Oral History with London Newton, Part 1

Livvy, Interviewer:

... to the Cloud. I'm like ... Oh, okay. It's recording now. Okay. Thank you for sharing your time and the gift of your stories. You can take a break or end the interview at any point. With your permission, all stories will be archived with Special Collections at UNC Asheville and available as audio, video/typed transcript files. You will be contacted to review your typed transcription in advance of publication in case you wish to make changes, corrections, or name restrictions.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I have an oral history release form for you to sign that gives you your oral history and other materials you may have to Special Collections. With restrictions means you wish to restrict some information, parts of your interview, your name, [inaudible 00:00:42] interview until a certain date for example. Without restrictions means that you can publish your name and your story as stated once you've approved the final transcript.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Today's date is February 27th. It is 2021. The year of Megan Thee Stallion. I am 00:01:00Livvy Barnes and I'm talking with London Newton ... Wait. You're supposed to say your name. I'm talking with?

London:

London Newton.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, full name and pronouns they said.

London:

London Newton and I use she/they pronouns.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Who was born on?

London:

January 9th, 2000.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What city?

London:

Columbus, Ohio.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, wow. The more you know. Okay. Let's get started. How would you describe yourself, like gender, race, ability, socioeconomics.

London:

I'm still kind of figuring that out. I would say like queer, lesbian, broke.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay.

London:

Fairly stable ish right now but broke.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. It be like that sometimes.

London:

I'm a comrade. Comrade not by choice. You know?

Livvy, Interviewer:

How long have you lived in western North Carolina? What brought you here?

London:

I've lived here for three years and I came to go to UNC Asheville.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. What things have changed here in positive ways? In the three years you've been here.

London:

Something that I haven't done? I think Asheville's always had more mutual aid than a lot of other cities but it's been popping up a lot more recently because of the pandemic. That's I guess kind of good. We have a reparations bill 00:03:00[inaudible 00:03:05] reparations. Not much. It's honestly just ... I'm trying to think what's gotten better. I don't know honestly.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Right. I'm feeling like on a personal level things have gotten better but I cannot say ... [inaudible 00:03:32] sounds cool.

London:

Grind is fun. Yeah. I think the summer also brought a lot of Black people back to downtown and there hadn't been in a long time but I also still don't see white people downtown as much as I did at the beginning of the summer when George Floyd died and all that stuff. Yeah. I don't know.

London:

I think Asheville is really good at looking like there's improvement when 00:04:00there's not. The way I described it the other day to someone was imagine a wall that's rotting and crumbling but there's a cute poster on top of it so you don't see it as much unless you actually live there.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. You know, that's what ... I felt the same way as someone who used to vacation in Asheville. Like the difference what it looked like as someone who was there for a few days or a few weeks versus actually living there and getting into it. Yeah. I was like, "Whoa. Okay. This is a bit of a mess." I was like even then still an outsider to an extent because we weren't born and raised there but seeing all [inaudible 00:04:51] and then being like, "Well, am I wrong to think this?" Then you talk to people who have been here since the '70s and they're like, "No. Yeah. It's a mess."

London:

That's the other thing. I've only been here for three years and I feel like I 00:05:00wasn't actually super involved in Asheville until the past year and a half maybe. I did a lot of voter mobilization work my sophomore year. That was off-campus. I think this summer was when I actually started being really involved in the community and stuff like that.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. What things have changed here potentially in a negative way?

London:

Well, there's a pandemic and a race war so that's one thing. They're continuing to gentrify neighborhoods so that's not fun but I guess [inaudible 00:05:47] what they've been doing the whole time.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

I have less financial aid than I did when I got here. That's not fun.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I thought they weren't allowed to do that. I thought they said it would be the 00:06:00same ...

London:

I don't know if it was my income or maybe it's because my mom's income went up a smidgen. I lost like $2000 from my Pell grant.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh my gosh. That's so much money.

London:

Yeah. It sucks a lot.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Damn. Wow.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Jeez. Well, what's kept you here?

