Oral History with Cortina Jenelle Caldwell

Amanda Wray:

So we'll just start by saying today's date, which is the ... Is today the 30th or the 31st?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

30th.

Amanda Wray:

30th. If you'll say your name and how you would like to be called, and if you want to give us pronouns and those things, I'll take all of that at the beginning of our recording.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Okay. So my name is Cortina Jenelle Caldwell is my full name, and I typically go by Cortina or Cortina Jenelle. And pronouns are she and they.

Amanda Wray:

So when were you born, 7/21

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Oh, yeah, so where, it was Morganton, North Carolina.

Amanda Wray:

Can you tell me what year you were born?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Oh, year. 1986.

Amanda Wray:

Awesome. So Morganton, North Carolina, and you lived there for how long?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So Morganton, definitely all 18 of my first years. I went away to Greensboro and 00:01:00lived in Durham for a total of about seven years and then moved back to Asheville, or moved back to technically Morganton for a month, but I've been in Asheville since September of 2011. So I've lived most of my life in Western North Carolina.

Amanda Wray:

I moved to Asheville in 2011 as well, so my-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Oh wow.

Amanda Wray:

This is my first job.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, it seems like a lot of people that I've met or come into contact with came into Asheville around 2011 or 2012.

Amanda Wray:

I feel really lucky, because I went out on the market a little early, just trying to see where a place I could possibly land, and this job popped up and I was like, Asheville would be a fabulous place to do this kind work.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

That's perfect.

Amanda Wray:

That I do, and yeah.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, it was interesting for me. I spent a lot of time up here as a child, but honestly, a lot of those memories just did not stick with me until I came up 00:02:00here as an adult, and I was having a lot of deja vu moments. And this might come up later, but just, I had a really surreal moment last year with my work and realizing that I was standing in the exact spot in the block in Asheville where my grandmother had ... I worked for my grandmother for the first time, who was the first entrepreneur that I knew. And then there I was, entrepreneur present day, and she was there at this celebration that we had for this art project that we did. So it's just, yeah, I think it's been pretty interesting to have these reflections of, this definitely feels like the place that I was supposed to end up, because there's so much history with my family here too.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

Well, we can start here in Asheville, or we can start in Morganton if you want.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. I mean-

Amanda Wray:

Whatever feels-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I think it would help if there's a question and then I kind of gauge what's Asheville, what's Morganton, and kind of go in between if that's okay with you.

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely. So in reading your profile, I saw that you had mentioned that you were from Morganton and you called it rural. And so I'd like to, what does rural mean to you?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. What does rural mean to me? I mean, I think rural as far as how I was raised or grew up thinking about rural definitely was that it's a small town, so by self claiming of that term, Morganton has always considered itself to be a small town. And I think also it feels like there's some sort of a culture around 00:04:00what it means to be rural. There's definitely not necessarily going to be your big tall skyscraper buildings in a downtown area. A lot of the times, the landscape is very natural. There's sometimes rolling hills or just open land. So to me, those kinds of things feel like they're rural. And then I think there's also kind of a small town mentality or a small town culture, which is that you look out for your neighbors. And there's this real Southern hospitality I think to being a part of any Southern rural town is ... And at least for me, I was raised on some very strong values around hard work and kindness and community. So yeah, that feels like that's the rural way.

Amanda Wray:

So what was Morganton like for you as a kid growing up there? Did you experience 00:05:00it then versus now in terms of difference?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I feel like I grew up as a kid living in these two parallel worlds where I had the world that I was a part of in my imagination and in my own connection with the world around me, and then I had this world or this narrative that was being projected onto me by everybody else around me, or that I couldn't really control. And it's interesting because I felt that way as a kid growing up pretty early. Probably around the age of pre-K, I remember having some pretty detailed memories of not really liking some of the decisions that my mom was making and trying to give her advice at you're four years old. And I think also with her being a teen mom and what that meant 00:06:00for her as being a black woman in the South with a child, and then by the time she was in her mid-20s ... I think she was in her mid-20s by the time she had all four of us, me and my younger brothers.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And so there was definitely a societally inflicted experience that I had based on those circumstances. And there was a lot of times where we didn't necessarily have things growing up that some of the other kids have and had, but for me, again with this other lane of my story and what my reality and experience was was I was just a happy kid. I was the kid that was always smiling and laughing, and I just was so glad to be living life. And it was interesting because it didn't really match my surroundings. And also, I always wanted to hang out with 00:07:00the most different kind of people that I could, even as a kid. And I got along really well with my teachers and did really well in school, to the point to where my education kind of became, or my success in school kind of became the sum of my wars, which I had to deal with a little bit later in college.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

But as a kid, I just wanted to be happy and wanted other people around me to be happy. And so there was always this imaginative creative world that I was living in and just loved learning. And then there was this whole other reality of certain things that we didn't have or couldn't have based on our demographics or where we lived in town. And I would also say that there was a third layer of being in a rural small town, especially for me, how I grew up was that there were many hands that it took to raise me. So I was very much the village kid 00:08:00where I was at the neighbor's house, or I was at my godmother's house, or family friends or my grandmother's or ... So I feel like I honestly spent a lot of time in community, which really was a big part of my experience, and my brothers didn't really have that. And I don't know if it was because I was the girl out of the bunch and they were trying to make sure I had interaction with other women or what that was.

