Oral History with Maya Ulin-O'Keefe

Amanda Wray.:

So our date today is November the 19th, 2020. And I'm Amanda Wray and I'm here with, and I'll let you say your full name as you want to be called and maybe pronouns if you feel comfortable with that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Sure. My name is Maya Yulin O'Keeffe and I use she her pronouns.

Amanda Wray.:

Well welcome. Thank you so much for gifting your stories to the LGBT archive. Did a little research about you in advance and I'm very impressed with all of the things that I read. So I'm really excited to hear from me. So let's see. Let's just start with maybe, would you mind to describe yourself. How do you describe maybe some of your identifiers and we'll just start there.

Maya O'Keeffe:

All right.

Amanda Wray.:

Who are you?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Who is Maya? I am a white lesbian, who is the daughter of two lesbians. I was born in Maine, but we moved to North Carolina Asheville when I was a little about a year old. So I have spent my entire childhood in the South. Our identify 00:02:00it's called a second generation queer spawn, second gen because and queer spawn, we as the children of LGBT parents we've reclaimed that word as kids of LGBT parents. And then second gen, second generation means I'm also queer. So I took that and I really like that term, second generation queer spawn. And I am a lover of books and traveling and pecs and activism. LGBT activism, gender equality activism, specifically internationally.

Amanda Wray.:

Wow. Can you tell me when your birthday is?

Maya O'Keeffe:

10/23/94. So I just turned 26.

Amanda Wray.:

You just had a birthday.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I did, I just turned 26, and so I'm officially off my mom's health insurance which is super exciting during COVID.

Amanda Wray.:

Oh yeah. That is a terrible timing.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray.:

I'm sure being on your mom's health insurance probably wasn't easy to begin with either. I think I read a blog post or something about you talking about or trying to get on your mom's health insurance.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray.:

Or maybe it was your...

Maya O'Keeffe:

That was my brother. So one of my moms had me and the other one had given birth to my brother. And my mom that gave birth to me she's a professor. And so I had health insurance through her because I was biologically related to her. But back in the early 2000s my other mom was not allowed on her health insurance policy. So my other mom and my brother were not allowed on my mom's health insurance 00:04:00policy because they weren't legally connected to her. Because my mom's got married in 1986 or 1992. Sorry. They got together in 1986 and they got married in 1992, not legally but they had a ceremony.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so the issue became there in the early 2000s. My mom and brother did not have health insurance. And they were working really hard with the college that my mom works at to get health insurance, but they weren't allowing it because they said you have to be legally married and you have to be legally connected. And so on my birth certificate in the beginning, when I was born, it only listed one of my mom's names. And on my brother's birth certificate it listed my other mom's name. Just one. Right. Does that make sense?

Amanda Wray.:

It makes total sense.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Is a convoluted story. Sorry. So they spent a lot of time going back and forth 00:05:00and ended up... My mom took a sabbatical for a year and we moved to Vermont, which at the time 2003 was doing civil unions for gay couples. So then we got legally adopted. So they got a civil union and then they each legally adopted us. Right. So one of my moms legally adopted me and the other one legally adopted my brother so that we could have both parents on our health insurance policy. Okay. I'm sorry. Both parents on our birth certificate.

Amanda Wray.:

On the birth certificates.

Maya O'Keeffe:

All right. It's complicated. So that worked because then the college could start giving our entire family health insurance. My birth certificate came very 00:06:00quickly because they had to send it off to get it officially changed. My brother's birth certificate because he was born in North Carolina, it took them months to get it back to us. And when it did arrive, it said he has one mother and one father. It said mother and father, obviously they wouldn't change it. And so it's like both of my mom's names are on there but it's specified as mother and father.

Maya O'Keeffe:

The other thing that one of my mom's tried to do was she ended up having to put herself and my brother on Medicaid because they didn't have health insurance. And my brother when he was really little, he was sick a lot, and so going to the doctor was expensive without health insurance. So my mom had to put both of them because they were the ones not having health insurance on Medicaid for, I don't remember how long it was. I was not privy to that conversation, I was about 00:07:00nine. Yeah, but definitely for a couple months just until they could get health insurance.

Amanda Wray.:

Negotiating all that, I think, I hear trans people are trying to negotiate the same process. Right. Get this particular type of form and those kinds of things. Tell me what that year was like in Vermont. Did your moms, were they both able to be on sabbatical or did they have to pick up jobs there or what happened?

Maya O'Keeffe:

One of my moms was on sabbatical. The other one had been working for Manna Food Bank. And so she'd been working for them until my brother was born and then she stopped working for them. So at the time only one of my moms was working so the inquiry-

Amanda Wray.:

You had moved after your brother was born, I guess.

Maya O'Keeffe:

He was born in 1998 and we lived in Vermont. We just moved to Vermont in 2003 and then we came back in 2004. It was just a year. The whole purpose was to get, 00:08:00I didn't notice at the time, but the whole purpose was to get them a civil union and then us adopted. I loved it for the most part. My cousin, I had close cousin who lived in Vermont, so we would hang out all the time and it was really fun. I remember them telling me... So when I was nine my brother was five. Turning five turning nine in 2003.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so they thought that as a nine year old I would be mature enough to at least understand what was going on with the civil union and the adoption. They didn't tell anything to my brother because he was five. And what are you going to tell a five-year-old that the parents who raised him from birth are adopting him, that doesn't feel okay with a five-year-old. But as the grownup nine year old they thought that I could handle it. So I remember them telling me that they 00:09:00were going to get a civil union and then they were going to legally adopt me.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I don't remember the conversation specifically, but I do remember having a very vivid understanding. And then I had a dream about this idea that they would bring me to an orphanage, leave me there and then maybe come back to adopt me. Which as a nine year old in the back of my head I was like, this is not going to happen. I know that this is not going to happen. But also there was that little bit of a fear of, I knew what adoption was. I'd watched the movie, Annie, that was my presumption of what that meant. So for them to tell me that I was getting adopted, that's where my brain went. And I didn't actually tell them that until high school and they were horrified, obviously that I had that idea that they 00:10:00were going to drive me to an orphanage.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. So they... And I'm sure that they tried to explain it very well, but my brain just didn't go there. And the day that they were going to officially sign the papers they asked me if I wanted to come, and I said no because it was that or going and sledding with my cousin. And so as a nine year old... Now I wish I had gone, of course, but as a nine-year-old I decided that I wanted to go sledding with my cousin.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And there was this idea still in the back of my head of do I want to go with you to the orphanage to sign my adoption papers? Not really. I want to go sledding with my cousin. And I guess the woman who was there to help them sign had drawn up these fun child-friendly birth certificates that we were going to be there. And we weren't because we were busy. But yeah, so it was a wonderful year. I 00:11:00hadn't really spent a lot of time with snow and I got to go and learn how to downhill skiing and we went sledding a bunch. So I loved it, it was a great year. Yeah.

Amanda Wray.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So you said you moved here when you were a year old, so you've pretty much been here forever. You went away to school like, I saw that you went to Philadelphia right?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Amanda Wray.:

What's it like to come back to Asheville now, just to get kicked off your parents' health insurance?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Well, the reason I chose Bryn Mawr, was that it was not in the South. My mom describes this as I was a fish that didn't know it was dry because I grew up in 00:12:00a more conservative community, like don't ask, don't tell situation at school. And also I played soccer for a club team, and that was also a similar don't ask, don't tell situation around my moms. And then I got to Bryn Mawr and my eyes were opened because Bryn Mawr if you don't know, is a very liberal women's college. And it was the first time, I remember it was one of the very first times that I told people I had two moms and I got a visible positive reaction. Before that it was browse for a questioning, not fully understanding what I mean or open hostility.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So it was either not understanding or that's a terrible thing to have. And it 00:13:00was wonderful because my friends at Bryn Mawr, a bunch of them were gay because that's Bryn Mawr. And they were so excited to hear that I had two moms because they were gay and they wanted kids potentially in the future. And so I was an example of how gay people could have children. And they said, "Oh, I want to grow up to be just like your moms."

Amanda Wray.:

Okay.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And that was really wonderful to me because I had never heard that growing up. I had not talked about having two moms. I never hit it necessarily, but I definitely didn't proclaim it because it wasn't what people wanted me to talk about in high school. So coming back here, I've realized that I need a queer community around me because I had that at Bryn Mawr, I had that when I was abroad, pretty much. I found that wherever I've gone after leaving North Carolina. And so coming back here and with COVID it's harder to find that 00:14:00community, which is obviously one of the reasons I found you all. So that was one of my ways to try and find that. But it's been hard and I've tried to connect with my friends from Bryn Mawr who are queer and so that's been really helpful, but yeah, it's been difficult.

Amanda Wray.:

Well, maybe I can send some things after interviewed. There used to be a queer spawn group here too. I don't know if you remember that when you were here?

Maya O'Keeffe:

You know, I didn't. I work with Collage which is... I don't know how familiar you are with them, but they're wonderful. I worked with them a couple of years now in Provincetown when they do their annual family week camp for kids. And then also on their care team, which is where people email us and say, "I'm coming out to my family and I don't know how to do this. And my kids are struggling because they don't know how to." So it's like parents who are coming 00:15:00out to their kids or kids who have parents who are coming out who need support systems. So that's been really cool thing to be a part of too, because that's obviously all over the world. I mean, not all of the world, mostly in the U.S. But it's been a really cool thing to be part of, yeah. So I'd love to hear your resources. Yeah.

Amanda Wray.:

Yeah. Well, I'd like to hear about that too.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, sure.

