 00:50:00But it didn't happen very frequently, which was awesome. So I had met Haley when I first started working at the Crow & Quill. Not through the Crow & Quill, we actually met at the Odditorium. But Haley definitely was my biggest support with coming out as transgender, helped me come to terms with how I was feeling, helped learn the language. Haley's been a huge, huge influence on me learning and navigating queerness. Then we started doing drag night and more and more folks were coming in. I was meeting more and more people.

Danny:

And then, yeah, that's why I decided to come out publicly at drag night I think. Just because that was my safe space. That was the family I wanted to come out to. And I didn't come out to my parents when I came out then. I actually didn't 00:51:00come out as trans to my family until last year when I started T. And part of it is because I knew that I couldn't come out as trans to my mom. My mom was a cool person. By no means was she transphobic or homophobic, but like I said, there's that weird thing in the Latinx community and there's that weird machismo thing. And even when I came out to her as gay, she told me not to tell my [foreign language 00:51:29] or tell my aunt or anything. My [foreign language 00:51:32] found out on her own and was totally cool. And I couldn't figure out why my mom was freaking out about it.

Danny:

I realized I don't blame her for this because I get she's from a different time, but she was cool with trans people, she was cool with queer people as long as it wasn't her kid because that's not the life that she envisioned for us. You know? So I just couldn't come out to her. I couldn't. And a couple years before I had... When I had come out to a small group of friends, it was Liam and Caden, Haley and our roomie, Miranda. Those were the first people I actually said that 00:52:00I'm trans to.

Danny:

I kind of made the joke that I couldn't come out until my parents died, but I actually fucking meant that. So I remember when my mom passed after the grief process and the mourning process and stuff like, me and Haley talked about it a little bit. It was like, "Well, are you ready to come out yet?" And I was like, "I don't know." Part of me was and then the other part of me was like I can't do it yet because I was dealing with so many repercussions of my mom's death.

Danny:

My mom was the matriarch of the family. She kept everything together. So when she passed, me and Haley actually ended up moving out of our apartment and moving into my dad's place because I knew they couldn't take care of themselves and they needed help to figure out how to figure out life again. So I didn't come out to them until I... I kind of forced myself to. I was like, "I'm going to fucking start HRT and I'm going to have to because I'm going to grow facial hair and my voice is going to drop. And things are going to be different." And I can't just be like, "Oh, it's nothing. Don't worry about it."

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:53:04].

Danny:

Yeah, I remember I took my first T shot and then the next week I was like all right, I've got to do it. So I went over to my dad's place, and it was dad, my grandmother and my little sister. And my little sister had also recently come out as queer. And it was a kind of a big fucking thing. She was the baby and she's my dad's little girl. So he kind of had a little bit of a freak out, but they were cool at that point.

Danny:

And I so, so nervous. And I'm just standing there and I'm sweating, my heart's beating and fuck me, I'm just like... And did it like... Just vomited it out. And everyone's just sitting there. And my dad's like, "Okay." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "I think I knew it. I don't care. It's like whatever." And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? I've been wracking my brain for years to the thought of doing this and you're just going to be like, 'Okay, it's just okay,'?" And he was like, "Yeah, it's okay." And ever since-

Govinda Wagner:

Awesome.

Danny:

Even before that, he used to always call me his first-born son as a joke because I, not to say that my brother is effeminate, but I'm definitely like... My dad counts on me more for taking care of business than he does my brother, so he's always called me my first-born son. And he's like, "I've called you my first-born son." He's like, "It's true. Whatever." And it was very sweet and I really appreciated it, but I was also kind of angry because it was just... There was a negative reaction. They still have trouble with pronouns here and there, but he's trying.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. I had a whole speech rehearsed in my head. I was going to-

Danny:

No, seriously.

Govinda Wagner:

Ready to counter.

Danny:

Oh God, I still like, I feel how nervous I felt sitting there in the kitchen. And they were just like, they literally were just like... Nothing. But yeah, I mean, then I also came out online so long distance family and friends and stuff 00:55:00like that. And it feels so much better being out.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

It feels so much better being on HRT too. You know?