Amanda Wray:

Are you the eldest?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

It was interesting. Yeah, I am the oldest, yeah. And the youngest just turned ... Well, he's 22 now but he recently turned 21, so we're all pretty close in age.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

So when you are in Morganton, do you still visit there? Do you still have family there?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I still do have family there, yeah. I mean, it's been interesting because I've had to really reconcile some of those multiple realities that I had with Morganton growing up. And again, it's like I had so many kinds of people in my 00:09:00life that I didn't have a traditional ... I didn't have a typical experience that some of the other black girls in Morganton were having. And I recognize that also me liking girls was something that I had to kind of keep to myself when I started to realize that. And so there was definitely a lot of pain as I started to develop and really conflict and collide against this identity that I was being shown about myself, and it didn't really fit. And so I had all these questions all the time that a lot of people couldn't answer. And so I just, I think that it took me a long time to heal my relationship with Morganton, and I remember coming home from college probably my sophomore year. It was my summer 00:10:00of my sophomore year, and it was so terrible.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And I had told myself that I wasn't going to come back probably ever. And just that I didn't feel like I belonged or that I was seen or understood any more and not like when I was a kid. And so it was a really a very intentional decision to move back in 2011 to be like, I need to go reconcile my relationship with my hometown and also kind of see it from a set of new eyes. And I went back to the house that I grew up in for the first time in, I don't know, probably since I was 18 when I had left there. It's complex. And now as an adult, I don't really visit Morganton a lot, just because of the nature of my work and I have a really 00:11:00big community here. But I do try to go. I'm there at least once or twice a year for sure to visit relatives.

Amanda Wray:

Well, you mentioned liking girls and coming to that awareness at a "whatever point." We'll have a coming out story at any point that you want to share it. But how did you care for yourself in that time? We rationalize, we do things. How was that for you?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Well, I mean, I kept it inside. I recognized it in middle school, and probably by normal standards, I would have considered the person that I was involved with my girlfriend. But it was one of those things for me where it was like, I knew 00:12:00that I had this interest in this person being my girlfriend or whatever, but it was like, well, it doesn't really seem like that's an option, so can't really call her that. We're friends and we hang out, and that's fine. And then there was this part of me though that knew that inherently, right, knew that I couldn't share that. I couldn't be open about it. And it wasn't until I went to college that I started to reconcile that aspect of my identity,... It was complex for me.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And I have to also name this because this was also very much part of my journey with my sexuality, but I was sexually assaulted when I was younger. It made me 00:13:00compound this feeling that I had of, I like girls I think. Because I was like, well, what if the reason that I like girls is because I felt violated by this male bodied person and that it's just me being angry and trying to find something to do with this pain and this trauma? And I had a boyfriend in college originally. I was really there to focus on my studies, but at the same time, I knew that that was the thing that I was "supposed" to do when I was in college was go find my husband or get married and all the things that they say that we should do as women.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So it wasn't until college when I realized that I had to unravel the piece around being sexually assaulted, because I recognized that it was really caging 00:14:00me in my own body and that I needed to know whether or not I liked girls or felt that I liked girls was because I was angry or because I hadn't healed that part of myself. And so I went about that journey and actually had a therapist for the first time in my life in college because of it being accessible at the student health center. And through that process, started to integrate my own identity and find some of the questions and challenges I had had growing up and just not really having the space to talk about it or to have a language to explain some of the things that I was feeling or noticing about myself. And I think through that process and knowing that I was healthy and grounded and I was doing the right things that I should've been doing to take care of myself and recognizing 00:15:00I still liked girls. I was like, okay, so I'm actually probably a lesbian, because this is still here.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So that was definitely a moment, and by sophomore year, that was around the time that I had also that summer said that I didn't ever want to come back home, the summer before my sophomore year. And then going into my sophomore year, I got involved with my first real girlfriend, and we were closeted for a while for many reasons. I can probably go into that later, but ... And so at this point, how old am I, like 20, 20 years old? Maybe 20, 21? And I still haven't come out yet, because realize now it was because I hadn't come out to myself yet, and I 00:16:00really had to take some time to do that first. And I feel like that's honestly what takes people time in their own coming out journeys is we have to acknowledge it and understand it for ourselves first, because everything else around us is telling us to be different or that it's abnormal to be that. And so that was how long it took me.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And right around the time when I was sharing with my family about me being sexually assaulted was also the time that I was like, and I'm also recognizing that I like women and that it's not because of this. And I'm really able to see this is in a really healthy place now because of all of the work that I've been doing. So, I mean, and it's been ongoing. I didn't actually officially come out to them in a more direct way because at that time it was like, it's kind of still like I think and I'm working on things. But then it was like 2011, I had 00:17:00broken up with this person that I had been with, the same woman for five and a half years at this point. And our relationship ended, and toward the end of it, the last year, year and a half, we were telling our friends and really admitting that we haven't just been roommates this whole time and best friends. We had actually been in a relationship.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