Amanda Wray.:

So you said, it was really nice to get a visible, positive reaction and you're millennial, and so many people have all these assumptions about Asheville is just everything so wide open and friendly and all of that. So could you talk back to that narrative a little, tell us your story about how it was this don't ask, don't tell place. You can maybe tell us where you went to school, if you're willing.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. And I went to Carolina day school, which is on Hendersonville Road. It's a small private school. And the reason I went there was my parents were fortunate to have a lot of assistance monetarily, both with scholarships and my grandparents helping me out. But the other main reason was that they knew that there was a young woman, a couple of years ahead of me at Carolina day that had two moms. And so as my mom puts it, they thought then that the school could handle a two mom family, because they had, had practice with this girl who was a couple of years ahead of me.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, and the other thing is at Carolina day, you stay with the same kids. I mean, except for people coming in and out, but for the most part you're with the same core group of kids for your whole time there. You don't switch in and out 00:17:00with... It's not a big school. Right. So you're usually with your same cohort. Yeah. And that they thought would help because I would only have to tell people about my moms a couple of times. And it wouldn't mean coming out every single year with a brand new group of kid.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So the combination of those two things were... Yes. So, the other thing about Carolina day, it's a wonderful school. I got a great education and I loved the teachers when I was there. And I believe it has changed significantly. But when I was there, I started in '99. I believe that was a Pre-K, so I think it was about '98, '99. I started and then graduated in 2013. The student body came from 00:18:00a very privileged upper middle class white perspective. And I also came from a white perspective but had two moms and they were more conservative than I was, on multiple issues but obviously the main visible one was LGBT rights.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I remember my mom's telling the story of when I was in Pre-K or kindergarten, something like that. I guess there was a girl in my class... Most of the people when I said I have two moms they're five. So they just say, okay, cool. Whatever, they don't care because they don't really understand, and it's fine. There was one girl, I guess, who just kept pushing me and pushing me and saying, "I don't understand, what do you mean? Please explain, I don't understand. And my mom's, I guess, had at one point offered to the teacher to 00:19:00come in and talk to the class about it. I don't think they did and I'm doing that, but yeah, so they... I guess she just kept pushing me. I don't actually remember it, but it's a very strong memory in my mom's brain.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I guess there's another funny story. When my brother who for a while went to the same school with me, one of my mom's usually picked him up and the other one for whatever reason was coming that day. And so this one kid, she comes into the classroom and this one classmate of my brother's comes running up to her and says, "who's parent are you?" But I he was like a little five year old." And she goes, "well, I'm David's mom." And he looks at her for a second. And he goes, "well, I thought David's mom wore glasses." And she goes, "well, that's David's other mom. David has two moms." And the kid looks at her for a second and goes, "well, I wish I had two moms"

Amanda Wray.:

That's a very great story.

Maya O'Keeffe:

It's a great story. Yeah. But for the most part, as five-year-olds when I was initially meeting all these new classmates and they're a five-year-old, they were very accepting. It did become very apparent in middle school and high school that I had very different values than a lot of my classmates. And it became very apparent when my junior year of high school was a wild year, because in the fall I was part of a theater class that put on a one act every year. And we would put on the one act both at the school and then we would take it to a competition that was the North Carolina theater competition. And that year my theater professor had somehow convinced the administration to allow him to do the Laramie project, which you're not aware of yet. Some people aren't, and I'm 00:21:00like, what do you mean you aren't? I don't understand. But that's it.

Amanda Wray.:

Like I did here to Carolina day for awhile.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. I don't know how he convinced them, but he did. So we had to take that full play because it's about an hour and a half I think. We boiled it down to a one act because that was what we were supposed to be doing. And there was eight or nine of us I think. And we had to meet with the school counselor a couple of times because they just wanted us to be able to talk about the issue I guess. It was not very well set up, to be honest with you. They said, you should just go talk to the counselor because this is intense stuff, but we don't really know how to help you otherwise. And I remember sitting there knowing that this play was much more personal to me than the rest of my classmates. It was obviously very intense and visibly intense for them as well, but not as personal.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so I didn't say anything, I just didn't want to deal. I didn't want to talk about it with these people who really wouldn't understand what it was like. The other thing was right around that time. I had been going through some of my mom's old stuff. I was a history major in college and I just love this sort of thing. Oral history is collecting stories from my moms. And I found some of her files where she had been applying to go teach at various universities before she got this job in North Carolina. And one of the places she had applied to was the university of Wyoming in Laramie. so we would've been there when this happened. And in the play, I was playing a professor at the university of Wyoming in Laramie, a gay professor. So I felt I was responding to my mom.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Right. And she talked about this professor in the play, talked about how she was scared to walk down the street. And she was scared to be out and talked about this really personal things, which I was then presenting. So it was obviously a very personal playing for me and I, so in these conversations with the school counselor I didn't really want to say anything. And at the end everybody had been talking and he turns to me, the counselor and says, "Maya do you want to add anything?" And I was like, "no, I really don't." But what I ended up saying was... What did I say? Something like, it's really hard for me because I picture my mom's in this situation.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Because I would, not necessarily this is not necessarily Matthew Shepard, but maybe Matthew Shepard. Right. But also... And I didn't say anything else. And I heard later that one of the gentlemen in the class with me apparently got very 00:24:00mad about that and stormed into the art room later that day and said, "Maya is making this way too personal." And that hurt more than anything because it was like, you don't understand how this is not pers... How do you not understand how this is per... I'm not saying this right. But how do you understand how this is not personal to me? Do you know what I'm trying to say?

Amanda Wray.:

Yes.

Maya O'Keeffe:

How do you understand?

Amanda Wray.:

Well, first you were asked to make it personal by the counselor, right?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, exactly

Amanda Wray.:

You put yourself out there to claim this for and then somebody retaliates against you for being honest.

Maya O'Keeffe:

They didn't ask me to clarify that statement.

Amanda Wray.:

Okay.

Maya O'Keeffe:

They probably were just shocked and didn't know what to say, but I could have said because my mom had been applying to that university... And I don't, I never really talked to her about it. I don't think... I think it wasn't obviously her 00:25:00top choice, but yeah. So I think that hurt that he just didn't understand how it could be personal to me when he knew I had two moms, I had been in class with him since we were five years old. He had come to my birthday for years. Right. At my house with my moms. So that was hard. The other thing was the school said, you can do the Laramie project at this competition, but you cannot do it on the school premises. Yes. So we went to the competition and-

Amanda Wray.:

Was there any kind of backlash around that. Did you all as students respond or?

Maya O'Keeffe:

So what ended up happening was we went to the competition and we ended up winning the competition.

Amanda Wray.:

Of course.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so the school then said, Oh shoot, okay, we'll let's do it on the school premises. So we did two nights on the school premises. And then we also went to 00:26:00the state competition because this was just our first competition was just regional, in Western North Carolina. And then we went to the state competition. Yeah. So, that was an intense fall. The other thing that happened that fall, I believe, yes. I was also on the debate team because I'm a nerd and I decided to do, so this was speech and debate. So there was lots of different options to choose from. And one of the ones that I chose was an oral, it was like a speech you're supposed to give a speech. I'm sorry. I don't remember what it's called, oral presentation. But it's a 10 to 15 minute speech about whatever topic you 00:27:00want to talk about. So I-

Amanda Wray.:

Was it a manifesto or something?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. It was... I'm trying to remember what it was called. If you Google speech and debate in North Carolina or something, they give you a list of different... It's technically on the speech side, because debate is where it's just like, you're pro gay marriage and I'm anti-gay marriage and so we're having a debate. Right. And you don't have to come up with different, but speech is more like acting and oral presentations about whatever. So that's not a very good description. Sorry. But I chose to do a speech on my personal family life because that's where I was at in high school, it was also junior fall. So I was in the middle of the Laramie project. So I was feeling that very up front. This 00:28:00also might've been my sophomore fall. I'm really sorry.

Amanda Wray.:

That's okay.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I can't remember pretty well. One of those two. So I wrote this speech about growing up with two moms in North Carolina and I was still in high school. So I didn't have a ton of all the other information that I have now in college, but it was very personal. And I was also advocating for gay marriage in that speech because at the time only seven States allowed gay marriage. So it was like 2012, '11, '12. So I was very proud of the speech and now we were going to take it to the different debate competitions. And one of the debate competitions we took it to was that a Christian college in North Carolina. And we prayed before the debate tournament I was like, I hope everybody does well. So I should have been 00:29:00more aware of what was about to happen, but I gave this speech about... We had to do it four times.

Maya O'Keeffe:

You do it four times with four different judges. And yeah, I did it. And I remember this one woman. I knew she didn't believe in gay marriage because she was very visibly uncomfortable through the whole speech. But I felt I could do the speech even better because I was really focusing on her and saying, no, this is why gay marriage should be legal. So that was pretty funny too. So that was my fall. And then in the spring of my junior year so 2012.

Amanda Wray.:

Did you win?

Maya O'Keeffe:

What?

Amanda Wray.:

Did you win?

Maya O'Keeffe:

No, I got 7th out of 15 or something. I don't remember. No, I did not win. Also 00:30:00the top six go up to the stage and I got seventh and so I was pretty pissed about not being able to walk up to the stage, but that's okay.

Maya O'Keeffe:

There was a young woman who was also doing the oral presentations and she came up to me after mine during one of the four that I was doing and said, "Hey, I wanted to let you know, that was really brave of you. And I'm trying to convince my brother that gay marriage is okay." And I was like, "awesome, keep going." So, that was cool. But so that was in the fall. And then in the spring, my junior year there was... Do you remember amendment one that was put on the North Carolina ballot? We voted for it. That said gay marriage is between or marriage is between one man and one woman.

Amanda Wray.:

And one woman, I didn't live here then. But I remember that the similar things 00:31:00were happening and I was in Arizona then.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I'm sure similar things were happening in Arizona. Yes. I remember watching them happen in other States in middle school and high school and thinking that's awful that it could never happen here. And then my junior year of high school, it did. And I heard about it and decided I needed to do something about it. So I went to one of my English teacher who I knew was gay, but she did not talk about, she was not out. I just knew she was gay because all rigt, my family knows her neighbors who are also gay who... All the lesbians know each other in Asheville. That's not true, but it's kinda funny though.