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Now, in hindsight, I'm like, "Wow, I wish I had done this earlier," but I'm also kind of glad I didn't. Because I know, I have friends who were like, "I've been on T," or, "I've been on E since I was 18 and blah, blah, blah," and all this stuff. I didn't start hormones until I was 27, but I'm kind of glad that I didn't. I think I needed to navigate my own personality without that. I definitely don't ever want my identity to rely on the fact that I'm trans. It's a huge part of me, my queer existence and my queer being is a huge part of who I am. I consider my queerness and being trans as part of my heritage. It's not by 00:56:00blood, but that's our chosen family. But I don't want that to be my only identity. I want it to be just a tidbit. It's a huge part of who I am, but I want to rely on who I personally am without just being, "Oh, hi I'm Danny. I'm just trans."

Danny:

And I've seen some folks who are younger, they do rely on being trans as being like, "That's my identity. I am trans. Everything I am is trans, or everything I am is queer." Which is like full support, absolutely, be open, be who you are, but also makes sure you're figuring out everything else too. Having a mental breakdown at 25 and realizing you never dealt with any of the other shit you have going on, that's not good. That's not fucking good. And I also think 00:57:00nowadays it's definitely a lot easier for people. I was kind of excited when my little sister came out because I was like, "Wow, I can really hold your hand through this because I've done it."

Govinda Wagner:

Yay. Awesome.

Danny:

I can hold a space for you. I can tell you... You can ask me advice about this if you want. And I'm excited for that. I'm excited to be able to continue in my transition and present more masculine. And I hope that some baby trans guy comes up to me and is like, "All right, I got some questions." And I'll be like, "Absolutely. Ask me anything."

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 00:57:39]. Yeah. Let me ask you the million-dollar question as I think about it.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

How do you define queerness? What is it that attracts you to the label of queer rather than any other one?

Danny:

Well, first of all, this is a multi-level question, or multi-level answer I guess. First of all, I always hated the term lesbian. I never identified as a lesbian when I was female presenting. I was never really female presenting 00:58:00because I've always presented pretty masc, but I hate that term. I know I'm not the only person that hates that term. I don't just hate because of like, ugh, lesbian it's a weird word. I think it has some connotations to it. There tends to be like... I've met a lot of first-wave feminist turf-y lesbians in my life and I don't like that.

Danny:

I tend to gravitate towards queer or gay. Queer more so now. I think that queer is one of more encompassing term. I like the idea of it unifying people of different sexual identities, people of different gender identities. I think that in numbers we are able to get more done and help more people. I definitely don't... Obviously, there can be riffs in different communities, but I really like the idea of having this queer community that we can all support each other, 00:59:00we all have these things in common, we can all help each other in different ways.

Danny:

I just, I say gay sometimes. It's a little bit more complicated and loaded now saying that now that I am identify as a trans man and partner is non-binary and AFAB. I just, I think that it's a all encompassing term that includes people from all different walks of life who have gone through a similar experience when it comes to gender and sexual identity.

Danny:

It's that feeling when like you go out of town or you go visit family or whatever, and you're around a bunch of straight people and you never realized how different it was being around a bunch of straight people until you are around a bunch of straight people who definitely don't identify as queer at all. 01:00:00And you're like, "Oh wow, wow, wow. This feels weird. This feels really weird." And then you come back home and you're around your next door neighbor is gay and two doors down there's this non-binary couple and over here is the old lesbians who have lived on the same corner for 50 years. And you feel so much better and so much safer, and you can actually have a conversation with these people and they understand where you're coming from. I think that's what queerness is for me, is like that semi-shared experience.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 01:00:40] bubble.

Danny:

Yeah. Well, I don't want it to be a bubble, but it is a bit of a bubble.

Govinda Wagner:

A bubble.

Danny:

It's an expanding [crosstalk 01:00:45].