... So it was the breaking up of that relationship, which had been my stability through this whole rocky identity crisis I was going through, and I realized that at that point, I was alone. And I had been depending on this person for my comfort and my stability and my mental health and friendship and family and all these things, which was a lot to put on a person. But I think when we're positive we are in love, we do that to our partners. And so our relationship 00:18:00came to an end because she had been given an ultimatum by her family, so it ended pretty abruptly. And I was like, I need to take this opportunity to go work on myself some more, because I feel alone and I haven't talked to my family or seen them literally in years. And I don't feel like I can if they don't know all of who I am, because I don't want to keep walking around basically lying because I'm not able to be myself.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So 2011 was probably around my second wave of my coming out to people besides the people that I had grown closest to, which were my friends and my therapist and even some professors on my college campus I was able to have conversations 00:19:00with because of the sexuality and gender studies classes and I was trying to get as much as I could to understand things, so. So that's a long answer to say it was a long process, and I feel like everybody's coming out journey is different. I don't necessarily feel like it's a coming out moment. It's definitely a coming out journey, because there are different waves that it take, and it's never over because every time you enter into a heteronormative space, I have to acknowledge my pronouns or to identify that no, the person that you think that I'm with is not a man, even though you just assumed that. So yeah, it's interesting, but that's kind of for me how it started, and now I'm definitely more unapologetic about it, because I recognized how long it took and how much it took for me to get here.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, no, I agree with all that. And there's also this rhetoric of temporality 00:20:00sometimes, like with family who are resistant to ideas to be like, oh, you're still doing that? Oh.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. Yeah, it's not a phase.

Amanda Wray:

Very much so.Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, yep.Amanda Wray:

So let's see. You said earlier that your experience, and this may have been related to the assault and so we don't have to talk about that, but you said earlier that your black girl experience in childhood wasn't very similar to other people's. Could you talk a bit more about that?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, and I mean that in the positive light, because I feel like-

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, I thought so.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. And it's interesting because my life has always been both extremes at the same time, always. And even though there was some traumatic things that I was experiencing on the home front, my life at school was my favorite thing.

Amanda Wray:

It's a very grounding place, right?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

Or it can be.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Totally. Yeah, it can be. And I feel like for me, that was my experience for most of my schooling. And I realize how much of a privilege that is, because there are students who get profiled as problematic because of the color of their skin, or they don't learn in the ways that the teacher is teaching and that's considered to be problematic because they need more support, or they're being profiled because of the way that they're choosing to wear their hair or how they talk. And what was interesting for me was even though by identity, ethnicity, race, I'm a black person. Even in some of the black community coming up, it was like I was considered a white black person because I talked "proper" or because I was good at school or good at different things and was well-liked, and that 00:22:00was considered to be a white thing. And so for me, this is the other part where my experience being queer, I can't separate it from or exclude my experience being black because these are two oppressed groups of people and all around me, I was seeing people not necessarily have the same experience that I had.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And it wasn't even that I was trying to be a teacher's pet or trying to be people's favorite, but I was just so ... I loved to laugh and I was just such a happy kid...and I just loved learning things. So my curiosity was really what allowed me to connect with people in different ways while I as early as middle school, I was noticing my Black friends would always be in detention or ISS or get in trouble for small things. And that wasn't happening to me yet, and so I was aware of that. Even though it wasn't happening to me and even though I 00:23:00didn't know why, I thought at the time it was because I was a happy kid and I was the cute, chubby kid that people liked to make laugh. And I think I also, as I got into high school and even in college, I realized that it's not all the same for people who look like me. And so I was definitely aware of that, and that also caused some drama in school, and I could remember the person who ended up being my best friend and we've been lifelong friends since elementary, but when she first got to elementary school she was my arch nemesis and did not like me. And I was like, "I don't understand why this person doesn't like me." Because I haven't actually done anything to them. But it was because their experience was different. But then we had this moment when we were talking about black nail polish on the playground and then we became friends. And we understood each other. But I was definitely aware that people don't celebrate difference or standing out.

Amanda Wray:

Right.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

So let's see, being a code switcher, right? There's a lot of theory around that and how that can really create this fracturing within communities, especially among girls and stuff like that. One of the things that I've heard a lot of people say, and I experienced this myself, in the trying to come out to yourself, you do all of these other kind of behaviors to overcompensate for what you already know as your own queerness, and you don't want to disappoint people or ... Did you feel any of that kind of guilt around, I know this about myself, but I'm not sure what to do with this information? Or how did that feel as an adolescent? Not necessarily once you got to college.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I mean, it was definitely isolating, because ... Yeah, I mean, it was isolating, but it was like, I didn't want it to be a thing that got in the way. And even though looking back, I feel like there were probably some of my friends in middle or high school that I may have been attracted to, but I wasn't going to tell them that. I basically kind of suppressed it, and that was the part where it was like, that took a lot of work to really get at why I had to suppress it and how I just knew that. But I think it goes back to environment, and I think growing up in a very ... I wouldn't necessarily say very religious honestly, because a lot of my family didn't go to church, but the ones that did, you knew what the core sentiments were about gay people and lesbians, and it was a 00:26:00homophobic environment. And people who were being called faggots or lesbos, that was derogatory, and that wasn't uplifting. It wasn't a celebration to be that. So yeah, I felt like for my safety, I didn't make that part of myself very known.

Amanda Wray:

Alright, so I had something else, but it kind of went out of my head real quick. Before we move on to talk about whatever we're going to talk about next, can we talk about accents and things like that? So you mentioned that maybe you talked different, you did some code switching, those sorts of things. Let's talk about your Southern accent and how different it is.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Well, it's funny because I don't feel like I have one. I mean-

Amanda Wray:

Exactly, that's what I'm saying.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, sometimes it comes out, but that's again where I'm saying, my experience growing up was different than a lot of people around me. My mom's husband was from New York, and he basically often went on different trips up north and had family in other parts. And so a lot of times, maybe once a month if not more, we were on the road. I mean, I wouldn't even say once a month, maybe a couple of times a year. But definitely a few times a year, we were on a road trip going to New York. And so I didn't really have this limited purview of my life because I spent time in New York seeing what people were doing, and it was busy and active and ... Also, I think that that's what helped me to kind of be imaginative, 00:28:00because I was like, oh, well it's not just this.