Amanda Wray.:

That's not true. I don't where I'm missing them.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Quite possibly, it's like kind of true. So I went to her and said, I want to 00:32:00start this club to organize against amendment one. And she said, awesome. I needed her to be my advisor, teacher advisor. And so I wrote a little something to present to our all school meeting the next day to say, this is what's going on. I'm going to organize the club, please come during lunch let's have a conversation about it. So I did and I was really nervous beforehand. And I remember standing up in front of the entire high school and starting to talk. And I think I got through one, maybe two sentences and I started crying in front of the entire high school. And I think the reason was I just was, it hadn't really hit me what was happening. And it was like my family's rights were getting threatened and I was nervous to tell everybody, because I hadn't talked about it that much growing up. And it was just a lot of emotions.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So I cried in front of the entire high school. And I remember my French teacher 00:33:00who I was very close with she came and tried to help me through it, which was great. And then I sat down and lost it and they like, one of my biology teacher, I think took me out of the room and gave me tissues until I was calm. And so I then came back into the room and people started coming up to me the rest of that day and saying, giving me a hug and just, and so that was really great. And part of me was hoping nobody would come. Part of me was like, that was it, I'm done. That was all I needed to do.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so I remember the class before lunch, I had French class and as I was exiting the French classroom, the head of the high school came up to me and said, "can we talk for a second?" And he said, "Maya, you can't do your club because it's too political." And I said, "what do you mean it's too political? 00:34:00This is my family, you're making us political."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I guess I was supposed to have gotten the club cleared by him before making the announcement. But I did not know that. And I'm very glad that I didn't know that because I made the announcement anyways. And if I had known that I couldn't do it, I probably wouldn't have done it, but I'm very glad that I didn't know. So I had to then go into this room of people knowing that we couldn't really do the club, but get them excited about maybe doing something. And so it was a lot to be thrown at me right before entering this classroom, an unknown number of people. Right. I still didn't know how many people were actually going to show up. So I'd get to the room and people...So I get to the room and people are bringing chairs into the room. I see people walking in with chairs and I walk into the room and it's a standing room only crowd of people, which was 00:35:00wonderful. And then of course, I just tried to talk to them about what the issue was and get them excited about what we could do, while also knowing that I had to jump through a bunch more hoops. We had to go talk to the head of the whole school, because he wanted us to change what we were going to do, because he didn't like the idea that we were going to be too political.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, what ended up happening was, we met with the head of the school and he made us change our name, because I wanted our name to be Anti Amendment One. But he made our name be... what was it called, I don't remember, but it was something like to educate. The message that he wanted us to do is, educate the school about political issues in an unbiased way and have conversations about them. And I was like... I sort of gave into him and said, "sure, we'll do that," but then 00:36:00on the side was like, "we're not going to really do that, we're going to focus on amendment one, obviously." Oh, Legal Awareness Club, that's what it was called.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Legal Awareness Club, to educate the community about what was going on in the legal world. But I didn't want to do that. So, we ended up organizing people to go to a phone booth, phone Dillon Bank to call people to say, "please don't vote for this amendment." And I got some... I had never gotten openly hostile conversations with people before, and I definitely did get some of those on those phone calls. Just people saying, "I'm not going to vote for an amendment that lets the F-word bags get married." And I was like, "never heard that language before," and it was intense for a 16, 17 year old.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, we ended up organizing a couple events and trying to get people to put up 00:37:00signs in their neighborhoods. And we had a couple conversations with faculty and teachers and students. The thing that was hardest for me was that, it boiled down to a small group of students, it was not the entire group of people that was in the room the first day. But I had a group of friends that I, especially this one friend, who I had been close with since middle school... well actually since fourth grade, this one friend, and another friend I who had been friends with since I was two and we had just grown up as this group, and I had known them since I was really little. And they slowly over the course of junior and senior year, stopped telling me where they were eating lunch, stopped inviting me to after-school activities.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And it never was a definite, "oh, you started talking about your mom, so we're going to stop talking to you." And it's happened over the course of that year 00:38:00and a half, but I definitely became more vocal about social issues. And I haven't really talked to any of them since high school because they have just stopped. They cut me out of their life, after I started talking about my moms. And I think one of the hardest things with that is, when I started... when I was thinking about going to college, I wanted to have a base of friends that I could call and say, "Oh my gosh, this is my first week, and I don't know anybody and I'm not friends with anybody, and how are you doing?" And I didn't have that, because none of my friends talked to me anymore.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that was really intense and really hard, because I lost friends over the fact that I spoke out about my moms, just saying that we were getting discriminated against. And they all knew I had two moms, I had not hid the fact that I had two moms, they had been over my house multiple times, but it also very clear that their parents were not really accepting. And I didn't really 00:39:00notice that their parents weren't accepting, but I know my moms noticed obviously, and didn't tell me. There were lots of things that my moms tried to shield me from, including the fact that there was parents on my soccer team, and parents in my school who wouldn't talk to them or wouldn't stand next to them at the soccer game. And I was on a... I'm very ramble-y right now, so please feel free to direct my... But I was on a soccer team through the club HFC-

Maya O'Keeffe:

I was on the club team through Highland football club, and they had two teams, the red team and the white team. And technically the red team was better. And I started on the white team, and then over the course of the couple years, I 00:40:00became the best one on the white team, and I never got moved up to the red team. And I don't really know why, but there is in the back of my head... and my moms and I have talked about this, they might just not have wanted me on their premiere team, whatever that-

Amanda Wray.:

There was something I was going to ask, because you said real early in us talking, "people didn't want me to talk about my moms." And so, I was going to ask you, how do you... how did people signal that to you, when you're a young person? Or maybe, what things did your... has your moms told you now, you didn't notice this, but what kind of discrimination... I don't know, just even discomfort did you experience?

Maya O'Keeffe:

I remember, when I would tell people I had two moms, I would watch their eyes. And if their eyes got bigger, or would dart around like a trapped animal, I 00:41:00don't know how to... I don't know what to say next. I think if it was pretty clear, when I would tell them I have two moms and they would look away or they would change the subject, or they would just look confused. And I learned quickly, when I should just drop it.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And the other thing I learned was just to say my parents. I just changed my language so that I could say my parents, and I could talk about my parents. And I would also just say, my mom and I wouldn't specify. I'd say my mom's coming to pick me up from soccer practice, and I would never specify which one. And so, that was sort of coded way of me still being able to talk about them, but not outing myself as much. The other thing that when I went to Bryn Mawr, it was exciting because I would say, "my mom dah, dah, dah," and my friends would say, "which one?" Because they would want to know, and in high school, nobody asked 00:42:00me that question, they didn't care.

Amanda Wray.:

Do you think some of the Southern politeness plays in here?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yes.

Amanda Wray.:

You've said, "don't ask, don't tell," so many times. And I just... Could you talk just a little bit more about those feelings. Did that feel confining as a young person, and-

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, it did. I think there was part of me that didn't realize it was so confining, until I got out of it. Like I was saying, I was a fish that didn't know it was dry. I didn't realize how confining it was until, I left the South. There was a big part of this Southern politeness, Southern hospitality that, of course I was often invited to play dates and birthday parties, but it was very clear that they did that, but it was still not really, you still don't really 00:43:00talk about... Like, "yes, we'll be polite and we'll invite the whole class to our daughter's birthday party, but this friend who has two moms, she can come, I guess." But it was... There was definitely a Southern hospitality, Southern politeness, that is mostly about hiding difference. Right-

Amanda Wray.:

When you get to college then, and you have all this openness, was there any feelings of, "well, I hadn't wanted to code my language, or reject time mothers in any way." But did you have any feelings about that on the other side like, "Oh, I did maybe code by language or-"

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. That is when I realized more how the small things that we would do, right... So, my last name is hyphenated because it's both of my moms' last names. And the reason they did that was because when I was born, obviously I 00:44:00wasn't legally connected to one of my moms, and so it would just make it easier and harder for people to question it. My mom would just walk in and say her name and then say her daughter's name, and it was an obvious connection with our last names. And if I had had a different last name, it would have been... maybe people would have questioned it a little more, but because I had a hyphenated last name, and both of my moms could say their full names and my full name and it wasn't questioned as much.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that was something that I didn't realize until later when my moms told me. The other thing I didn't realize until my mom's told me was, I have never, maybe I have a couple of times now, but when I was growing up I never saw my moms walk around the street anywhere, holding hands, never. I never saw it. And when we would go to a restaurant, they would oftentimes sit across from each other, sort 00:45:00of position themselves to look like it was two different families, right? A mom and a mom, and then their individual kids. And then the other thing that I didn't realize was weird until I got to college, was that oftentimes very frequently when I was growing up, the waiter would come at the end of the meal and say, "do you want one check or two?" And I thought that, that was just something that they did with everybody.

Maya O'Keeffe:

But when I got to college, my friends were like, "no, Maya, they don't do that with a mom and a dad family, they're questioning your family. And whether they... because they aren't sure if it's two separate mom families or a two-mom family" And I think they should just always do that, it's not a bad thing to do it, it's just a bad thing to only do it with two-mom families. And I had no 00:46:00idea, that was another... you just grow up in that environment and you don't realize that that's an issue until somebody tells you. So, those were some things that I realized later, that my moms shielded me from to some extent. I don't remember your question, I'm so sorry.

Amanda Wray.:

You did just fine. Let's shift gears little, maybe if you feel comfortable, would you be willing to talk about your own coming out journey? How'd you get there?

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, growing up, I didn't really think about my sexuality because I was a kid, but I watched on TV and in the news and also people in my life say, "well, two women can't have kids because they would turn them gay." Right? Gay parents make 00:47:00gay kids. That's what I heard. Right? No, it makes total sense, of course right? That's because, then I would think, "okay, well then how do gay people become a thing, because if gay parents make gay kids-"

Amanda Wray.:

Like with two heterosexual parents, there's a gay somewhere in there, for the rest of us?

Maya O'Keeffe:

That's probably what it is, but I heard that. And I also heard more negative things like, gay parents shouldn't have children because they will sexually assault them or they will turn them gay or they will make them be terrible humans, they'll come out with drug issues or... there's so many things that I heard growing up as a kid. And so, I always would tell people... first of all, I got asked if I was gay at a way too young age, I was probably like eight years old when I first got asked. And it would always come after I said I have two moms.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And that was the other thing, that I learned to just not want to talk about them, because I would say, "Oh, I have two moms." And the next question they would say is, "Oh, does that mean you're gay?" And this happened starting when I was about eight, I want to say, and then it has continued for my whole life. We're talking last year, I got that question from somebody who lives in South, grew up in the South or I guess she didn't grow up, whatever, she spent a bunch of time in the South.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, I as a kid would take that assumption that people would jump to and say, "Oh no, it's okay, I'm not gay, it's okay." I'm proving you wrong, by saying I'm straight. Right? I'm proving you wrong about gay parents turning their kids gay, and I'm also proving you wrong about all those other terrible things, because I'm straight. I'm an example of the community, of how gay parents can have 00:49:00straight children. So, I was straight through high school, partially because I just wasn't really thinking about it, and also partially because I was pushing back against that narrative.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, then I got to Bryn Mawr and I started to realize that I maybe wasn't straight, but it took me four years to come out, because I had so internalized that narrative of, I have to be straight. Otherwise, I will ruin the LGBT movement for the entire community because they could point to me and say, "this is why gay parents should not have children because they will turn them gay, this is a prime example." So, I put a lot of weight on my shoulders as an 18 year old through 22 year olds. And it took me years of therapy and talking to 00:50:00some of my best friends in college, who were all gay and who were very accepting that I went to the first Rainbow Alliance meeting as the daughter of two women, not as a queer woman. And they accepted that, and let me work through that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And there were multiple times when I would practice with friends of mine saying, "I am gay." And it would... the first time I said it I cried, because I rejected it so much, because of this. And everybody says, "Oh, it must've been so easy because you had two moms and you knew they'd be accepting." And of course they're accepting. They're not the issue, it's the rest of the world and my own personal internalized homophobia, that I'm, to be honest, still working on, because it was just so ingrained through my whole childhood of, "you can't be gay, you're not allowed."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And it was all about me. I knew people who had two moms and were also gay and I 00:51:00was fully accepting, and loved that. But I, on the other hand could not. And it was just an internalized homophobia. So, I did, I ended up coming out in my senior year of college. And I remember telling my moms and I cried because I was telling them how hard it was for me, because there was a big part of me still at that time, that didn't want to be gay. Because the other thing was, there's another partially internalized homophobia and not wanting to prove people. Right? But the other thing is, I watched my moms have to go through so much and I didn't want my kids to go through that, what I went through, and I didn't want to go through what my moms went through.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so, there was this rejection of, "I don't want that." And also, I didn't understand that... I did to some extent, recognize that we live in 2020 now. And so, I wouldn't have to go through a lot of what my moms went through. The other 00:52:00thing I just thought of, it's a little sidetrack, but before I was born... I'm sort of an old gaybe queerspawn, most of the people who have a LGBT parents are younger than me. There's definitely people who are older, but especially people who were born into a two-mom family. Right? So a lot of people, they are born into a straight, family and then they get divorced. So, I'm one of the older people in my community. I'm so old.