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 01:00:45] or even [crosstalk 01:00:47].

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

And it feels different.

Danny:

It does.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 01:00:50].

Danny:

It feels different and obviously, all of us are from so many different places and identify as so many different things. Like sexuality's a spectrum, gender is a spectrum, but it's a different feeling being around folks who get that. 01:01:00There's a thing there. I don't know what to name it, but there's this thing that you get when you have that.

Govinda Wagner:

It.

Danny:

Yeah, you have it. It's a thing that you get when you have it. Yeah. I mean, that's not a really great answer, but it's that feeling.

Govinda Wagner:

Oh, it's a wonderful thing. That's one of my favorite questions because it's definitely, in my experience of the world as a queer non-binary person, some people really don't understand the term and don't like it. Some people will tell you like, "That's a slur and you can't use that word." And I'm like, "[crosstalk 01:01:47]."

Danny:

Oh yeah, that whole thing.

Govinda Wagner:

There's a whole other thing going on now. I know it's probably a generational divide but we have to learn and grow and change.

Danny:

I mean, terms have their own thing going on, especially terms when it comes to 01:02:00the queer community. Queer I think is one of those terms that we won back, but there are other terms we haven't. I had a ethics professor in college. Her name was Grace. She was fantastic. She was also a wild lady who just was... We called her hurricane Grace. And she was a really, really great ethics professor. There was one other, there were a couple of queer people in that class. It's UNC, it's a majority White. A lot of people are pretty cis and straight. Nowadays, probably not as straight, but most of the classes I had had White, straight people in them.

Danny:

There was a larger community of queer people then there was when I was in high school, but there was also it's the first time people got away from home of course they're going to be fucking gay, or at least they're going to try it. So it was myself and two other people in this class identified as queer openly. And one of them was... She wasn't a bad person, I just didn't get along with her as 01:03:00much. She was just like a little in your face about it. Not about queerness, just about everything.

Danny:

And then the other person was Reed who've I've lost touch with a little bit, but they a couple years back moved to Atlanta and were part of the WUSSY mag team for a while. And I met Reed at this ethics class. I used to drive a old decommissioned Bluebird taxicab that was before that and old decommissioned Crown Vic police interceptor, but it was painted the blue and yellow from the Bluebird taxi, so people used to hail me all the time thinking I was a taxicab. And I had put a sticker on the back that said, "Queer punks," and I had a bunch of all these other stickers and everyone used to call it the queer cab and I used to get little love notes from people. I [crosstalk 01:04:00].

Govinda Wagner:

Aww.

Danny:

They'd be like, "Oh your car is so cool. Blah, blah, blah," all this stuff. And after I met Reed, I realized that he had put a couple of those notes on my queer 01:04:00cab car. So we became friends and we kind of became friends in the way of like... We didn't really hang out outside of class, but we both definitely teamed up on everyone else in the class when someone said something that we did not agree with.

Govinda Wagner:

Strength in numbers.

Danny:

Right. We were talking-

Govinda Wagner:

You were bond together.

Danny:

Because Grace had brought... She didn't do this assignment. To clarify, she did not do this assignment. She was talking about this assignment because she was trying... It was the intro to ethics, whatever. She was talking about what it is. And she had been talking about a ethics professor that she admired who had done this assignment with his class. And it was to make a coming out letter to your parents to put yourself in the shoes of someone who's coming out. And automatically me and Reed are like, "No. No, no, no. Not good. Not good." But most of the class was like, "Why? Why isn't it good?" We had to explain like, 01:05:00"Well one, you shouldn't be forcing people to come out," which is awful.

Govinda Wagner:

Everybody wants to or has to.

Danny:

Right?

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Two, you're trying to make this entire experience just in a letter saying that everyone just writes a coming out letter. That's not the case for everyone. And three, you're never going to understand this. If you're never going to do this, if you don't feel this, you're never going to understand this. It's not about you being like, "Well, I understand." It should be about you being an ally and being like, "Well, I understand that there is a struggle. I don't personally understand it, but I support you."