Amanda Wray:

Oh, nice.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And into high school, I eventually stopped going (to New York) because I was like, I don't want to miss school. I actually want to be here because this is more exciting to me at this point. Because it's not like we could do ... We went as a family, so it's a whole different experience when you're just up there sitting in somebody's apartment. But the things that I did see and experience were helpful for me I think in not only communicating with people that had all different kinds of accents and ways that they spoke, but also just my perspective too. And a lot of times, whenever people are trying to guess where they think that I'm from, people never think that I'm from here. People are shocked to find out that I'm from Morganton. They're like, you? And I'm like, what does that even mean? People can be from anywhere. That means that there's some sort of stereotype on what a person looks like or talks like or acts like.

Amanda Wray:

Sounds like, yep.

Amanda Wray:

So do you remember role models, LGBT people that maybe weren't out but you, as a child or in your early college days, people that were role models for you, with LGBT identity in some way?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I mean, my (LGBTQ) first role model honestly was Grace Lawson who wrote Coming Out Coming Alive. Honestly, she was my mentor from the pages in her book. And I think I probably picked up a copy of that book in my early college years. This is before any sort of classes or any conversations and still being closeted. And still to this day, I have that book on my shelf-

Amanda Wray:

Of course.Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I've always kept it with me. So-

Amanda Wray:

I still have mine too, of course.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, exactly. And I was like, this is the book I've been waiting on my whole 00:30:00life. And it was so great, because ... So she's a life coach, and she was also an artist and just herself. And she wrote this book. There was poetry, there were some pictures, there were some resources, there were web sites and suggestions and tips. And a lot of it was ... It was like a manual in a lot of ways, but also whenever she wrote, her writing voice, she wrote as if she was talking to you. I felt like I was having a conversation with her, and she was pre-empting all the questions that I had had my whole life. And she was taking the time to be like, you're probably wondering this. So it was helpful. And I would say that that's probably the same for any mentor or role model in my life 00:31:00besides maybe my grandmother. And I mean, there were other people who influenced me, but I wouldn't necessarily say that I had a lot of role models.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

There was also a teacher of mine who just always has accepted me and has been in my life since elementary school. So people like that where it's like you know people will love you unconditionally and sure, it's going to be uncomfortable, but I think those kind of mentors are really needed-

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And then beyond that, in college, there were a couple of professors actually who were lesbian who were teaching some of the human sexuality and gender studies, and then woman and gender studies classes. And that was super mind-blowing and 00:32:00amazing to be like, I can be all the things that I am, because here's this person doing it.

Amanda Wray:

Yes-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So yeah.Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

What was your major in Greensboro?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So originally, I went into the pre-nursing program believe it or not and was in the pre-nursing program for about four years, and then the fourth year, I was like, this is not for me. I want to help people, but I think that this was revealing the other version of my life that other people told me I should do. So I changed my major to social work, and then did social work for a semester and then basically took a personal leave. I had to take a year off because I was like, this doesn't feel like the place for me. I've gone through all these, I don't know, catalyzing things, and I also felt like I was way more mature than the space was really allowing me to step into. Because at this point, I had been in therapy, I had been having hard conversations, I was basically partnered and 00:33:00living with somebody at that point. I was needing to work to support myself, so I wasn't necessarily needing the kind of incubation that at that time college was only providing in an on-campus, studious way.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So I ended up taking a personal leave, and then I worked my first grown up job. I got a job at the front desk at a hotel in Greensboro, And I think it was then that I realized what I really wanted to do and that I knew I wanted to create a business that was not just about making money, but was about enriching people's lives and it was providing some sort of community development. And so that was the first time that I really saw it. So then I ended up working my way through management, and I ended up getting scouted to come work at this resort in 00:34:00Durham, which was how I ended up in Durham. But then it was like, when I had the breakup and I moved back to Western North Carolina, that's when I re-enrolled in school, and I ended up triple majoring in business, education, and social science.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And then I also got my master's too, and I was able to do it online which was the thing that I was probably missing earlier in school because I wanted to just live my life and not have school take up so much of my day. So yeah, that was my journey with school, and my master's I got in management and leadership in the business school.

Amanda Wray:

I wonder if this experience, the COVID-19 stuff, is opening a lot of people's 00:35:00eyes right now to, oh, this actually does work for me. We have all these notions about online education, and just to hear all the faculty on campus be like, we can't do that. There's no way. And then, yeah.Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Now you have to. Yeah, exactly. But I think part of it is, and this is kind of me stepping on my anti-capitalist, anti-oppression platform for a second, but I honestly think that there have always been ways for things to be done in a way that works for everybody, and I think what COVID-19 is really forcing us to do is to really sit with that and to be present with the fact that this virus is not discriminating based on somebody's pronouns or sexual orientation or their race or the clothes that they have on or how much they can afford. Honestly, we're all in the same boat. And so also something really beautiful that's 00:36:00happening is we're forcing ourselves to learn these new ways of connection in learning and working, and I think it's just going to end up creating more inclusive spaces is my hope. But that was the thing too was like, until it's a must ... When it was just about a matter of whether or not somebody was going to be inconvenienced to do public education or college education online.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And now it's like, we just have to. It's no longer about whether or not you're going to be inconvenienced with having to create this way. So I think it's beautiful, and it honestly has been super exciting for me, because in my work, it's like, we can do so much more moving this online and really getting people onboarded to train and having trainings about online facilitation. So it's interesting.