Amanda Wray.:

You're an elder.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I'm an elder, that's right. My mom started story of... They lived in Texas for two years, while my mom was in getting her master's, or PhD. Sorry. And although 00:53:00she didn't finish... So, maybe just cut that part out, it doesn't really matter. They were in Texas, they were living in Texas for a couple of years. And they started a... I don't remember what it was called, but it was like lesbian couples who wanted children group, because they had to figure out the legal side and they had to figure out the social side and they had to figure out the biology side of how is this going to work? And they didn't know anybody. There was nothing online. There was no resources. They didn't have anybody they knew, who had done this. And so, they started this group to try and get support from others and pool their knowledge and resources. And I know-

Amanda Wray.:

Your brother was born, around the time?

Maya O'Keeffe:

No, this was 1988 and I was born in 1994. My brother was born in 1998.

Amanda Wray.:

Gotcha.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, I'm the older child. I'm the oldest, so it makes me the smartest and the... Whatever. No. So, they started this group and a couple of the couples ended up having children, because they had just had these conversations. And it was just a time when there weren't any... there wasn't anybody doing it. It was also, my moms were the first of their friends, I guess this was in Maine, so maybe you don't care about this. But the first of their friends to get married in 1986... sorry, 1992. Because it just, I guess at the time you just get together and you just lived together and there's no legal... So why even have a wedding. And my moms wanted to celebrate their love, and so they had a wedding, and it wasn't legal or anything, but they had a wedding in 92. But yes, I just 00:55:00wanted to throw in the fact that in Texas, they had started this group, that was for lesbians trying to get married or trying to have children.

Amanda Wray.:

Did your moms when they got to Asheville, did they continue with that kind of activism? Did they continue with that group or continue to connect with any of those people?

Maya O'Keeffe:

They're still connected to some of those people. I think what took up all their energy was trying to get health insurance for us. So, they didn't continue that group after they left Texas. But yes, they continued their individual activism, that then led to the college accepting everybody on their health insurance.

Amanda Wray.:

Do you want to talk a little bit about some of the activism you've done and maybe even start by giving us a philosophy of activism. What counts as activism 00:56:00really? And what role does it play in your life?

Maya O'Keeffe:

What counts as activism? Anything counts as activism. I really do believe that, yes, you can change policies and you can have marches and things like that, but sometimes just as important is to have individual conversations. There was... I gave some speeches in college about growing up with two moms in North Carolina, which I thought I could include in this, if you wanted them.

Amanda Wray.:

Absolutely.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Sure. They were written a couple of years ago, so I don't really remember if they're very good or not... but yes, my speeches over the years. I remember after one of the speeches I gave, this woman at Bryn Mawr comes up to me and says, "thank you so much for giving your speech, before your speech today, I 00:57:00didn't realize I could be a parent," because as a queer woman, she hadn't realized that she could have children. And then she walked away and I was like, "no, come back, I want to talk to you more. What are you... where are you going?" And it was also in the middle of... I was trying to set something up. And so I was like, "I have to do this, but don't go away."

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that is a great example of, I had this connection with this woman and I don't even know her name. I've never talked to her since, but that sort of thing is just as important, connecting and giving people who maybe didn't have the resources or the examples growing up. And the other part of that is, talking to people who aren't gay, and I've had multiple conversations with those people, including white, cis-straight males, who do not fully realize their privilege. 00:58:00And I have been excellent at educating them about that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

When I lived in Rwanda a couple years ago, I was working for this organization and there was a guy who is from the Northeast, but he had grown up in a conservative family. These two guys, both went to a Christian college, both is white, cis-straight gentlemen. And I told them I had two moms. And then one of them asked, right after that and said, "Oh, so are you gay too?" And I said "yes, but that's not... let me tell you why that's not a good question." And I educated them and they're some of my best friends now, and they're great about it. And they hadn't really thought about what it meant to be gay before meeting me. So, I think that's just an example of you have to help people in the LGBT 00:59:00community, who maybe don't have... just talk to them and provide them with community resources.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And then also, when you have the energy have conversations with people who are not in the LGBT community and maybe need help. I've had those conversations multiple times and I've had questions that are not appropriate, asked of me. And I've been having these conversations long enough that they are... I can deal with the questions, but I also think it's important for me to have those conversations, because I can deal with them. And I don't want those people to then go ask, like this new gaybe who's just come out of the closet, and then they go and ask these stupid questions. So, I think that's also something where you start with where you are, and as you get more comfortable having the 01:00:00conversations, and also just more comfortable with who you are, you can have these conversations. And I think we should have these conversations, especially as white folks going into white communities and saying, "we need to have these conversations because trans women of color are the ones that are most effected."

Maya O'Keeffe:

I've had people from... not all these people were from the South, but I've had people ask me, "how are you possible? Right? How are you possible? You can't have two moms that's not possible. How do gay people have sex, lesbians and gay men?" They were more confused about lesbians, I think because they understood the gay men thing. But I was like, "I don't want to answer that question." I did though, because I didn't want them asking... First of all, I said Google it, I will explain a little bit, but also Google it, because it's not that hard to 01:01:00understand. I was talking to a friend of mine afterwards and I said, "if they don't understand how lesbians have sex, then whoever their partner is just... she's not going to enjoy yourself because there's so many things... Anyways. I just thought it was so funny. So, I've had those types of questions-

Amanda Wray.:

Well, and with heterosexual love making, right, there's a lot that's-

Maya O'Keeffe:

There's a lot of overlap, I feel like. And so, if you understand how lesbians have sex, you do not understand how women have sex, cis women have sex. So, my activism has spanned a whole life, starting in high school. And I do think I obviously started on the policy side, with this amendment that ended up passing, unfortunately, but it passed by the smallest margin, that an amendment like that 01:02:00has ever passed in the South, if that makes sense. It was 60, 40%, so that was exciting I guess. I do remember one more thing and then I will continue talking about activism, I promise. I remember, because it was May, it was when the vote happened, because it was during the primary and I got to vote because I was going to be 18 by the time the general election happened in 2012.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I remember I was sitting at the TV, watching all the results come in and specifically, obviously watching this amendment. And when it was called that it had passed, I was very upset, and my moms were like, "yeah, we knew it was going to pass." And to me, that was awful because I was like, "how could you know it was going to pass? This as an awful amendment. Why did you think it was going to pass?" And I remember running up to my room and crying and writing in my journal 01:03:00saying, "this is terrible and they don't understand me. My moms don't understand me, and this is really hard." And it was hard. I had poured a lot into it and I had put a lot of myself out in public, in ways that I have not before, and we lost-

Amanda Wray.:

So, similar to a bad breakup, but publicly happening?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. And so then, the next day at our school meeting, I had to make an announcement and say, "we're having a meeting today, but the amendment passed, so we're going to talk about that." And I knew there were people in the audience who probably were happy that it passed. But anyways, sorry-

Amanda Wray.:

So, the organization that you worked with, I looked this up, so correct me if I'm wrong, Friends Committee on National Legislation, is that it?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Amanda Wray.:

Could you tell us, how'd you get involved with them and what kinds of things you did?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Sure. So, they have a fellowship program that is most of the time for a recent 01:04:00college grad, that lasts a year, that you get paired with a lobbyist. So, Friends Committee on National Legislation is a lobbying organization that lobbies for international and domestic human rights issues. So, you apply... and it's actually a fairly prestigious fellowship, if I may. And so, it's fairly competitive, excuse me. And so, you get paired with a lobbyist and then you can lobby on Capitol Hill for a year, and you get to learn about all the different... you get to learn how to lobby and you get to learn how to organize for bills and organize against bills, and things like that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, I got paired with the peacebuilding team. There were actually two lobbyists 01:05:00on the team, which was really fun. And we lobbied for international peace building, which means that we were trying to put structures in the U.S. Government, to monitor and prevent violence before it happens in other countries and provide more funding, to both prevent violence and then also work in countries where there was continuous violence. So, the idea is that it actually costs less money to prevent violence before it happens, than to deal with it after it starts, money wise, also life wise. But in terms of talking to Congress, we were talking about money, unfortunately.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that was a wonderful experience because we were lobbying on this bill called the Elie Wiesel Genocide and Atrocities Prevention Act, which the point of it was to increase... Let's see if I can remember this spiel that I had to give 01:06:00every time we went on the Hill. So, it was to put structures in the U.S. Government so that they had to report and continually stay updated on key countries that had the possibility of flaring up into violence, and there's three tiers of those countries.

Maya O'Keeffe:

One of which is, it's about to blow and the other ones are monitoring, red, yellow, green, I guess. So, the idea is we wanted the State Department and USAID to be more coordinated in those efforts. And then we also were trying to get a little money put into this account called the Complex Crises Fund, which is a rapid response fund that would be able to be quickly deployed to countries that were in dire need and who had violence flare up. Because a lot of time in the U.S. Government with all the bureaucracies, it takes a long time to get money 01:07:00cleared, to get sent to where it needs to go.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so, this fund, which was already in place, but we were trying to increase the amount and also make it more permanent. This fund would allow for rapid response money at a time when the rest of the bureaucracy wouldn't allow that. So, it's very complicated. And I don't know if I explained it very well, but it was wonderful because I was learning so much every day. It was my first real 40-hour week job. I had jobs in college, but... which I can talk about, because one of them was gay. Sorry, I need to... Sorry.