London:

Good question. I ask myself that every day. Well, this is where the movement work started and I'm not done with college so I'm probably going to stay and hopefully graduate, if I don't lose it, and then probably stay for a few years to do some of my Asheville For Justice work and stuff like that. This city is really soul sucking.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

It's like I love the people that I do work for in mutual aid with here and so that's what keeps me here. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I can give you spiritual reasons why it's soul sucking after this is done because I was talking to and interviewing someone and they told me why and I was like, "Whoa." Third eye stuff, if you will.

London:

Yeah. It's a mess.

Livvy, Interviewer:

What do you hope for Asheville and west North Carolina, in general, as our community moves forward?

London:

I think that ... I had a couple friends who said this, my friends that were upper class men. She would always say the mountains are so healing and this land is so healing and it's genuinely like there's something. You know? When we are destroying the environment, we are destroying that ability to heal here and when 00:08:00we're not treating each other well, we're destroying that ability to heal here.

London:

My hope is that we continue to try and preserve this environment and love each other better and see things like housing and healthcare as a human right and for this to be the example for that. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Describe where you grew up. How long did you live there? What was that place like?

London:

I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. My school, I think there were like five Black kids there, including myself and most of us grew up together our whole lives. That was really not fun. I had racist teachers. I've been written up for things, like 00:09:00probably three or four times in my childhood for being violent when I wasn't being. Just shitty stuff. You know.

London:

My parents got divorced when I was like seven or eight and then we moved to Charlotte when I was 10. That was my first time, in fifth grade, being at a school that had a lot of Black kids and that was really jarring for me. I was used to seeing Black people at home. I had a bunch of Black and brown friends in my neighborhood but I did not grow up going to school with other Black kids and it called into question a lot of my Blackness and made me feel really shitty about that and on top of that and figuring out I'm queer and that was interesting to deal with at the same time.

London:

Then in high school, I was like ... I still am and I'm definitely unlearning it but I'm a Capricorn so what are you going to do? I was very focused on being as 00:10:00successful as I can and leadership and all this stuff. I'm also very spiteful so my mom was like, "London would never join ROTC because you have to wear a uniform" and so I said I will do it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Out of spite?

London:

Huh?

Livvy, Interviewer:

I said did you do it out of spite?

London:

Oh, 100%. If I'm doing it out of spite, I'm going all the way. I was like a captain in it and I competed nationally and all this shit that I would never do now because I'm like a whole abolitionist. That was interesting. Yeah.

London:

Now I'm at UNCA because everyone said, "Oh my God. You're gay. You should apply there" and it was the cheapest school I got into. I hadn't even toured it before I came. I just showed up.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That's the tea. The cheapest school. I was applying to these schools and my college counselor was like, "You need to have a safety net just in case and 00:11:00apply to at least one public college." It was between UNCA, which currently at the time, they weren't having any problems, and Salem, which was having a whole race war at the time so I was like, "Let me go to UNCA so I don't have to deal with the race war on top of school" and come to find out at the end of my UNCA career, couldn't avoid it.

London:

Yeah. The race wars are coming. It's always happening.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah but it was more prominent there because the day I came a racist [inaudible 00:11:37] older woman yelled at a queer student and made them cry so I was like talking to the queer student and we were like trying to make them better and we're in a safe space and they're firing Black faculty who are making people feel safe.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. I met one of the racist women at the hotel I was staying at. It was just a lot [crosstalk 00:11:59]. My mom was like, "You need to go here. You can change 00:12:00things. You can help these people." I was like, [crosstalk 00:12:06]. Enough. It's not my job. I was like, "I'm not about to be Rosa Parks-ing it." You know? While also trying to get used to school. Not to mention, they were like ... Actually that's a story for another time. We're going too far. I'll tell you about that later.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Let's see. What is a favorite memory you have related to your childhood and your LGBTQ journey?

London:

Oh my God. This isn't ... Well, I mean, kind of. I had this friend Alexis. She's white so she got to do whatever she wanted to. One night we were having a sleepover at her house and she invited all these guys over. She was trying to be 00:13:00cool and kiss girls in front of guys I think. I think she also maybe just wanted to kiss girls. We'll see.