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I mean, and we've seen this a lot now, especially with the BLM movement of like the whole White savior complex of people being like, "I understand your struggle." Well, you don't. You don't understand that struggle. You never will understand the struggle. Understand that you won't understand it and understand that you're here to support. Shut up and put your body in front of the people who need it.

Danny:

So we had this whole conversation in class and we started talking about queerness. And we ended up going and talking about terms of queerness. So about 01:06:00how the queer community took the term queer back, that it used to be a derogatory term at some point and then now it's not. Now we use it as an identifier, how some groups have taken the F-word back. I personally don't like to use that word because I think it can trigger people. But some people use it. Some people have taken it back.

Danny:

I think the term is lesbian is not a very popular term. Some people have taken back the word dyke. Not everyone has. It's just weird. There are certain words we've been able to own and other words that we haven't. And I think that it also goes into how the actual queer community has kind of evolved over time. Like, "Ooh, we have strength in numbers now. We have people understand it. Let's take back this term now. Let's get rid of all the shitty stuff that's been dealt to 01:07:00us." Yeah, terms are weird. Identity's weird.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I still don't understand everything. I don't think I still fully know how to identify myself. I consider myself a graysexual trans man. I don't tend to be very sexually active. I kind of have an awkwardness when it comes to sex. But I do like sex, I just don't do it very often. So like graysexual. I identify as a trans man because I want to present masc, that's how I'm comfortable presenting. That's how I identify myself, but I don't want to be a cis man either. That's seems awful.

Govinda Wagner:

[inaudible 01:07:55] I am not that thing.

Danny:

Yeah, I just don't want to be [crosstalk 01:08:00].

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 01:08:00].

Danny:

I just don't want to present as cis. I don't... The more comfortable I've gotten in my masculinity, the more comfortable I've gotten in the feminine areas of 01:08:00myself. Like the more I'm able to present as a man the more I'm like, "Well, let's throw on some eyeliner. Let's throw on some fucking dangly earrings. Let's throw on some nail polish."

Govinda Wagner:

Counteract that.

Danny:

The more masculine I'm able to get, the more flamboyant and effeminate it's going to get too. Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Maybe that's the queer vibe is kind of just like I just don't want to bounce over into male presenting-ness.

Danny:

Right.

Govinda Wagner:

And people look at me and are like, "Oh, hello sir. You're a man."

Danny:

Right.

Govinda Wagner:

I still want that aura of queerness.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Like, "Hi, I'm [inaudible 01:08:42] this world."

Danny:

Right? Totally. I just I don't want to fit the binary ever. Yes, I want to... I am transitioning. I'm doing that to become more masculine to look more masc presenting, but I don't want to fit the binary. I never do. I hate the binary. A lot of people hate the binary. But I also know trans people who want to fit the binary and absolutely, yeah, do it, pass as much as you want. Totally. It's just 01:09:00not for me. It's too much... I don't know. It's not the queerness. I want the queerness.

Govinda Wagner:

I want the queer.

Danny:

Down with the queerness.

Govinda Wagner:

My experience also with labels and I'm marginally involved in some queer punkery [crosstalk 01:09:23].

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

And it's usually that community really is like punks and kind of anarchy queers that are more into some of the, I don't want to say edgier labels, but stuff that I don't hear people say like lesbian and dyke and stuff like that. I don't usually hear those terms outside of queer punk communities. I think they're really [crosstalk 01:09:46].

Danny:

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Being like, "Yeah, I'm a [inaudible 01:09:52]."

Danny:

Right.

Govinda Wagner:

[crosstalk 01:09:52] about it and [inaudible 01:09:52].

Danny:

No, I definitely I know quite a few queer punks who are like, "Yeah, I'm just a straight up dyke." I'm like, "Cool."

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Like, "Awesome."

Govinda Wagner:

I think that's just that desire to be off the grid, off the binary.

Danny:

Yes.