Amanda Wray.:

It's okay. Please don't apologize.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I gotta work on that. Women need to work on that, as a whole, we need to work on not apologizing. So, I will try not to apologize.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, I learned a lot, I got to go and lobby. I was writing blog posts and letters to the editor and we were the head of this group called the Prevention and Protection Working Group, that was like 70 different NGOs and international NGOs that got together once a month, to talk about peacebuilding and violence prevention issues. And so, we FCNL was the head of it, FCNL, Friends Committee on National Legislation. We were the head of it, and so we would organize it every month and I would send out all the emails, draft the outline for the meeting and things like that. And so, I learned so much and I also, through... because I was working there. ... also though, because I was working there Quakers it's a Quaker organization, and I knew that ... it's very liberal as a whole. It has some problems in terms of trying to be able to speak for all 01:09:00Quakers to go, when you go on Capitol Hill, you say we are a Quaker organization and we can speak for all Quakers, pretty much. In their bylaws or ... I can't remember what it's called, but they have a list of topics that they cover, right? And that Quakers together have come together and said, these are the topics we want you to focus on, right? Environmental issues, criminal justice, peace building, middle east policy, things like that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

One of the things that it says, we don't want to discriminate based on race, sex, gender, et cetera. It does not include sexual orientation and gender identity because there is a section of Quakerism that is anti-gay marriage an anti-abortion.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, I was working hard there to change that. I didn't end up changing the policy 01:10:00committee's stance on that. But what we did end up doing was creating a section of the orientation for all new staff, which as we call the young fellows or program assistants, as young fellows, we had to go through, we added a section that specifically talked about inclusivity and said, "We recognize that Quakers are divided on this issue, but in this office, if you are LGBT, you are a hundred percent accepted." Because we wanted to make sure that people knew that. And the office was very accepting, that was not an issue whatsoever.

Maya O'Keeffe:

But what was the issue is I came in not knowing if it was accepting until I met one of my co-workers who was very flamboyant, and I clearly recognized that that wasn't gonna be an issue. But if I had known as part of the orientation, that it wasn't an issue, it would have helped a lot.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So we did that and we also got the bathrooms changed because there was like room bathroom. It was just like a single room on each floor. And it was labeled male and female. And nobody cared. Everybody used it because you're on one point, you're not going to walk down to the next floor. And I think there was male on the second floor and female on the first floor, but everybody used it.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so my friend and I, who was also a young fellow at the time, we convened an LGBT working group to both do the orientation, fix the orientation. And also we got the bathroom signs changed to gender neutral. Yes.

Amanda Wray.:

Where were you when HB2 happened? Were you in college then?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yes.

Amanda Wray.:

Like 2016, 2015, somewhere around in there?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. I was in college. I didn't do as much for that because I wasn't in North 01:12:00Carolina, obviously I posted about it and stuff, which is not the same thing, but yeah, no, I didn't do as much with that unfortunately.

Amanda Wray.:

Let's see. You mentioned a little bit talking about going away to college, being in Philadelphia kind of gave you this other space. Could we talk a little bit about race and ethnicity? So Carolina day, super duper way, very upper echelon in terms of general financial privilege and things like that. I'm assuming Bryn Mawr, like most colleges was also, probably. So, can you just talk a little bit about your own, like coming to understand your whiteness in the Southern context as a second gen queerspawn? How's that] been like?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yes, Carolina day was very white and we didn't talk about race at all either, that was the other issue. Both of them obviously are issues. Bryn Mawr was where I really became more aware of my own whiteness. I majored in history and sociology so, you have to talk about race in those natures.

Amanda Wray.:

Yes.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I remember my first semester I sort of was picking classes randomly because I didn't really know what I wanted to major in. And they all looked fascinating. So I took a critical feminist studies in the English department. And that blew my mind because we read all of these amazing feminist authors and obviously a lot of them were women of color and queer women. And I was sitting in a room with all women, well, mostly women and non-binary folks, no men in the room. And 01:14:00we were having these amazing conversations and it blew my mind and it did, it slowly ... and it obviously takes a while because you have to just keep having the conversations.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I also took my freshmen seminar, I took a class called transgenderism around the world. It's like changing cultures, changing genders, transgender as and around the world. And my moms were like, "Yes, these are all the classes that she's taking as a freshmen in college. She's just diving right in."

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that again was helpful also in terms of talking about race and also talking about being cisgender because that also is a word that I hadn't really thought about, come across at all.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. I have I gained so much vocabulary and understanding and knowledge at Bryn 01:15:00Mawr. It just was mind blowing and opening. I would say that it was sometimes help ... sometimes it was told in a helpful way and I could learn from it. And then there were other times when I felt like I was wrong and could never be right as a white person. So I think there's room to grow in that area which, as a woman, I understand the anger and the, I don't want to talk about this.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so I think that that's very valid and it's my job as a white person to then go figure out what I said that was wrong or what I need to know more of. But I also strive as a queer woman to just talk through it and say, "Let me just talk you through what you said because that wasn't quite right, but let's talk through it and sort of try and be more open."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I think that I've learned a lot of vocabulary around being white. The other 01:16:00way that I learned very visibly about being white was when I was abroad. I did a study abroad program my junior year of college, where I did it through the School for International Training. They have an international honors program where I was studying public health.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And we started in the US, we started in DC and then we went to India, South Africa and Brazil.

Amanda Wray.:

Wow.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yes, it was phenomenal and has changed the trajectory of what I want to do in my life.

Amanda Wray.:

How long was your trip?

Maya O'Keeffe:

It was a semester so, we spent about a month in each country. Yeah. And I think India was the first country we went to and we were walking out of the airport with the intense heat, and in India people stare a lot. And so as a woman walking down the street alone with all these men staring at you, it was an 01:17:00intense situation. But that also, going to India and then obviously South Africa with the history of the apartheid and then Brazil, it was much whiter for the most part.

Maya O'Keeffe:

We were in South Palo and we stayed with mostly white families, upper class, upper middle class white families. But I was studying maternal and child health specifically, which was another intense experience. I have multiple stories about. We would go and interview doctors and women and midwives and talk to them about percentage of women who give birth in the hospital versus in their homes, and C-section versus vaginal birth, right?

Maya O'Keeffe:

So that was also very eye-opening in terms of privilege, just coming from the US, and as a white person. And there were definitely times, specifically in India, where we were very aware that this was not okay to be happening. We went 01:18:00to a slum in India and ... that's what they call it. I want to specify that that's what they call it. I know that that's not a word that we use, but that is what they call it in India.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And we met with an organization that works with sex workers in the slum, which was very cool. But then they promptly walked us through the slum like we were a tour group ...

Amanda Wray.:

Oh no.

Maya O'Keeffe:

... which for us was like ... and then we a conversation as a group afterwards and said, "That was ..." But it was also hard for us to say, "Oh, no, we don't want to do this," because we didn't really know what was happening, and we were their guests and they were leading us through. So, that was very uncomfortable.

Maya O'Keeffe:

The other uncomfortable thing that happened was in the ... so, in my maternal and child health group, we as a group, there was like five or six of us, we went off by ourselves to go talk to this doctor in a rural hospital in India because we spent half the time in Delhi and Cape Town, South Africa and South Palo in 01:19:00Brazil. And the other half of our time in a rural part of those countries, which was very cool because we got dual [crosstalk] yeah, yeah, we got both. So it was like two ish weeks. Depending on the country, we spent more time in the city, but in India we only spent maybe a week in the rural area, but I'm rambling. Sorry.

Amanda Wray.:

This is fascinating.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, it is fascinating, I love talking about it because it's just fascinating. But so, my maternal and child health group, when we are in rural India, the five of us, six of us went to talk to this doctor in this rural hospital. And it was just the six of us in the room and he's talking to us and we're asking questions.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And then this guy comes in and says something in Hindi. And the doctor says, "Oh, come with me and we'll go." And so we thought we were getting a tour of the hospital, but instead he walks us into the maternity ward, which is one room 01:20:00with four beds that were just flat, kind of like when you go into a doctor's office and it's just like a flat table, and half of it is ... there's sort of two pieces of the table, right? The flat table . . .

Amanda Wray.:

. . . folds down or something?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, it folds down, exactly. So there was, I think three or four of them maybe lined up. And so we walk in and we don't know we're walking into this, we walk in and there's one woman who's on one of the tables giving birth. And it's very clear that we were not ... we were invited, but she was not asked.

Amanda Wray.:

Oh no.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. And we sort of were standing there and the guy who was walking with us, he said, "Okay, you can watch this and then we'll continue the tour," or something. 01:21:00And we were sort of ... we're college students, we don't really know what's going on. And most of us were white in the group.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And we were just watching this woman give birth. And I think it was her first child because she didn't know ... The education about giving birth is not anywhere near where it needs to be in India, rural India. She didn't know that she needed to push and it was painful understandably. And so they were trying to tell her that she needed to push, but the way they were telling at her was ... I couldn't understand them obviously, but they were yelling at her and they were slapping her.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And the other thing they would do, which I knew even as a non-medical person was they were pushing on her stomach to try and help her. But I don't think that's what you're supposed to do. That does not ... a healthy thing to do. They were 01:22:00pushing ... like one woman would get on top of the table and just push.

Amanda Wray.:

Oh my gosh.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And the other thing that happened was when we were there, another woman came in who was pregnant and obviously about to give birth as well. And she hops up on the table right next to this woman. And the doctor, who's had his hand inside this one woman, goes over and puts his hand inside the other woman without changing gloves. And then he's like, "Okay, you're not ready."

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, she hops off the table and leaves the room. And then he comes back to the first woman and continues, and he doesn't change his gloves. And so ... there's multiple other things going on as well, but that was just an intense experience for me, that really cemented the privilege that ... I mean ...

Amanda Wray.:

That is just traumatic for this poor woman.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Oh, very traumatic. And she kept looking over at us, didn't know why we were 01:23:00there. And it was awful. And we had to debrief afterwards and I just wanted to not be there, but we were trying to be polite to them, but we didn't know what to do and our ... yeah, it was really not ... we shouldn't have been there. We shouldn't have been there.