London:

We're like playing spin the bottle or something and we kissed and it felt weird because she was my friend but I was like ... It was the same weekend that she told us ... She had a hot tub and she was like, "Guys, I learned that if you put your vagina up against the jets it feels good." It's like six girls in a hot tub at night in her backyard with our legs like over the side of a hot tub just [crosstalk 00:13:51] hit our little coochies. We were just like, "Hehe. This does feel nice." I was like, "Wow. That was kind of an orgy." I was in like the seventh grade.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm weak.

London:

I'm like maybe that's why I'm gay. There's a lot of reasons. Yeah. That was the first one I could think of.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh my goodness.

London:

Yeah. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Wow. Yeah. You think of a moment and you're like, "It's definitely the hot tub orgy that made me realize I was not straight."

London:

Yeah. I was like, "Huh. Something about this is ..." You know, the TikTok audio that's like, "These bitches gay. Good for them. Good for them." This video is really going to age.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's going to be really interesting.

London:

The Harry Styles Watermelon Sugar poster in the background, the TikTok references.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It'll be like, "TikTok?"

London:

TikTok?

Livvy, Interviewer:

I said Megan Thee Stallion earlier. Megan Thee Stallion?

London:

Megan Thee Stallion? Literally. We should just say as much as we can to really age, really date this video.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It'll be like this was in the height of 2021. We did say pandemic. People will definitely know what time period this is. This is the second ... We're about to get to our full year of COVID. It'll be the COVID-versary. COVID's birthday.

London:

I know. The anniversary, I'm not ... Yeah. I kept seeing last summer, last summer because now when everyone says the summer, we all know [inaudible 00:15:41]. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh my gosh. Next question, which LGBTQ organizations and groups have you worked with, benefited from, or consider an asset to the community?

London:

I haven't really done any work with any official organizations. The best thing, 00:16:00for me, has been just this summer all of the Black young organizers who were running or planning a lot of the protests and stuff downtown in Asheville, we all still talk almost every day and they've been just so important to me with my Blackness, with my Black queerness. All these things. They've been a really amazing support group and I would not have been able to make it through the summer without them.

London:

Yeah. I don't know about any official orgs. I haven't actually done a lot of work with any official groups but just being in community with other Black queer people has been really awesome because our UNCA Out, the gay club at our school, it's mostly white people and any time I've gone I just feel like everyone stares at me kind of weird. It's nice to just be in community with Black queer people.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I found the same thing. I feel like my Black community at school has been my 00:17:00roommates, you, our mutual friends, and I don't think I've ever gone to an Out meeting or whatnot because it's just like [crosstalk 00:17:13].

London:

Don't.

Livvy, Interviewer:

... feel welcome. There was more queer energy even at BSA because me and the person running it are both queer Black people.

London:

Yeah. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. I don't know. Next question is have they played ... Oh, we already said that. Do you feel as though the LGBT community encourages/discourages activism and community involvement?

London:

I think yes. I think it's in the same ... Not in the exact same way but in a similar way that Black women are called to mobilize, even when they necessarily don't want to, it's like you don't really have a choice because your rights are on the line. I also think that because queerness ... Even though, people shouldn't have to, but because queerness is something that people can hide for 00:18:00safety, and it's so dangerous being queer depending on where you are, who you are, blah, blah, blah, that sometimes, especially because white gays have ran a lot of this narrative, that sometimes the queer community, not even really the queer community in its entirety but, again, the people who get to speak the most, which is white gays, would rather would hide things and would rather be like, "We just need to survive and get through" than to actually put themselves in danger to do the real work.

London:

I think part of it is because they only have that one thing to worry about. You know? If you only have to ... You shouldn't have to but it's like if you only have to worry about not holding your hands with your boyfriend in public then you can do that for a lifetime but because my blackness is also something that 00:19:00puts me in danger it's like my queerness is something that I obviously can't separate and I think people, queer people of color, are more mobilized to do the dangerous work because we see all of those oppressions that we face as linked because they are. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Sorry. I'm looking for my next question and I was like, "Should I say something here?" It's my first interview in this way. Honestly, yeah. I'm thinking about the past few years and looking at how things are linked. Like race, sexism, homophobia, transphobia and all them being [inaudible 00:19:50] white supremacy and you know that meme, another thing to date this, where it has the people in space and there's one in front of Earth and then there's another person with a 00:20:00gun and someone had posted one and I reposted it where it was like ... It had homophobia, transphobia, sexism, racism, stuff like that and the person was like, "It was white supremacy all along?" The person is like, "It always was." I was like, "Oh my gosh."