Amanda Wray:

Do you want to talk a bit about what your work is now and ...Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Oh yeah, sure.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me about that.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So I think when I started Artists Designing Evolution, or ade PROJECT in 2018, I had no idea that it was going to be the thing that was going to really strike a chord with my life's work. But I think in having a grassroots community organization that really is focused on cultural inclusion for communities of color, but also self-sufficiency and really creating a more sustainable world where we're included in the narrative in a holistic way that both allows us to connect and understand our history from a contextual framework. So the places that we live and the spaces that we're convening, knowing the cultural history 00:38:00of some of the places. And then also being able to have this sense of purpose and identity that really allows us to show up and contribute to the world with our work and what it is that we're here to do, and I honestly believe the reason why there have been barriers for us in really reaching our full potential as a community is because there's this loss of identity or this lack of belonging in a lot of ways.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So I think for me as an artist at my core, that's not really something that I always lead with, but I think like I was naming earlier, growing up as a kid I was always super imaginative and creative and wanted to understand the world and just experience things in a fun, artistic way. And I was always, even in high school, I was making my own clothes because we couldn't afford it, and I was like I'm not-

Amanda Wray:

You put in some pockets in your own clothes. You have to make clothes for lady 00:39:00clothes to have pockets these days.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, right. So yeah, I think it's a culmination of all of my life experiences and I think just being aware that for me, this sense of belonging was this thing that I had been longing for my whole life but didn't have. And that also some of my traumas and my lack of success was because of being profiled by my own community or by others, and I think that's just a lack of connection. So with Artists Designing Evolution, our work is to really address some social and community challenges, and having this strategy to do, allowing us to lead from an artistic frame of mind both with artists or engaging in art making as a way to build community and to share resources with one another. And yeah, and so our 00:40:00five key focus areas are entrepreneurship, storytelling, service, training and education ... And, creative facilitation, a little bit. So that's our work,

Amanda Wray:

So when did that start?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

2018.

Amanda Wray:

Oh okay. So is it-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, officially as the structure that it is and being an organization, but like I said, I feel like the work really has been happening since 2011. I mean, it's not my first in this, but it's definitely the first community organization that I've had that's an actual entity. We're on our way to be a cooperative and have an LLC status and fiscal sponsors. So we're really, really, really established, 00:41:00which was intentional on my part because I think I want to have something that feels sustainable that can be really held by the community that allows students and community leaders and artists to really have a shared opportunity to shape where they live and really dig into the history of a place and also design the future of a place. So that's really what it's about.

Amanda Wray:

How do you recruit your artists?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Well, it's been relationship based, which has been really important, and actually this is also where I'm standing, it's like it seems like my whole life, and even maybe at least for the last nine years, it's been this collection of relationships that really once the decision was made to create the organization, 00:42:00the people were already there-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

We were already working together.

Amanda Wray:

That's awesome.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So it's like, now we just needed to have a structure to say, okay, this is the organization that we can move our work from together. So I think a lot of things have happened more quickly because of that too.

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

It sounds like you manifested something, right, for years, and then when you turned around, it's there. It's wonderful that it works that way.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

So then maybe that leads into how you ended up back in Western North Carolina. What brought you back here? Why are you staying?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, so I came back for my own personal healing and also because I recognized that there ... I knew that I wanted to start a business in 2011. The business that I started at the time had its own successes and I learned a lot from the 00:43:00first real business that I ran on my own-

Amanda Wray:

And what was that? What business-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, Visit & Venture, and it's a tourism product development company. And I had it until 2015 and there was a lot of work that came out of that, and offering workshops to craft artists to understand how to position with the tourism industry, being an adviser and kind of serving on certain kind of strategic committees with the CVB and the Tourism Development Authority holding workshops and convening partners. So there was a lot of different things like that that I was doing. And then I think ... So it was clear to me that I needed to come get that experience, and it just felt right to move back home to do that for some reason. So that's what I did. And then also, just the personal healing after the 00:44:00very sudden breakup and just also kind of wanting to figure out what I wanted to do next.

Amanda Wray:

Awesome.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

There is lots of sayings about the mountains and that you can't ever really leave, and if you do, right-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

You end up coming back.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

Let's shift gears a little, and we talked a little bit ... I wonder if you could talk a little bit about LGBTQ organizations or events or any of those sorts of things that have been formative or play a role in your own journey of coming to yourself and ...Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. I think one of the first experiences that I had with that was doing a safe zone training at NC State. And I don't remember what the name of the office was there, but they had a safe zone community and it was the first time that I felt 00:45:00really inspired to be in a place where they were openly talking about LGBTQ needs. And it felt like, oh, this is a platform that acknowledges that we're people too. And I didn't necessarily need to be certified. I don't technically know if you need to get certified in safe zone training if you're LGBTQ necessarily. I think it seemed like it's a thing for allies, but it was super helpful for me to go to. And that was, I think, maybe in 2009 or 2010 when I was living out in the Durham area. I think the other experiences that I've had, so definitely Equality NC, doing the interview with Brent. And that one was interesting because it was really about the religious undertones of my 00:46:00experience with being queer and what my experience has been like with that. And honestly, not a whole lot others.