Govinda Wagner:

And it's like I am being actively queer and taking that level of expression.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

In a place where you would call me this and I'm okay with that.

Danny:

There are also like... I think that there are pronouns that I still know of, but I've never met anyone. Like the Z pronouns, I don't think I've met anyone that uses Z pronouns, but I know people do it. And I think there are other pronouns that I don't even know about.

Govinda Wagner:

Oh, there's always pronouns.

Danny:

There's always pronouns.

Govinda Wagner:

There is [inaudible 01:10:40] nebulas and things like that. We're getting out there. I love that.

Danny:

Yeah. I've just, I've defaulted to they to the point where I refer to everyone as they.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. I've [crosstalk 01:10:53].

Danny:

And it's not necessarily a good thing. It's a good thing, but it's not always a good thing.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Most of the people I know I think are pretty cool if you identify them as they 01:11:00and they might correct you, whatever, but I have met people who have identified as they, or someone else I know has identified as they and they've been offended.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

There's this trans women that used to come to the Crow & Quill when we were open who's really cool. She kind of became a little bit of a regular, but one of my bar backs once accidentally referred to her as they and she was like, "Nope!" And went off about it. And they were like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And she's like, "How dare you!" I mean, she's also an... She's an older trans woman. She's spent her life passing, and I'm sure not only because she wanted to but because she had to, and she's obviously put a lot of time into her transition and was feeling that that offended all of the work that she had done.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. I hear that. I hear that.

Danny:

I haven't seen it happen a lot, but I've definitely seen people get offended by it.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. Queers. We're not perfect.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

But it's fun to date them. We don't have gender all figured out either. You got to ask pronouns. Period. Moral of the story. You got to ask pronouns. [crosstalk 01:12:22].

Danny:

Yeah, it's weird. I've definitely started to, not only myself ask for pronouns more and more frequently, but been in situations where I didn't expect people to ask for pronouns.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I got my pronouns asked at the fucking DMV. That was cool. That was really cool.

Govinda Wagner:

They print that on licenses now when you're [crosstalk 01:12:41].

Danny:

No. No, no, no.

Govinda Wagner:

But that's nice I guess.

Danny:

But I was waiting in line at the DMV one time and I was trying to get some, I don't know, something for my tag or something, I was waiting in line and this guy kind of cut in front of me. He didn't know it. There were two lines, but I was up next. He went to go and the women was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no." And looked at me and was like, "They were there before you." And I was like, "Okay," 01:13:00and then I went up to her. And she was like, "Pronouns?" I was like, "This is cool." She's like an older kind of redneck-y lady too. And I'm like, "This is fucking awesome."

Govinda Wagner:

Okay Asheville.

Danny:

Yeah. Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

That happened to me at a Belk. I went to pick up a package.

Danny:

What?

Govinda Wagner:

And the stewardess lady, package-ess.

Danny:

Yeah, I like package-ess.

Govinda Wagner:

Package-ess. And was like, "Hi, what are your pronouns?" And I was like... [inaudible 01:13:33]. I work a day job. I don't know that I was advertising, but yes, thank you. [crosstalk 01:13:38].

Danny:

I mean, it's always, it's a bit of a treat when it happens. Every time it happens, I'm like, "Small victory for everyone." I know at some point it's going to become a thing where it's just so normal that it's not going to feel that way anymore, but I do kind of like in the time that I have lived where it's like I can go from not seeing any queer people at all, ever and feeling like a fucking weirdo, to feeling like normie straight people are weirdos.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, this feels like a good natural stopping point unless you have one last big fancy story to push for me [crosstalk 01:14:21].

Danny:

No, I've talked a lot more than I thought I would.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. I really love that.

Danny:

And I haven't seen you in a long time.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. And I loved hearing some of your stories. I think you shared some really poignant cool stuff. And I don't think anyone else is going to give us some insight into like queer punk Asheville as much as you did just now. That's really cool.