London:

Literally.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's so tiring. Whenever I look at things, I was like, "Wait. This makes me think of this, how as a Black person we deal with this." I was like, "I can see this in transphobia" and I can see this in sexism. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. It's being held up by capitalism?"

London:

Yeah. Yeah. I saw this thing and it was like, "The tree was white supremacy?" Then the trunk was capitalism and then homophobia, racism and sexism were the leaves and stems.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like the way that capitalism is directly fueling all this stuff and I'm 00:21:00just like ... It was like when I realized it, my brain exploded.

London:

Yeah. It's very chicken and egg too because it's like the white supremacy holds up capitalism, the capitalism needs white supremacy to capitalize off of people so it's like maybe the whole thing is capitalism and white supremacy is just the way that it's carried out. Either way, I don't like it. I don't like it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, as a person who is a Christian or a believer of Christ, it's also interesting to talk to people and be like, hey, Christianity, [inaudible 00:21:37] western way, [inaudible 00:21:38] lot in capitalism and feeds off of that and then we also need to address why white supremacy is being like Christianity are intertwined so well and why [inaudible 00:21:48] but people don't want to talk about that.

London:

People don't want to talk about that one.

Livvy, Interviewer:

People will actually give you death threats, family members will be cutting people off. It's like you'll have Black family members who are talking about 00:22:00being pro-Black when you bring up something that's like white supremacist. It's like that's too connected to one [inaudible 00:22:07] Christ is. All hell breaks loose.

London:

Yeah. I'm like, friends, you can't be a Black Christian and not talk about how that's a religion that enslaved us.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

This was literally a tool that was used to enslave us. Obviously, that might not have been the original intent of it but it was. People of color are some of the most dedicated followers and it's like, friends, we're going to have to talk about it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like we need to really look at this religion and what was changed in order to keep us enslaved and hurt our people. People are like, "No, because God loves us all." I'm like [inaudible 00:22:52]. Anyways [crosstalk 00:22:56].

London:

Anyways.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Do you feel as though the LGBT ... Oh, wait. I already asked that one. How have 00:23:00you built a family or support network here in west North Carolina?

London:

With the other Black queer organizers. Then I've been doing these Black and brown town halls on campus ... Not on campus. It's on Zoom. Another thing to age it. Yeah. We've been doing that. I think it's been really helpful for folks and people have been meeting up from people that they meet so that's exciting in the town halls. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Did you participate or do you have any memories of any of the movements that came out of the 1950s, '60s, '70s ... We are too young for that.

London:

Yeah. I was born in 2000.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That question isn't really for us. Did being part of the LGBT community bring you in contact with people of different class, race, backgrounds, and how did 00:24:00that impact your circumstances or outlook?

London:

Yeah. I mean, everyone is queer anyway. It can be across class and everything. I think it brings a lot of intersectionality to the discussion. At least, it should. That's the issue, right? That's why UNCA Out being so white is so gross because it's not like white people are more likely to be queer.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's interesting because I see queer people of color running the Affinity groups. I think especially back when I was a sophomore, sophomore and junior year, I was like, it's weird because we don't see any of us in those spaces but when I'm in these Affinity group spaces it feels like a queer space. I don't know what that's about.

London:

No. I mean, it makes sense. It's because it's a group of people that's all-encompassing. When Black queer women are given room, everyone gets room. 00:25:00That's why. Or Black queer femmes. That's why.

Livvy, Interviewer:

And the groups seem to run better, in my opinion. After I saw the downfall of one group ... That's a story for another time.

London:

That's just me. What do I know?

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm seeing something. Would there be anything that you'd want to change? A group that'd be more accepting of queer POC on campus?