Amanda Wray:

Do you have a gay bar experience? Have you been to Pride or any of those kinds of gatherings?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, I went to Pride for the first time I want to say maybe 2010, I went to Pride? I can't remember which one it was. It might have been Charlotte Pride, but that was a fun Pride. I always wanted to go to Atlanta Pride, never did. And also going to our Blue Ridge Prides here for sure. I've been a few times, and actually, the last time I went, I performed. And so that was really an experience to have. But that was in 2017. I've done some work closely with Youth 00:47:00OUTright and led some workshops for some of their youth and served as a youth mentor. I've also designed and led this workshop called Leaning In, which was about supporting black youth and an LGBTQ 101 for organizations that were serving black youth, because I personally feel like there's some work for me to do around dismantling these barriers and just around what it means to be both black and LGBTQ.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And a lot of us who are have this conversation around how often it goes that we have to choose one, because the space that might be welcoming of black people may not be welcoming of LGBTQ because of the relationship that religion has 00:48:00played in this narrative in our communities. And then on the flip side, not every LGBTQ space is necessarily going to welcome my blackness, because-

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

These worlds don't really collide in really intentional ways. So it's been interesting now that I'm naming the organization and work, a lot of it has been me in the position of teaching and providing some sort of guidance or information because what I've been seeking hasn't been there.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, absolutely. And so all of our participant that we've interviewed so far, especially those that have lived here a long time, talk about, did something happen in the LGBT community and particularly trans women of color somehow found another space or they were no longer welcomed in the spaces where they had been. And something happened pre-HB2, and I'm digging for that story. Why did all the 00:49:00trans women and the drag performers of color that were performing at O. Henry's suddenly, it changed. There's a big shift in the early 2000s and just, something happened.

Amanda Wray:

But I don't know what it is.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

Tell me about your Pride performance. What'd you do and ...Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

So one of my art forms is poetry and spoken word, and so I had actually just gotten one of my pieces published for the first time in this anthology that the International Poetry Festival puts together that's based in Austin, Texas. It's called D-iverse*city, and that was in early 2017. And it was really 00:50:00nerve-wracking. It was one of the first times that I was actually putting my writing out again after taking a pause for a long time. And so once that happened, I was like, well ... And also part of it too was my partner at the time was like, well, you've got to keep going. You should actually see if ... What if somebody asks you to do more poetry? Keep writing, maybe you want to perform in more places, blah, blah, blah.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I did, and just very synchronistically, I ended up connecting with the friend that I hadn't seen in a while, and they were organizing and planning for Blue Ridge Pride and asked me if I would be interested in having a slot there to perform some of my poetry. I had to think about it for a while, but I ended up saying yes. I performed a piece that had come out in the book and then a few of 00:51:00my other original poems. And it was a really great experience. I learned a lot, and after that, there was definitely a little bit of a following for a little bit. Me and a friend ended up starting this open mic poetry slam event called Woke Wednesdays, and we had been at the THE BLOCK off Biltmore for a few months, and then it became too much to keep organizing.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And it took other forms, because all the people who were involved ended up having branch off projects and things that happened. It was actually around that time that I started formulating what's now Artists Designing Evolution...that year of experiences, and I was just like, there's something here.

Amanda Wray:

So how did your family react to ... Did anybody come to see your performance or 00:52:00anything like that?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I didn't tell anybody, to be honest. The only person that knew was my partner, and I was on the schedule at Blue Ridge Pride, but I mean, unless somebody was already planning to be at Pride, they wouldn't have known. And it was funny because there were several friends of mine who were in the park that day either working or just attending that were like, holy shit. We didn't know you'd be performing today. And I was like, I didn't tell anybody. And it was great because they were all at my show and were really supportive. So it ended up working out.

Amanda Wray:

Nice.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

That's awesome.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

I want to be mindful of your time, so you tell me whenever it is you need to go.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Okay.

Amanda Wray:

I know you have lots of things going on. You were talking a lot about youth of color, and so in thinking about LGBT youth of color now versus your generation 00:53:00or even generations past, what do you think we have to learn from the young people today? There's a lot, but-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I mean, yeah, I mean, for me, I also recognize that I'm in a pretty ... The place that I'm in as a millennial makes it my responsibility and also my privilege to be able to still connect with middle and high school students in a way to where it doesn't feel like I'm so far removed from their present day experience that we can have honest conversations. And so I do have those relationships, and I have two leaders on my team with the work that we do with ad PROJECT, and they're involved in a lot of how we make decisions. And so for me, it comes down to not just listening to the youth of today, but also being 00:54:00willing to put them in positions of leadership or positions where they can learn and really develop into their potential.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And I also recognize that I have had people do that for me over the course of my life, so I definitely want to do that for youth of now. And I think it starts there. I think once they kind of see us paying attention and not just listening for the sake of hearing, but then also doing something with the information, I think that feels important. And I think also, being aware that as adults, even at my age, even with me being close to them in whatever way, I think it's also important for us to realize that we don't know everything and that their experiences, just because they're youth, are not invalid. I feel like I knew a lot of core things that I already had figured out when I was younger, but I 00:55:00questioned them because of authority and society and all these things. So I think that's really honoring their own wisdom and their own guidance and us understanding that we're not always the ones in the teaching position.

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely. I was going to say, trust, demonstrating I trust you, right, is part of listening and is a big part of that.