Maya O'Keeffe:

That reminded me of something that is not as intense as that story. It has more interest in probably what you want me to talk about. But, when I was born in Maine ... what was I going to say ... so, my moms tried to have me at home, but it wasn't working. So, they ended up going to the hospital and they came with a stack of legal documents to make sure that my non-birth mom was allowed into the room. And fortunately she was, which was great.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I don't obviously know if it was ... I don't think they cared if they had 01:24:00the legal documents, but they had to just come prepared because they didn't know. So, I was born in a rural Maine hospital. My mom had to have a C-section and I had an Apgar score of two, one, two, something like that. My heart was beating and that might've been it.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, they didn't have an infant respirator at the hospital. And so this guy had to hand pump me for two hours until the ambulance from Portland, Maine came, and my mom, the one who did not give birth, she told them that she wanted me to go to Portland, not Bangor, Maine because she knew that the Portland hospital was much better.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so fortunately, because she was there, she was allowed in the room, which was not a given at all, especially in a rural Maine hospital. She sent me to the 01:25:00better hospital and I ended up being in the NICU for two weeks, until I was allowed to come home. They had to do the same thing with my brother when he was born in North Carolina, they came with a legal stack of papers because my other mom was not legally connected to ... They weren't family, right? They weren't legally family. And so they weren't ... the hospital could have refused her entry for both births, right? My moms separately.

Maya O'Keeffe:

They didn't, but it was obviously a fear of theirs. Yeah. So that was just an addition. Yeah, and then the other, I'm trying to think ...

Amanda Wray.:

You said once that you found LGBT community while you were abroad in these various capacities. Can you talk about what that process is like? Is it similar everywhere and it's not just this way ... it's not distinct in any one country, 01:26:00right? Like, it is this process of gay people locating their chosen family. So, can you talk about that? How do you go about doing that?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Well, so after my study abroad program, first of all, fun story; when we were in Brazil, my study abroad program, they placed me with a gay couple as my host family because the study abroad program knew I had two moms and Brazil was very Catholic, and so they wanted to make sure I felt comfortable. So I have two dads in Brazil-

Amanda Wray.:

Nice.

Maya O'Keeffe:

... that I still stay in touch with. I actually visited them on my way back from Rwanda, which was wonderful. So that's also like a fun ... Because I come from the LGBT community, we connected so much better, and have that bond of being 01:27:00both queer and knowing that it's not always easy. But they tell me that they said when I was leaving, they said, "Tell your two moms in the US that you have two moms in Brazil," or "Two dads in Brazil." So, that was fun. So now I have two moms and two dads.

Amanda Wray.:

Did they have kids?

Maya O'Keeffe:

What?

Amanda Wray.:

Did they have kids?

Maya O'Keeffe:

They didn't. They still don't. I am their child.

Amanda Wray.:

That's great.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. So, actually, after my study abroad program, I did the study abroad program fall of my junior year of college, that summer, the summer between my junior and senior year of college, I went back to India for three months to work for this organization that we had met with when we were there, called the Naz India Foundation. And one of the things that they do is, at the time they were 01:28:00trying to decriminalize homosexuality.

Maya O'Keeffe:

It has now been decriminalized, but at the time it had not been. So I went and worked with them. They also had a girls' sports empowerment program where they would go to the slums in new Delhi and teach netball, which is kind of like basketball. It's a very popular sport in Australia, in India and Southeast Asia, I think.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And they would also teach life skills like menstruation and how to ... sanitary practices and HIV AIDS prevention and financial management. So I would do that. And then I also taught English to the kids in their orphanage and all the kids in their orphanage were HIV positive.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So I created an English program for them and tried to supplement that with a outside, running around activity because they just never left their rooms. So 01:29:00point is, I found community there because this organization was working for LGBT equality at the time India was very behind and was just trying to decriminalize homosexuality.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And through that organization, I went to the very first ... well, I found out that the very first pride parade in Gogol, India was happening, which is a small township outside of Delhi. So, it wasn't going to be safe for me to go by myself, but I took a co-worker, a male co-worker with me. And they were giving speeches, and then we marched around this tiny little park with a rainbow flag. And I ended up in the paper the next day in the Deli Times, because of course they saw the white girl and were like, "We have to take a picture of that," but it's me and a bunch of other people and we're holding this big rainbow flag and 01:30:00I got in the Delhi Times.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, that's one way to do it, right? You just go and you work for an organization that is gay. But I also, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms. And at the time I wasn't out until the end, when I told one of my bosses. He ... I think he had asked, he said, "What does your dad do?" And I said, "Actually I have two moms." And he looked at me like he did not ... he gave me one of those looks like, "I don't understand what you're saying."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And then I actually told my roommate who worked for the organization as well. She was from Mumbai and she didn't understand either. And so I found that super interesting that they worked for an organization that was trying to decriminalize homosexuality. But the idea of two women having a child was out of their range of conception at all. They understood what being gay was. But the 01:31:00idea that you could have a child was just not a possibility.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So that was one way to do it. The other way, when I was living in Thailand, I Googled LGBT organizations and found one. And so when I wasn't teaching English, I was helping them with posting on their social media, and I would go to events. Bangkok, where I was living was very gay friendly.

Maya O'Keeffe:

They had a pride parade that I got to go to because for whatever reason, they have ordinances that says you can't have a pride parade on the streets. They had a pride parade on a boat. So it was even

Amanda Wray.:

more fun?

Maya O'Keeffe:

It was ... they opened the dance floor. It was wonderful. Yeah. So that was 01:32:00wonderful. I will say, one of the things that happened on that boat was I got hit on pretty hard. That made me very uncomfortable and I kept telling this gentleman that I was gay and he kept saying, "I am also gay." And I was saying, "Well then ..." So, I think it's also just hard sometimes to ... In Bangkok it's very open and accepting for the most part.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I think parents don't want their kids to be gay, but it's okay if other people's kids are gay. And there's this idea that if you're gay, you did something wrong in your last life because that's a very strong Buddhist country. So they mostly 01:33:00just feel sorry for gay people. But that's a side note. I think it's also hard when gay men dominate. And so the idea is that if you're gay, you have to go to all the parties and that's just what gay culture is, right? But women still don't feel safe in gay spaces sometimes.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Even though I kept saying, "I'm a lesbian, I have no interest in you, please step back," there's still issues in the community with that, especially when people are told like I found in Rwanda, that you have to marry a woman. Gay men have to marry women. There's no option.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So. That was the other thing I did in Rwanda. I went there knowing I had to hide. I went there knowing I had to stay in the closet. So, I scrubbed my 01:34:00Facebook page, I printed out pictures of my extended family, because I knew my host family in Rwanda would want to see pictures of my family because that's just how you connect with people.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so I printed out pictures of my aunts and uncles and cousins so I could show them those pictures and just say, "Here's me and here's my brother, and here's my mom." And then not point out my other mom, right? And I could have pictures of me and one of my moms, but just not specify, you know what I mean?

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I just dodged the, Do you have a boyfriend, question. I would say, "No," which is very true. I had a girlfriend at the time, but obviously I didn't want to tell them that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So to backtrack slightly, I'm talking a lot, I hope this is okay. I also have a meeting at three, I believe. So I would have to go at some point. 3:30. Just so you know. I hope this isn't too long. I don't-

Amanda Wray.:

No . . .

Maya O'Keeffe:

Okay.

Amanda Wray.:

This is ... usually I set aside two hours and so-

Maya O'Keeffe:

Okay cool.

Amanda Wray.:

... you're doing great. There's no right or wrong way to do this, and your stories are really fascinating, so go on.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Okay good, well I'm glad that you're fine.

Amanda Wray.:

It's odd to talk this much about yourself, I'm sure.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, well I keep drinking because I'm like ... this sore throat. So yes, when I went to Rwanda, I knew that I had to hide. I found connections through FCNL. When I was working in DC, I got connections to people working in Rwanda, which is how I ended up there. And I also got ... I won a couple grants to fund my trip because obviously the organizations there weren't going to pay me. But I got grants to pay me instead, which was wonderful. They were two Quaker grants for Quaker youth to go.

Amanda Wray.:

Are you a Quaker? Do you identify as Quaker?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yes, I do, which, let me tell you a short story about that before I go back to 01:36:00Rwanda. So, sorry. I forgot about this whole part. So I am Quaker and one of my moms has been ... her side of the family has been Quaker since the 1600s back in England. We've been Quaker for a while. And so, my other mom was Catholic and her parents were not quite as accepting of my moms, but they came around, which was great. They came to the wedding, which was big. And my grandfather even spoke, which was even bigger. Yes. Although, yeah, so they were all Quaker. And we started going to a Quaker meeting in Asheville and this was in the late nineties.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I think I was five or six at the time when this happened, there was a lesbian couple who came to meeting and said, who was part of the meeting, and they said, "We want to get married under the care of the meeting," is what it's 01:37:00called. So it just means we want to get married in the meeting. And it's called meeting, not church.

Amanda Wray.:

Right, I'm familiar, a little familiar with Quaker.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Cool, yeah. Yes, so they said, "We want to get married under the care of a meeting." And at the time that meeting had not decided whether they wanted to marry gay people yet. So, they had to go through a deliberation process because in Quakerism, everybody, you have to come to consensus. So everybody has to agree, which sometimes takes awhile. And there's a joke in Quakerism that sometimes to get things done, you just have to wait for the older people in the meeting to pass away because then we won't have to worry about consensus because they're not part of consensus anymore. It's a joke in Quakerism.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, this meeting went through the whole process and my moms ... nobody reached out to my family and said, "We recognize that we're going through this process, but we still value you, and we still want you as part of this community." So, I think there was, and I don't remember this, but I think my moms we're feeling like, we don't want our children to watch this space that's supposed to be safe. These people that are supposed to be our community debate whether our family should be legal, right?

Amanda Wray.:

Yes. Yeah.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Especially as a five and a six and two year old, or something like that. I think I was six and my brother was two. So we left and we never went back, and the meeting ended up saying, "Yes, we're going to marry you," to this other couple, but we never went back and we've considered ourselves Quaker, but we just have never gone to a Quaker meeting.

Maya O'Keeffe:

We've gone once in a while when we're ... not to this specific meeting, but visiting a friend of ours in DC, who's Quaker and things like that. So, I had that experience. And so, one of the reasons I chose FCNL was to try and heal the wounds that religion has cut deep into me since I was growing up, because one of the other things was that I was told from a very young age that I was going to hell because I have two moms. Not necessarily directly to me, but I would hear people say, "Oh, if you're gay, you're going to hell."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And so I assumed I was really screwed because I have two moms. And so of course I was going to hell because I'm connected. I just saw myself as part of the LGBT community, which I was. I think there was also this issue with people saying, 01:40:00"Oh well, if you're straight, but have two moms, you can't be considered part of the LGBT community." And I call BS because of everything I've just talked about having to deal with.