London:

It is really ... I mean, I don't know if I would want to say it's a majority. Maybe it's like half and half but it's so weird being a political science major because you learn ... People go into political science for just very different reasons. I went into it to try and figure out how we can reach liberation and, 00:26:00obviously, learned that voting is not it. That took a minute.

London:

Then it's like you find ... I want to go into politics because I care about people but then I'm also learning that electoral politics are bullshit. It's like I'm going into all these things because I care about people and I want to support people. There are people in political science ... One of my fucking professors literally said, "I did political science because I thought it would be something that I wouldn't have to put too much emotional effort into and I could just focus on the facts."

London:

Then he was saying that he learned this summer that that's not the case. I'm like, first of all, you're like 60 years old. Why are you just now learning that?

Livvy, Interviewer:

This summer?

London:

Second of all, what about political science sounds impersonal to you? You know? It's just wild. I'm like, "Wow. We are really here for different reasons." The other day, I made a class announcement about some of the work I've been doing 00:27:00with unhoused folks and asking for some support and telling people where they can donate and let me know if they want to volunteer and stuff. I was sitting in the back of the class and literally no one even acknowledged what I was saying.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Wow.

London:

They just stared forward. I was like, "Yeah. The city of Asheville just threw away a bunch of stuff for a homeless encampment", a bunch of camps that were setup, and no one cared. I was like, "Yeah. This storm is coming. We're trying to get people in motels. We would really appreciate funds" or if you have a car and you want to distribute things, I can give you things to distribute and blah, blah, blah. It was like literally ... There were three people in the class who regularly already give to Asheville For Justice that didn't say anything but they already regularly give but everyone else in the class literally did not acknowledge what I was saying. Just stood forward. Sat and didn't even turn 00:28:00around. It was just ridiculous.

London:

Then my professor was like, "Thank you, London. You always seem to be thinking of others when I just think of myself. Ha ha." I was like ...

Livvy, Interviewer:

[inaudible 00:28:22].

London:

No. Literally.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I don't know. Sometimes these jokes or whatever, it's just like there's a time and place for everything.

London:

When I'm talking about people about to freeze to death outside I don't think now is the time to make jokes about being selfish.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I don't know. As people say, everybody is human. I was like this professor ... Child, I don't know. Stuff like that, I'll be in class just like ...

London:

Yeah. He's also like a Communist.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Now I'm very confused.

London:

He's a white Communist. You know white Communist men. They don't really care 00:29:00about anyone. They just read theory.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:29:04].

London:

That's just the vibe I get. What did you say?

Livvy, Interviewer:

They're like what radicalized you?

London:

Oh, literally, bitch, being alive.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like that's so cute, that's really adorable.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh, man.

London:

The whites. Am I right?

Livvy, Interviewer:

This is funny because I was like ... I don't even know what to say. It's like being away from Asheville and whenever I hear check in with you all, it's like I hear great things going in your life but I also hear nonsense. It's like the people we're supposed to look up to and are supposed to help us are the people who have consistently let us down, last semester and this semester, and I'm talking in the classroom and us dealing with presidential and vice presidential 00:30:00things and it's just made me feel like ... I don't know how to describe the feeling but I'm just like my trust in people much older than me has gone down. It wasn't high very much in the first place but anything else that was there is quashed.

London:

Yeah. I've had to like really create a ... Maybe the word is dissonance. Just like white people ... I already tell the Black and brown folks at our school, literally, have high expectations for the white people in your orbit and then have very, very low expectations for white people outside of your orbit. The fact of the matter is they're going to disappoint you and say fucked up stuff and, for me, it's like to save my emotional energy, I just expect it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

I laugh in their faces. I go, "Ha ha. Okay." And I just walk away. It's so 00:31:00emotionally exhausting being surprised every time white people at UNCA say problematic shit.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It happens too often.

London:

I literally don't have the energy and it's like all these people love to say they're an anti-racist but can't say Black.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. They'll be like African American but yet it's the same people who can say the N-word so easily in a rap song. That's, again, a conversation for another day.