Amanda Wray:

So in terms of talking about the youth, then, looking back as a youth person, as a millennial, I also get to claim that, which is lovely, I wonder what ... I've learned so much about LGBT history listening to other people's struggles, people born in the '40s who were talking to us about this amazing stuff. And I wonder what kinds of things ... Often in our coming out journey, we don't always get to have that theoretical conversation around identity that you maybe got in your 00:56:00women and gender and sexuality studies classes. But I wonder in thinking about what we as a current generation of LGBT individuals have gained from the people before us? What kind of, I don't know, intergenerational conversation do you see happening in the LGBT community here in Asheville maybe, or anywhere?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

That was not a very well-worded question, so-

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

No, no, no, I'm sighing because it's such an important question and I think it's a big question. I would really want to give it my full, best answer. And part of I think the first thing that comes to mind is, we're still in the need of more of those spaces. We're still in need of more intergenerational spaces where the elders who have the things to share like Rosie at O. Henry's have this bridge 00:57:00and this connection point with the students of today. And I think that's where people like you and I and other people who are adults, working adults, come in. It's like, we are the bridge, literally. We're in between these two generations, and we've been talking about this generational gap and not realizing that our work is to help fill the gap and be the bridge. The gap is there because it's going to take more people to create opportunities that don't have to require a lot of work.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Not to discount how much time you've put in your planning, but something like being able to set up a conversation with students that you're already having in your class is just ... It's like, take them outside of the classroom into the community is such a simple thing in it's essence, and it has such a deep impact, so it's also not simple. But-

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I think that's the kind of work that needs to be done to help that. So to name 00:58:00some organizations that I've seen doing it well, I think one organization that I've seen doing that pretty well is SONG, Southerns on New Ground, which Alan and ... Hopefully you have a chance to interview them as well. A lot of the work that they have done with SONG is being a regional organizer. And just again, it's like you have all these different age ranges and levels of experience within that organization, and I think also similarly with ad PROJECT, I think for me, it's super important that we have both youth and elders involved in a very intentional engaged way so that we can keep the information flowing on both sides. But I think there's a lot more that needs to be done.

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely. And the bar scene has always historically been such an LGBT gathering space for a variety of reasons, right, but ... And that is shifting it seems like. I mean, what is your sense of how LGBT gathering is happening differently now, for you or for people who are coming out or ...Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because with my generation, and even with the generations coming behind us, it's like, we're choosing to socialize differently in general.

Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Whereas there were a lot of bars and venues and nightclubs where people could go and express themselves, some of those spaces aren't safe, either because of being over policed or something as simple as dress code violation or fights or 01:00:00even some shootings that we've had on the national level. It's really scary to be out, self-identifying that you're a lesbian or gay or LBBTQ at a venue and putting yourself in that position. Now it's a thing that we have to think about. And I think just in general with social media being introduced in my generation too, a lot of how we're choosing to engage does look like that. There are so many Instagram pages that you can follow that circulated around LGBTQ things. Anything you name, it's out there.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And that was not the case for me when I was in middle and high school, at all. And so just to kind of see as an adult, one, it makes me feel old, but two, it's like, okay, so actually the social connection piece doesn't just happen with going to a nightclub. A lot of times, it's happening in those kinds of spaces, 01:01:00and it's just getting incorporated in our everyday life. It's not a separate space, more and more. And then I think the other part of that is for me, I often ... I'm really the host type. I really love having friends and people that I love in my home and having house shows or themed holiday gatherings or whatever they might be. And a lot of the people that are there are LGBTQ. And it's just like, not because I'm trying to make it just for that, but this is my community. And so that ends up filling that social need, whereas we might've gone out dancing before. It's like now, we're actually gathering with our kids and friends and family members in people's homes, and that feels way more authentic to me.

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, absolutely.Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

Absolutely. Well, could we go back to one thing that's just personally super interesting to me in terms of rural and urban? We have all these narratives 01:02:00about, especially along the lines of the LGBT identity, that you can't be queer and in a rural place, or ... The rhetoric's all negative about that. But then you come to Asheville, and Asheville, everybody talks that Asheville is this LGBT friendly place and all of that. And Asheville's a little bit of urban and a little bit of rural. And so it just really kind of effs up all of these binaries, right, which is really beautiful. Could you talk about your experience in Asheville and maybe the reputation of it as LGB friendly, if you agree with that, and what you've heard and how you've experienced it?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of goes back to the intersectionality that I was naming earlier. It's like, sure, Asheville kind of coined itself as being this progressive, liberal town, but I think you have to really dig deeper into the question of what progression and what liberal movement are you talking about? So 01:03:00I think that's a thing. I think a lot of times when people have touted that, it's because there have been a large population of white lesbians and white-

Amanda Wray:

Gay guys.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Gays, yeah. I think there's also been a pretty significant population of black and Latinx LGBTQ folks. I think going back to the intersectionality piece, I don't necessarily know that people are going to be able to experience that in its fullness because until we deal with the race issue, you're not going to be able to get somebody who's already dealing with a race issue to also step into a space that's identifying that they're LGBTQ. So it's hard. It's definitely hard, because people just end up not mixing and mingling and having this 01:04:00inter-diversified LGBTQ social experience. It's very segmented by race. And that's been my experience is when I first came up here, one of the first things that I did was join a few groups on meetup.com. And one of my favorite Meetup groups that I had originally joined, I think it's called Asheville Lesbian Meetup or something like that.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And at the time, I was identifying as a lesbian and I realized as I've grown into myself that I'm queer. But it was interesting because it was the same demographics of people who were showing up to all the Meetup groups. I wasn't seeing anybody who was necessarily my age or my race or who had some of the same social or professional interests that I did. And so it was pretty homogenous in 01:05:00a lot of ways, and that's no disrespect to the group. I think the group was wonderful, and it is to say that I think there is more work to be done to create those spaces because otherwise, you're just going to have people having house parties with their friends and creating the kind of spaces that they want. Imay not look as though there's a population of black and brown LGBTQ folks here because they're not going to be out at the public venues.