Maya O'Keeffe:

But anyways, so I considered myself part of the LGBT community. And I heard when I was little, that I was going to hell, and I just pushed back against religion. And I said, "Well, that's just clearly not for me. I just, clearly I'm just not going to have anything to do with religion." And then going to Bryn Mawr, which is a historically Quaker school, and I took a sociology of religion class, which was sort of helpful, but sort of not.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And, and then I chose FCNL, which is a Quaker organization. And then I probably shouldn't have done this, but I chose a Quaker organization in Rwanda to go work for, partially because I thought that these grants would love that, right? A 01:41:00Quaker youth going to work for a Quaker organization in Rwanda. That sounds perfect, right? And I wanted the money.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So anyways, that was a tangent to get us back to where we were in Rwanda. I got connected to a host family was working for Friends Peace House, this organization in Kigali, which is the capital of Rwanda. My host mom was the culinary teacher in the vocational training school. And my host dad was a pastor that was connected to the church that was on the same grounds as the organization.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So, to prepare, right, I scrubbed my Facebook, I printed out pictures of my extended family and decided that I would just tell them I had one mom when they 01:42:00asked. I didn't want to lie and call one of my moms, my dad, because then I'd have to come up with a picture of him, and that was just going to be overly complicated.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I also thought that because of Rwanda's history with the genocide that happened in '94, that a lot of people grew up with only one parent because one of them was killed in the genocide. And so I thought that it would sort of be an easy thing to just say, "Oh, I don't know my dad."

Amanda Wray.:

Were you in conversations with your moms as you're doing this process?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. I was feeling bad because I was like, "I don't want to lie about you guys." But they were saying, "Whatever you need to do to stay safe is what we would like you to do ..." Whatever you need to do, stay safe, is we would like you to do [inaudible] lasts, yeah. What they were most concerned about was my safety and not having to worry about lying or not lying, so they didn't care. 01:43:00Yes. See, I keep telling these stories and then I think of something else that you would probably like to hear. And so I'm going to tell this other short little tangent, and then we'll get back to Rwanda, I promise. When my moms were trying to conceive me, there was not in rural Maine, and I also don't think in North Carolina at the time in '94, a sperm bank that would allow two lesbians to have a child.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Now, I don't know if this was North Carolina, but I'm sort of assuming it also was North Carolina in '94, and we're in Maine. And so yes, there was no sperm bank that would allow my moms to have a child. So they ended up asking a family member to be my sperm donor. Not biologically related to my mother, I want to 01:44:00specify that because I've had people ask me questions. They're like, "What do you mean?" It's like, "What do you think, moms would do that? No, they're not stupid." So no, it was like, one of my moms gave birth to me and the family member on the other side provided the sperm, because they were not allowed to use a sperm bank. Okay.

Amanda Wray.:

Back to Rwanda.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Back to Rwanda, so yes, I stayed with-

Amanda Wray.:

What was closeted life like there? Let's talk about that.

Maya O'Keeffe:

What was what?

Amanda Wray.:

Closeted life like, there.

Maya O'Keeffe:

It was very hard.

Amanda Wray.:

Were you ever out with anyone while you were there? And well, you said well, you had a girlfriend, you said at that point, right?

Maya O'Keeffe:

She turned out to be not good.

Amanda Wray.:

That happens.

Maya O'Keeffe:

She ghosted me, which is fine. In Rwanda, which I feel like that's just not 01:45:00whatever, I'm totally over it. She's now married. So I have heard, whatever. Yes. It was hard because I had sort of spent the past four or five years being able to talk about my moms and myself, right? In Burma, it was like all we talked about. That was just part of conversations, and in FCNL right? It was very open and I had sort of learned the importance of talking about it and speaking up, and I really enjoyed it. Right? Enjoyed those types of conversations. And so I had to sort of push all of that down and also not feel bad about it, right? That was the way I was going to get to Rwanda. The first night, or maybe it was the second night, but very early on with my host family, we were sort of sitting in their living room and they said, "What do you think 01:46:00of homosexuality?" Out of nowhere.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I said, "Well, in the U.S. it's okay." And I didn't really say much. I just sort of said, "I think it's okay, but I'm going to just leave it at that." And I think they went through my Facebook page prior to my coming and found out that I at least thought it was okay, and I never pushed it. That was the only thing I was going there thinking, okay, I'm not going to push it. I'm not going to bring it up. I'm just going to not talk about it. But I got questioned the second, first day I was there, what I thought about it and I didn't lie. I just said, I think it's okay. And in the U.S. it is, sort of. Depending on where you are. Yes. So yeah, there were multiple situations that I probably shouldn't have put 01:47:00myself in, but I did where I had to defend the LGBT community.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So while I was in Rwanda, India decriminalized homosexuality, and I remember reading about it sitting on the couch in the general area where people worked, and I said something out loud. I said, "Oh, awesome." And then my coworker said, "Oh, what happened?" And I was like, "Oh shit, what do I say?" And I told him, and he sort of was like, "Oh, I don't think that that's okay." Because the other thing is I knew that it probably wasn't okay, but I didn't really know. I was trying to get information beforehand, and some people were saying it was okay to be out, some people were saying, no, no, no. I learned very quickly that this organization was not okay with me being out. The other thing, I was helping teach English at their vocational training school.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I did it by myself for about a month when their English teacher was away. And then when he came back, we talked together for a little bit, and at one point he said, "We should have, as one of the lessons, we should have the students debate each other and have these conversations, because in English class, nobody wants to talk. And so you have to come up with creative ways to get people to talk." And I said, "That sounds like a great idea." And he said, "Why don't you and I have an example debate, to just give them an idea?" And I said, "Sure, that sounds great." So right before we were about to go into class, he said, "Okay, the topic is homosexuality." And I said, "Okay." And here's where I think back and think I should have said no. I should have said no, we should do a different topic. I didn't because I was naive and didn't fully understand how homophobic 01:49:00the organization was.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So we did it, and he pulled every question out of the book you could think of, right? The Bible says it's not okay. Gay people can't have children, so what's the point in getting married? Because in Rwanda, the point of getting married is to have children. How do gay people have sex, all those good things. And I attempted to counter them and I could counter them, because I knew how to counter them. And I remember one time, especially when he said, "Oh, gay people can't have children. So what's the point?" And I countered with, "Yes, they can." And we were doing it in front of all the students, right? We were sort of sitting there facing the students, sort of half facing each other, half facing the students. And when I said, "Yes, they can," the students all laughed, like it was the most absurd thing they'd ever heard.

Amanda Wray.:

How did that feel?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Oh, it was awful. The whole time. Because the other thing is, oftentimes when I have those conversations, I use my own personal experiences to say, no, actually gay people can have children because I have two moms. But I couldn't, right? I couldn't say that. So that made it really hard. And then at the very end, one of the students asked me a question and said, "Do you really believe gay people are okay? Or are you just doing this for the debate?" And I didn't answer because I was able to sort of not answer, because there was another question coming up. But I remember right afterwards, I just left the room. I was like, I need a minute because I can't do this right now. So I left the room and took a minute before coming back to finish the lesson, so I knew early on that I needed an 01:51:00outlet, right? Because it became very clear, very quickly that I could not be out in any capacity.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Because I had sort of put out feelers a little bit saying, what do you think about being gay? And it was all like, no you can't. So I Googled LGBT organizations in Kigali and message two. I also had been connected, so my cousins actually at the time were living in Kigali because yeah, they were living there for about a year. And so we overlapped by a couple of weeks and my cousins were able to connect me to this queer women's WhatsApp group that was mostly ex-pats living in Kigali. And so I asked them about LGBT organizations as well. So all those little connections got me there. So I connected with this one 01:52:00called Amahoro Human Respect. And it was just, I would go there once a week to just help them with grant proposals and report writing and just give myself an outlet to be able to be out for a couple hours every week.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I would always lie to my host family about where I was going, and I also learned that the part of Kigali where this organization is situated is in what's called the gay part of town. It's where all the gay people, all of the Muslims and all of the West Africans lived, which is just a very interesting mishmash of people. All the mosques were over there, right? And you had to cross this green, like you were in Kigali. And then there was a green field almost, that you would 01:53:00cross to go to this part of town. And so when I mentioned to my house mom, that I was going there, she was like, "Why would you go there? Don't go there, no." So I never told them I was going, I would just lie and say, I'm going to go to a coffee shop. It didn't matter. I could just lie. They wouldn't follow me. So that was how I did that. I connected with them.

Amanda Wray.:

Talk about why that's important. I mean this is something that in talking to people here in the States, a lot of rural individuals, everybody feels like they're the only gay person in their high school, or their middle school, or in their church or whatever. So could you just talk a minute about, why you think that's important to you? You said it very well to say I needed to go give myself an out. What does that mean?

Maya O'Keeffe:

That's a good question. I think it sort of validates your identity, it validates 01:54:00your story, it validates the hardship that you're going through. We're social beings and we need to be in community, and we need to be in community with people who love and accept all of us. And if we can't bring all of ourselves to that community, then it's very hard to feel accepted and to feel like you're actually part of that community. So when I would go to this LGBT organization, I could just feel myself being able to let some of the tension go. And I think it's especially tough when you're in the closet.

Maya O'Keeffe:

I think it's obviously tough if you're out and getting bullied, but it's also intense when you are in the closet and you feel like you have to sort of watch your back all the time. And you're wondering, "Oh, does this person suspect, Oh, 01:55:00does this person ..." And in rural parts of the U.S. as well as all over Africa, it's more than just going to get bullied, it's physical violence that you're worried about. And that's why I also love how the LGBT community has come up with the phrase chosen family. Because oftentimes, well, I don't know, oftentimes isn't the right word. But sometimes when LGBT folks aren't accepted by their family they're born into, they find chosen family that can have such incredibly strong ties. And that's what I also found in Rwanda.

Maya O'Keeffe:

The intense ties that I formed with those people over a six, eight month period were some of the most incredible friendships, because we were all hiding, right? 01:56:00We were all hiding. None of them could be out. They worked for an organization that worked for the LGBT community, but they were not gay. People obviously questioned and asked them, but they would just sort of parry the questions. So that community that they formed with each other, and then I got to be a part of, is some of the strongest community that people can form because it's under stress and it's under pressure. And it's unfortunately under just really intense discrimination, right? And I think that when people are able to come together as a community under intense discrimination, it forms stronger bonds than ever because you don't just want to be part of the community. You need to be part of the community because it's your mental health as well as your physical health. 01:57:00So that's what I found when I was there.

Amanda Wray.:

I have one more question, actually. How long were you in Rwanda?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Eight months.