London:

Yeah but it's like literally not. Our queerness is so connected to our race.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I think especially when we are in spaces that are white, queer, it's like our race becomes brighter than in any other space that I've been in ... Yeah. Even when I'm in spaces that are white feminist spaces, yeah, my race becomes a big thing but it's not as big as when I'm in white queer spaces and I don't 00:32:00understand why. Maybe I need to read more theory on that.

London:

It probably has something to do with divide and conquer.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

White queer people are so racist.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah.

London:

They are but ...

Livvy, Interviewer:

They're like, "I don't know why people think that being queer means that you can't also be racist." I was like we got people in our group who are transphobic.

London:

Literally. Literally.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like being under this gay umbrella does not stop you from being an overall trashy person.

London:

[inaudible 00:32:42].

Livvy, Interviewer:

Let's see. Can you think of any other members of the community that we should invite for an interview?

London:

I like don't like this person very much but I think it would be an interesting interview, our city manager Deborah Campbell is gay.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. City manager.

London:

Then I think that someone in city council is also gay. You know Jordan Perry?

Livvy, Interviewer:

That name sounds familiar but I don't think I know them personally.

London:

She's a professor on campus. I really like her. If you want, I can check in with Michelle about maybe wanting to do it. I don't know if she has the space for that. She's like baby gay.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. Did I meet Jordan Perry? Maybe.

London:

Redhead. She runs Student Health Ambassador stuff.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I think so.

London:

She's really cool. After the terrorist threat to our school because of the Black Lives Matter mural, I had to stay at her place.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Wow.

London:

Because I didn't feel safe in my apartment and she let me stay in her home.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. That's so nice.

London:

She's like a good white person [inaudible 00:34:22] but she's a good one.

Livvy, Interviewer:

A solid person. I guess on that note, if you felt in danger, who would you go to?

London:

Ariel is usually my first white person.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Not just white people but like in general.

London:

Camille, my best friend and roommate. We're very protective over each other. I always say, y'all better not hurt me because if these cops hurt me, the fit that she will throw in this city, you're not going to like it. It's not going to be 00:35:00good. She will lose it. You know? I know that if something happened to me, she would be there in a sec. Yeah. Probably Camille.

London:

My mom is my last resort because I don't want to stress her out and she'll freak out.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It be like that.

London:

I know. Right? She's so dramatic. What is it, her child or something out here doing illegal things?

Livvy, Interviewer:

Are there others who you think have positively impacted the west North Carolina LGBT community?

London:

I know the people at Campaign for Southern Equality, if you want me to get you connected with them.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay.

London:

They're white. Their wife might not be ... Actually the person who runs it might not be. I know the person who runs it's wife. I can check if you want. I can get 00:36:00you in contact with them.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Okay. Who are particular individuals who impacted you as you came to identify with the LGBTQ community?

London:

I can't even think of specific people. A lot of it is just random people on TikTok. I've always been uncomfortable with just the label of lesbian and I couldn't really figure out why. I learned from a lot of Black queer people on TikTok that it's just like ... Also, I took this women of color and feminism class and we talked about how ... I can't remember who said this, it's a very famous quote, though, that the femininity of white women completely depends on the subjugation of Black women. White women are able to stay feminine and soft 00:37:00because Black women are doing all the hard work.

Livvy, Interviewer:

That sounds like a bell hooks quote.

London:

Yeah. White women are able to be so pretty because it's based off of them being different from Black women and better. That on top of just seeing a lot of queer Black folks on TikTok, I feel this ... I'm still figuring my life out but I've started to see why I wasn't just comfortable being called a lesbian and why I felt this disconnection with the word woman but connection with the word Black woman.

London:

It's just that for me, and for a lot of Black women, we don't get to be women. You know? Same with the anti-woman speech. It's like, okay, why don't Black women get that same chivalry? It's like because we literally are not considered women. Yeah. That's just been something that's been on my mind a lot, that it's 00:38:00just like literally as a Black woman it's not possible for me to just be a woman because I don't fit within the white standards of woman and that was really freeing for me.