Amanda Wray:

Right.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).Amanda Wray:

Absolutely.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah.

Amanda Wray:

Well, is there any story you wanted to tell that I haven't asked about or pulled from you yet?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I don't think so. I mean, I think if I were to say where I feel like the LGBTQ 01:06:00community is and is going, it feels like to me we're as close as we've ever been to having a society and communities that are aware and inclusive and engaged in creating these spaces that we've been talking about that are lacking, that are intersectional around race, and that are welcoming of different mindsets and perspectives. I don't think we can afford to continue to have such separated spaces because there's a lot that we can all learn from each other. And a lot of times, we have shared experiences and just don't know it because we're getting hung up on race or which letter in the spectrum you are or whatever it might be.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

But it does feel like for me, I'm hopeful that by the time an elder that it's not going to be such a ... It's no longer going to be taboo, it's no longer going to be a questionable right of treatment of the LGBTQ community, and there's also going to have to be some shifts with what we understand to be our faith and how that plays out in our acceptance or rejection of people. So there's still a lot of work to do, but I feel like collectively, our consciousness is probably as good as its ever been to keep moving forward. And especially now with COVID-19, it's like, if you can't tell that we're all in the same boat now, I don't know what you're looking at.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And I think it also creates this sense of connection and belonging and sameness 01:08:00that we need to be able to really break down these conversations and really one day hopefully look back and be like, why was I not willing to be friends with you because of the way that you love, the way that you do relationships? Why was I making such a big deal about that? Why wasn't I spending that much energy just creating my own perfect life? So that's kind of where I hope that we go, and I feel like it's possible.

Amanda Wray:

Have you had those kinds of experiences in your own family and friendships where you've been cast out?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure, both. And with both, I think that at this point in my life, I've learned to be unapologetic about who I am in any sense of my identity, because there's only going to ever be one me. I don't get to do it 01:09:00again. And honestly, at the end of the day, there have been many points in my life where I could've chosen to not live because the suffering and the pain was ... It felt that great. But I feel like now that I understand life a little bit better and as an adult, I can say those experiences that were really hard and seemed really unfair or unmanageable did make me stronger. And also, it's a choice. If I'm choosing to live and if I'm choosing life, then I also want to choose to live my life how I want to live it.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

And so I think it's really also kind of neat, because I feel like all of my LGBTQ friends have ... We're all spiritual seekers because we've had to do so much work on ourselves and our spirituality and just really be attuned to our 01:10:00responses to the world around us and be really, really, really grounded. We should be the people that are being called on to be in leadership positions and decision-making roles and mentor and to speak, because a lot of times, the things that we've experienced and overcome can really provide some sense of hope for other people. So I don't necessarily see my being cast out as something that I'm afraid to name or talk about, because it's real. But I also feel like it's our job to create our own sense of belonging within ourself, and then we can actually relate to the world in a more healthy way.

Amanda Wray:

So I took students to Birmingham for the first Queer History South Conference that happened last year, and it was the first time I think that some of my 01:11:00students ... There were three students with me. And after the first day of conferencing, we went out for dinner or whatever, and they were very emotional. And more than one of them had never been in a space of just all LGBT people before, right? They'd always been a minority in a larger group of people. And just them talking about wow, this authenticity that I'm walking around with now. I'm feeling unapologetic about it. And it is. It's just, it is a shift for sure.

Amanda Wray:

I wonder if you could talk about your shift in terms of how you identified yourself from lesbian to queer. What was that shift?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah. I mean, I think ...Amanda Wray:

Because language is so ... It's just so much of it, right?

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Yeah, it is. It's nuanced. Well, to me, and I would say that this is based on my 01:12:00experience and my own definitions, as well as having been a student of a lot of these frameworks over the past years, is to me, how I define lesbian is a female-bodied person who is attracted to romantically or otherwise another female-bodied person. And for a queer person ... Or exclusively to other female-bodied people, for lesbian. And as a queer person, I'm defining that as any male or female-bodied person that's attracted to any sort of composition of male or female-bodied people or other people that are choosing other forms of gender expression. So that's kind of the difference for me in that.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

I think I realized as I started to mature and into adulthood that it wasn't 01:13:00necessarily that I was only attracted to women, but that it's a little bit deeper than that for me, and I'm attracted to the makeup of a person, and that I find myself wanting to be in relationships with people who have a very either an expressed feminine side, where I think originally, I was touted as being lesbian because I was seeing that mostly in women. But I think also recognizing that that could be a male or female-bodied person, that we all have masculine and feminine energy. And so I have dated male-bodied people as a queer identified person. And also for me, being queer means that I'm not really engaging in heteronormative relationship standards. So it's like, there isn't a role that 01:14:00the male or the female plays. It's like, everything's up for conversation because things shouldn't be divided by gender. So does that answer your question?

Amanda Wray:

Yeah, I think that was beautiful.

Cortina Jenelle Caldwell:

Okay, cool.

Amanda Wray:

That was awesome.