Danny:

If I remember more I can send you more. There's a lot of good old... That's one thing, total sidebar, but I was talking to my bandmate Jamie and... Before I say this, speaking of bands, we got to jam sometime.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

But we were talking about how obviously bands aren't playing right now really, like kind of messed up a lot of, or at least halted and kind of messed up a lot of stuff for the music community everywhere with coronavirus and everything 01:15:00shutting down and social distancing. Me and Jamie didn't practice for three months. And I know bands that still aren't practicing, are still not able to. And we were just kind of talking about how's this going to affect Asheville specifically? The Mothlight closed down.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

A couple other places closed down. Sly Grog is struggling right now. Everyone's struggling right now. And I'm really, really sad to see a lot of those places go. I have so many good memories from Mothlight. Not only playing there but going there as an attendee of someone else's show and just so many good memories. But what if all of this happening also means that it could be a resurgence of the underground scene.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Because the thing about like Sly Grog, Mothlight, Odditorium, and Static Age and all these places, if they struggle, if any one of them shut them down, which one of them already has, that's one less place for heavy bands to play because 01:16:00Asheville has a long history of building itself up off of its local community and then kicking that local community out when it gets big.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Aka Orange Peel huge example.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

The Orange Peel's built from the local scene and now you hardly have a local band play there. And if you want to play there, you have to play their club first. Whatever. Anyways, up until maybe five years ago, there were at least 10 punk houses running in Asheville at any given moment, and now I think maybe there's two and I haven't been to either of them. I'm kind of excited to see when a vaccine happens and this stuff opens up, what if we like, because Asheville pushed the scene underground again, what if we have an underground scene again? That would be kind of cool.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I'd be way into it. I haven't played a basement in forever. I'm so excited. I mean, I'm a little older now so I might just be in the back with my arms 01:17:00crossed, but I'll be that guy.

Govinda Wagner:

[inaudible 01:17:12], "I remember when we had underground scenes."

Danny:

Oh God. I remember it was a couple years back where the first time I went to a show where I did mosh shows. Like, "Oh fuck, I'm old."

Govinda Wagner:

I'm too old for this.

Danny:

Well, it was just like that moment where it was just like, "Oh, that used to be really fun but I don't want to do that right now." I'm like, "Fuck, I don't want to do that right now? Who am I?" That being said, so many years have-

Govinda Wagner:

Now I'm concerned.

Danny:

... of [crosstalk 01:17:36] have kept me from tripping on my ass so many times. You can trip me; I will not fall. I'll look silly for a second, but I learned to not fall from being in lots of mosh pits.

Govinda Wagner:

Nice. That's so awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

There'll be a spot on that form also, if there's anything we talked about tonight that you think of that you have a cool picture or something, we have a digital archive where you can donate stuff to.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Or an [crosstalk 01:18:06].

Danny:

I think I have a lot of show pictures.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

I definitely have some pictures from the Dick Binge show.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Somewhere. So I'll find those and I'll send them.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah, there's a link. If you have them digital, you can just upload them right to it and that goes to the archive. But if you have paper stuff like flyers or playbills or something from shows.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

Or event posters, or-

Danny:

I definitely have flyers.

Govinda Wagner:

... some from the Crow & Quill about Sundays Are A Drag maybe.

Danny:

Oh yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

With some of those [crosstalk 01:18:32].

Danny:

I have a lot of drag night pictures too. For sure.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah.

Danny:

Yes.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah, that'd be fun to put in there.

Danny:

Awesome.

Govinda Wagner:

Especially [crosstalk 01:18:37] Asheville's queer punk and drag show and stuff.

Danny:

Well, let's keep in touch.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. Thanks so much.

Danny:

Yeah.

Govinda Wagner:

And maybe we'll do another one sometime. We'll think of some other stuff to talk about too.

Danny:

Yeah. We'll just make a podcast. Fuck it.

Govinda Wagner:

Yeah. I love that too.

Danny:

All right, I'll see you later, bud.

Govinda Wagner:

See you. Bye.

Danny:

Bye.