Amanda Wray.:

Eight months. So I'm just being aware of our time. I know it's two o'clock and this is a lot of time for you at this point, but way back early, you said you really hadn't ever noticed that your moms didn't hold hands in public when you were younger. Are they affectionate people like that at home? And do you think things are different for them now as they've gotten older and things have changed?

Maya O'Keeffe:

I think with COVID, we've gotten more affectionate. One of my moms, because she's working at the college, we wear masks in the house when she's home and 01:58:00when we hug each other, and we sit on opposite ends of the dinner table, and they don't sleep in the same bed, and yeah. It's intense right now, but that has sort of led us to, we just give each other more hugs now. We mask up and we give each other more hugs. I wouldn't say that they're overly affectionate. They hug each other, I've seen them kiss a couple of times, but they wouldn't do it in public, and they don't do it as much. I wouldn't say that they're overly affectionate. So maybe that's also part of it is they're just not overly affectionate people. But I do specifically, remember my moms telling me that it was conscious choice not to hold hands.

Amanda Wray.:

Is there anything that you really wanted to talk about, that we haven't talked about yet?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Well, two things. One is that I just thought of, because that's how my brain works. I do remember when I was living in DC and I had a girlfriend, I remember working with her on holding her hand in public because I personally had an intense ... what's the word? I just really didn't feel comfortable doing it with her.

Amanda Wray.:

An aversion?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. I had an intense aversion to it, and I remember always dropping your hand when somebody would come around the corner. Like we were on a walk, right? And I would just drop her hand when somebody was coming towards us, and she was great. She was just like, "You can drop it or hold on, whatever you want, totally up to you." And I remember there was one time I decided to hold on, and I just held 02:00:00her hand so tight as this group of people passed us and nothing happened. The world kept spinning, and we just kept walking. But it reminded me that I just have ... I don't quote, unquote, look gay, right? I could pass. However you want to say it. And I think I've kept this look because I'm scared of the intense looks that I would get, things like that. And I'm not saying that that comes from my moms, but I do think that there is that worry.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah, so I think that's something that I have sort of held onto from my moms of not wanting to hold my partner's hand because we would be visibly gay, right? Which I have the privilege when I'm by myself, I'm not being quote unquote visibly gay. The other thing that, this is just a fun story. Well, part of it's 02:01:00not fun, but this is just a fun story that I like talking about, so I'm going to tell you. So this LGBT organization in Rwanda, the founder who is gay is a famous singer in Rwanda. He's a famous musician or singer at least, which I did not know because he's only famous in Rwanda, but he's very famous. People stop him on the street and talk to him and ask questions, and yes. So he asked me, "Do you want to be in my music video?" And I said, "Of course I do."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I thought, when I said yes, that I would sort of be in the background, right? Just sort of dancing. No, no. The music video is called Anita, which is a 02:02:00woman's name. And I play a Anita, and it's like a love story between the two of us that has its ups and downs. Which again, I think is fascinating because he's singing about a woman when he's very gay and has to marry a woman. And I am also gay and definitely not marrying a man. Although who knows, gender and sexuality, spectrum, all that good stuff.

Amanda Wray.:

Was he married?

Maya O'Keeffe:

No. And also he was 33, four, something like that. And that's old to not be married. He probably should get married soon. Quote unquote should get married. I had another one of my best friends there. He's my age, I guess he's 27 now. His mother especially, is pushing him and saying, "Why aren't you married? Why aren't you married? Why aren't you married?" And he's just trying to hold off until he can find somebody, a woman who is okay with the LGBT community, because he wants that. Which I don't know if he'll find, I don't think he'll find. 02:03:00Because how can you ask a woman if she knowingly would marry a gay man, I just feel like that's asking a lot, but it's also asking a lot of them. It's just hard for both parties, right?

Maya O'Keeffe:

So anyways, I got to be in a music video and I got to star in a music video in Rwanda, and I had to lie about it to my host family because I couldn't tell them I was at all connected to this organization. I asked him, this singer musician guy, I said, "If I'm in this music video, will it connect me to the LGBT community?" Right? Because that was obviously an issue. And he said no. He was lying. I don't know if he was lying or didn't understand what I was asking. It definitely connected me to the LGBT community because he's connected to the LGBT 02:04:00community. And so the minute I appeared with him, they knew I was working for that organization pretty much. So I got interviewed multiple times on printed in newspapers and magazines. It was hilarious.

Amanda Wray.:

This is still while you're in country, in Rwanda?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Yeah. And it was pretty funny. Because one of the articles said, Kayitare, this musician comes out with a brand new music video, and the star of the music video is the cousin of Katy Perry, which I'm not thinking that I'm Katy Perry at all. No, but I think they picked a famous musician who has brown hair and blue eyes or so, I don't know why. They picked her because I might've at one point looked like her. And also Rwanda, they don't do a lot of fact checking, it is not 02:05:00necessarily part of their newspaper, magazine articles, so that was hilarious. And I had so much fun doing the music video. The only issue was that it did connect me to the LGBT community, and because I had been outspoken at Friends Peace House, the other organization that I worked for, what ended up happening through multiple conversations was they fired me and kicked me out of my housing.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So I ended up going and having a conversation with my boss and I owned up to it and I said, "Yes, I've been working with this other organization, but it hasn't taken away from what I've been doing with you. And I've been keeping it quiet." And I didn't tell him I was gay because I wanted him to ask me if he really wanted to know, but he didn't, it didn't matter because he assumed I was gay. 02:06:00And just the connection to the LGBT organization, he told me he was scared that his funders, which was the Quaker church, would pull funding from them because of their connection to me, which then connected them to the LGBT community in Rwanda. So he said, "You have to leave this organization. You have to leave." I was staying with him because I had changed host families halfway through this because my first host family, the one that asked me my opinion on homosexuality, they were not great for multiple reasons.

Maya O'Keeffe:

And he said, "Well, we want you to stay." This was back in December. I went to him and said I need to change. And he said, "Well, come stay with me because we want you to keep working for us." And I knew his kids and really liked his kids, and so I moved in with him. And then in February, that's when I had this conversation with him and he said, "You have to leave this organization and you 02:07:00have to leave my house, and you cannot tell anyone the real reason you're leaving. You just have to tell them you're leaving, and please finish all the projects that you've been working on for us." And I said, "First of all, the projects I've been working on for you. One of them was a sanitary pad project that was trying to get free sanitary pads to the women in the vocational training school, which is a big project. And I was working on it, but was not anywhere near done."

Maya O'Keeffe:

And I did help them with their five-year strategic plan, so I did finish that before I left, as it was called close to being done. So he then said, "I'm going to throw you a goodbye party."

Amanda Wray.:

Where were you living?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Well, that's the issue, right? He said, "You can stay with us until you find a place to stay," but I would have to lie to everybody. And I was not emotionally, 02:08:00mentally okay at that point because I was getting fired for not even being gay, being associated with gay people, right? So I was staying with him and then I went and stayed at the office of this LGBT organization because they had a little room that had a bed, and that was pretty much it. So I stayed there for a few days, until I found through a friend actually that I met in DC, she was visiting her boyfriend in Rwanda. I met this woman who was from England, who was an ex-pat in Rwanda who said, "Yes, please stay with me. No questions asked."

Maya O'Keeffe:

So I stayed at this LGBT organization for a few days before I moved in with this other woman who had a little house behind her house. So I had my own kitchen and ..."

Amanda Wray.:

So it was better?

Maya O'Keeffe:

Oh, so much better. Also in Rwanda, you don't always have hot showers, so I was taking cold bucket showers most days. And she had running water that was coming out of a faucet, so it was very exciting. I had not taken a shower like that in months. It was cold, but that's fine. It was just actually coming down on my head so I could wash my hair properly.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So yeah, I had to lie to all my coworkers and my host siblings. And during the goodbye party, he said, "Maya's plans have changed, and we're so sad that she's leaving and we wish she would stay, but she can't." They blamed it on me, and I had to just sit there and let him tell them a lie, these people that I'd worked with for eight months, six months, whatever. Six months. And I had been 02:10:00previously telling them, "Yes, I'm going to stay for another couple months, I'm really excited, I'm trying to get grant money." And I was trying to get grant money until all this happened. And so it was just a very sudden thing and they weren't stupid and probably connected the dots, because then the music video came out. The music video came out after I left Rwanda, which is a good thing probably, but I can send you the link to that music video.

Amanda Wray.:

That'd be super. I was just going to ask. It is definitely on my list.

Maya O'Keeffe:

Absolutely. I can send you the link, or I'll just tell you what to type in to ... I'll send you the link. I'll email it to you. Yeah. So that was the most intense homophobia that I had ever, discrimination I've ever experienced because I was fired and lost my housing for being gay.

Amanda Wray.:

Or being associated with-

Maya O'Keeffe:

Being even associated, yeah. I didn't even have to come out. I just had to be associated. But that also demonstrated to me the strength of the LGBT community, 02:11:00because I said to this LGBT organization, I said, "If they fire me and kick me out of my house, can I come stay with you?" And no hesitation. They said, "Of course," because they've done that with other people before. Because they have gay people get outed in Rwanda, they get kicked out in their house. And it was just a testament. I was not emotionally okay for a while, and I'm still obviously working through it. But without them, and without those two white cis straight boys. I educated them a lot because they watched me go through it, and they watched me get fired for potentially being gay, right? And that was a big education for them. But they were also very super supportive. They were very good about letting me cry on their shoulder, and when I told them, "You can't 02:12:00tell these people, or I can't be around these people," they just accepted it, and didn't say, "Oh my gosh, what do you mean?"

Maya O'Keeffe:

But yes, the LGBT community in Rwanda is incredibly strong because of, I mean, I'm very privileged as a white woman, right? And I think when my moms heard about what happened, they were obviously very understandably upset and wanted me to come home immediately because they were worried about violence, right? Which I asked many people and it would not have been a problem because that's not what Rwandans do as much. Especially to a white woman. They would potentially verbally harass, but they would not as much physically, that's more Uganda where it's illegal.

Maya O'Keeffe:

So they were super worried. I ended up staying another two months working with this LGBT organization, and I just totally cut ties with the Friends Peace 02:13:00House. I did end up telling one of my host sisters. I had dinner with her before I left and said, this is actually what happened. And she took it really well because I told her because she lived in England for a semester at one point. And so I sort of assumed that she had sort of been a little more open-minded, maybe. And so she took it really well and said, "I'm so sorry that this happened to you. That's not okay. I don't agree with my dad at all, and everything." So that was an intense couple weeks, months, whatever it was. So I'll send the music video.

Amanda Wray.:

Please do, please do, I'm going to go ahead and pause our recording here.