London:

Also, being a Black woman is so important to me and being a Black queer woman is so important to me. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

It's interesting because I know we've talked about this a little bit but I guess I wanted to talk to you more about it. I was looking at womanhood from a white perspective and I was like I can't really identify with that. I think about what has been given to us as what Black womanhood should be and it's like at least the trash part of it I was like, "I really can't identify with that" and when I was looking at stuff, the people I could identify the most with was like when 00:39:00... It was like Alice Walker and writers during the Harlem Renaissance, around that area, were talking about being free and being in their Blackness and being women but not presenting womanhood in a way that was detrimental to being Black, not us being mules and doing all that stuff but their vision of womanhood was a free version of Black womanhood was something that I could identify with.

Livvy, Interviewer:

The version that I keep on seeing as us being labor mules, us always being down for stuff, and genuinely being hard and whatnot, I was like I can't identify with that. Also, can't identify with white womanhood being very fragile and submissive and whatnot. It's like the two opposite ends of what we're supposed to be, I'm like I can't identify with that but this other version that's supposed to be very queer but also like queer Black womanhood, I was like I can 00:40:00identify with that but maybe it doesn't focus around men and our relation to them.

London:

Yes. I love lesbianism. I love ... I really want to read my lesbian theory but I saw this thing talking about how being lesbian is not being a woman who loves women. It's about living a life in absence of men. She was telling bisexual women, she was like literally ... You know, bisexual women are always like, "I wish I was a lesbian" then be a lesbian. Okay, you can still have attraction to men and choose not to put your effort into those relationships. You can fuck men and decide to raise your children with other women. You can have sex with men and choose to live a life revolving around the other women in your life.

London:

I was just like, "Wow. I mean, I literally don't have sex with men but I just 00:41:00never conceptualized lesbianism as not just a sexuality, as a lifestyle choice and as a choice to like be for women. Then on top of that it's like thinking about womanism and all that.

London:

I've loved living ... Camille's Puerto Rican and my girlfriend is also Afro Latina and so it's like I love walking out of my room every day and not having to worry about some girl with straight hair being like, "Oh my God. Your hair is so [inaudible 00:41:38]." It's like all three of us walk out with our hair just everywhere. You know how curly hair is when you sleep with it.

London:

It's been just so cool and since the pandemic started, it was like I had a roommate when everything started named Shawn and so I was with her all the time so I was with another woman all the time and now it's just me, my girlfriend, and my best friend all the time. My pod of people that I do see are all women. I 00:42:00love it. [crosstalk 00:42:09]. I love being surrounded by women. Yeah. I do. It's awesome.

London:

It gives me the energy to help deal with the men that we deal with when we do support unhoused folks because a lot of them are men and men are annoying and weird.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Very interesting individuals.

London:

They're really sweet and it's been really cool but it's like even when they're sweet, it's like ... Being a man is really a mental illness and I mean that. I'm not trying to be funny. It is truly like something that needs to be cured.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I don't know what ... I can't really say. To an extent, because I was like I was not raised a man so I don't know what it's like to be a man but as I read and go in with listening to men who have sense, talk about man stuff, I was like, 00:43:00"Y'all need to have a healing circle."

London:

Yeah. They really need some unpacking.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like this stuff that the patriarchy does to y'all to make you be trash is like hurting you inadvertently and some of y'all are acting like [inaudible 00:43:23]. I was like y'all think it's just hurting women but I was like the way y'all keep your emotions in and are, ultimately, mostly miserable people, that is not [inaudible 00:43:35].

London:

It's like not good for the body.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Men die faster most likely because of that. I was like the patriarchy is killing you but you think you're benefiting from it. I mean, I guess you are to an extent but maybe monetarily and you're not getting beat up for being a woman and all that stuff but ...

London:

Yeah but it's like why would they really unpack it because it wouldn't just be helping themselves. It would usually start with helping other people. Yes, they'll have to unpack the stuff with other men but it's like if they're not 00:44:00treating the women in their life better, they're not going to be able to heal from the internalized patriarchy. I think that probably makes them not want to do it as much.

London:

In the same way that white people need to heal from their shit but like that also means helping Black people and trying to support their healing and some white people are not interested in that.

Livvy, Interviewer:

At all. As soon as people ... I was talking to Deja about this. You have to give up something and I was like people don't want to give up their power. [inaudible 00:44:40]. She said it. I was like that is factual.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like it's a shame.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. Back to being around women being great, I find that most of my spaces are women, nonbinary, femme-led and I think/I know that that has brought me the most 00:45:00peace and I feel like I post about this a lot, I'm unapologetically more in my women friendships and women have done more in my life and nonbinary people have been there for me. I was like no shade to men but a lot of y'all, the way you guys have been socialized, you do not have the emotional capacity and support I need. You guys are great if I want to go out and have fun but women I can have fun with them and have emotional depth. It's just like ...

London:

Yeah. I know being raised by a single mom for me is probably part of that, of wanting to live this femme-centric life, because that's who has been taking care of me my whole life, that's who has always been in leadership in my life. Even before my parents were divorced, it was my mom. I was always just like could you imagine living with a man? No. No. Even when I thought I was bisexual I used to 00:46:00be like, "I don't know if I can marry a man but I'll date them and have sex with them."

Livvy, Interviewer:

I'm pan and I just really don't see that happening. I've been thinking a lot about my sexuality and whatnot. Okay. I'm also asexual so sexual attraction is usually not on the table. Men are really on thin ice. I feel like I'm just aesthetically attracted to them and I have to get to know them to be romantically attracted to them ...

London:

Oh, but it's a whole other thing when they're on top of you. God.

Livvy, Interviewer:

[crosstalk 00:46:40].

London:

Yeah. I love you. Yeah. It was funny because it was like I love Harry Styles so I think I like men but it was like any time I was with a man, the moment anything seemed like it was going to move forward, I was like, "No, no. This 00:47:00can't happen. I'm sorry." I would lie and say I was waiting until marriage.

Livvy, Interviewer:

They're like, "Oh ..." If they're not trash.

London:

Jesus. Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Oh gosh. It makes me ... I think the one time ... What was it? I was hanging out with a cis het dude. It's been a long time. He was interested in me. He reached his arm around me. You know the type of thing? I jumped out of my skin. I was so uncomfortable.

London:

God. I laid on a man's chest this summer, just one of our friends, and I was like I haven't laid on a man's chest since high school. He was like, "How does it feel?" I was like, "I don't like it in the slightest." I really didn't like it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

You're like, "Men's chests be hard."

London:

Yeah. I want some bodies.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like, "Hmm." Yeah. I'm not feeling it. Yeah. Coming from a single mom's 00:48:00perspective and then if you have a dad that wasn't all that great [crosstalk 00:48:17]. It's just like, okay, well, my mom didn't need a man and the man who was there wasn't even all that great so why have you in my space? I've come to a point where I used to, I guess because of patriarchy, internalized, whatever, feel guilty about it. Like why don't I have enough men in my spaces? There was like a short few month period where I was like, "Oh my gosh." I was like, "You know what? Every time I have y'all around, you drain me." It's literally exhausting so I'm not going to feel bad about it.

London:

It's because I think there's a lot of men who just are really emotionally constipated and then because they can't have these real fulfilling relationships with their friends ... I mean, there are obviously men who do but it's not 00:49:00enough. Then the moment they have any type of friendship or relationship with a woman, it's like all their emotional baggage gets put on you because they have literally no one else to talk to about it.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like I can't do this.

London:

Yeah.

Livvy, Interviewer:

I was like there are nonbinary people, women, who are also emotionally constipated but I was like I don't know what is with being a man but then, again, I need to read more [inaudible 00:49:34] theory and not being able to express that. Then the baggage that you put on your women and especially they usually only reveal it to women that they are attracted to and then it's [crosstalk 00:49:47].

London:

Yeah. What is it with them making us their moms? That shit needs to be worked out. Oh, by the way, I have to go in like five minutes.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. Okay.

London:

I know we've been chilling. We can do another time but I have plans.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Yeah. This could be a stop and pause. I could read the other half of the 00:50:00questions but I don't know.

London:

Yeah. Okay. I'm going to be doing something from one to three and then I have stuff from eight until 10. Any time between that I can figure out.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Time, let me ... Hold on.

London:

In between three and seven.

Livvy, Interviewer:

Do you want to ... Yes.