Oral History with Antiga, Part 2

Antiga:Starhawk and call myself a witch and do things like that after that. I'll probably die fighting the patriarchy.

Miriam:What are you doing right now to do that?

Antiga:Well, I'm writing a little essay on, We Were Raised To Be Women. That means that... I just said that before, but I'll say it again. There are certainly times when it's necessary to take care of other people and set your own needs aside. Here is the dilemma of a modern feminist, is how do we tell the difference between is this really, truly necessary? Or are we fitting into a role that we had nothing to do with making but we are being placed in there? I'm 00:01:00not exactly sure how to do this, but I've been struggling to do it. Sometimes I say, "You don't have to know how you just need to know what." You just have to have your goal there, so that's how I look at that. I am still doing that.

Miriam:What do you think about the current state of feminism?

Antiga:That is a good question. Well, here is something to tell to anybody, anybody who you know and think is a feminist or who think they're feminists or who just want to investigate read The Dialectic of Sex by Shulamith Firestone. She was the most radical feminists of her day. You can still get her books on used books, but as far as I can tell she was never put on audio. She was so 00:02:00radical that she just got left behind. Here's what she says and I agree with it, "Women getting the vote killed the women's movement."

Miriam:Really?

Antiga:Yeah.

Miriam:Say some more about that.

Antiga:Well, it was too easy to co-opt women after we got the vote. Take them into the party, they won't be very, we can just put them aside there. I think that the women's movement was co-opted and that's why I'm telling everybody I know to read Shulamith Firestone because she was so radical. This has been, I don't know 50 years ago, probably. She is still more radical than most people can deal with. She does very interesting things. She says, "Well, Marx and 00:03:00Engles had some good things here, we'll take that leave rest. For whatever thing over here, we'll take that leave the rest." The reason it's called the Dialectic of Sex is that she's using the Marx and Engels technique but she is widening it very much. She knows that probably, Marx was not friendly to women, although he did have women in his analysis as workers, but she's an amazing woman.

Antiga:I have to say this just because I'm talking about her, she wrote this book and this was the only book she wrote that got published. She was diagnosed 00:04:00by a psychiatrist, we know how psychiatrist like women as being schizophrenia. I was talking to my therapist about it and she said, "No, she had PTSD." Her brother had committed suicide, and she'd had a trauma before that. If you ever talk about Shulamith Firestone be sure to say she did not... She was not schizophrenia at all. The other thing is what was going on for her. That's her.

Miriam:You think it's important that people today, especially women's today know about her ideas?

Antiga:I do think it's important that people go back and read her because she was so radical.

Miriam:Any other thoughts that you want to share about the current state of feminism?

Antiga:Goodness. Well, I am reading her book. I have a friend Roberta is reading 00:05:00it to me. Because you can get it in print but the print is miniscule. It's less than eight, I'm sure. Probably, about six. The state of feminism today? Well, a lot has been accomplished and I do believe that Shulamith was right, that we have lost the really radical women's movement, although she analyzes some of that in her book. I'll say this, there are some feminists who absolutely walk their talk and Gloria Steinem is one of them. When she went to go out and give tough she always, always had a partner who was black with her and she had a very 00:06:00close relationship with Wilma Mankiller, who's a Cherokee. She has always done that.

Antiga:They are definitely individual in them including me who walk their talk. What has happened to the women's movement is that I could say it's been split into different sections which you could say that but you could also say that it has just come to be that way. I think feminism is still alive, the Me Too movement is very good. However, what has happened, what she says, Shulamith Firestone said that feminism has a cycle and we will always get a backlash because you have the abortion backlash right now. I just say to myself, 00:07:00"Whatever they want, whatever they put in place, it is not going to work." Women have figured it out for ourselves and just in case you ever want to know old... what would you call it? Way of arranging when your children are born is seeds from Queen Nathalie. Women did take them and they did control their own fertility and we do have to acknowledge Margaret Sanger, she worked on that. Somebody else it's very, very interesting is... what is her name? Chicago, Jane Addams.

Miriam:Yes. I was a social worker, Jane Addams is my hero.

Antiga:She was. I don't think... All right, let me say it this way. I don't know who I'm quoting here somebody, "There's always been a women's movement. Always, always, always." As long as we've had patriarchy, we've had people standing up in one way or another to the patriarchy. Of course, Me Too movement is coming out which is interesting. That is what I would consider a spot that I liked that the women's movement is there, because so many women that have had that happen to them have been afraid. Not just afraid to say anything about it, but had been threatened. It's not just that they're scared. They've been threatened, their 00:09:00jobs are threatened their life are threatened. The threat, I think the Me Too movement has allowed women to find compatriots.

Antiga:I think the women's movement has gone on, even though I do agree with Shulamith Firestone that it was killed and the backlash is always going to be there. We're having a pretty horrible backlash right now and here's what I've come to just this week is that the news is dismal from my point of view, and Johanna was here. What I have now is women coming to feed me lunch every day. Johanna was telling me about being in a group of women who I think they're at 00:10:00least over 60, if not even older. They were looking at their love and basically looking at reclaiming the Crone, the old woman, as a powerful woman. They have a ceremony that they Crone themselves. Now, more and more those things are happening and the blood ritual ceremony for young women going into their first blood that's also being honored.

Antiga:I think this is a both and I think, "Yes, I think the women's movement has been co-opted, and they can't really kill it." It keeps coming back. There's 00:11:00a backlash, and it comes back and there's a backlash. I hope, and we have made progress. I mean, we have many women running for the Democratic nomination again and Hillary was there. I just want to say something about Hillary. It's so easy for people, even feminists to blame Hillary for voting for the war. Even Obama said, If he'd been there at that time, he'd probably done that himself. He wasn't there at that time. They look at, she did this one thing, and they forget about Hillary has for ever and ever and ever been for women and girls.

Miriam:And, children.

Antiga:And, children. She's just been there and been there and been there and been there and been there and been there. I get annoyed with people who say, "She voted for the war." Well, here's what feminist really needs to step up and 00:12:00say, "How is it that you can remember that one thing that you don't like about her, and you obliterate all the things she's done for women for girls around the world?" She isn't just done this in this country. She's been everywhere for women. I like Hillary, and I talked to somebody this week or not this week, soon, very soon ago, whatever that is. Who came here, and she thinks we're talking about the current people wanting to have the nomination for the Democratic Party. She thinks that a woman cannot beat Trump.

Antiga:Now, I don't know if this is true or not true but I think it's prevalent 00:13:00among people who are progressive. They think, "We have to have a man." I personally, don't like either one of the front runners, myself just personally. I'm going to vote this week by Friday, I have to get in my absentee ballot. I am going to vote for a woman because it's about integrity. I want a woman why should I vote for let's say, Bernie, because a lot of people like him. A lot of women that like Bernie, he says the right things. I don't, that's all. I don't care for him that's that. The '70s movement right now, well, I think progress 00:14:00has been made. I mean, in the '70s we couldn't have imagined having a woman be the selected person for a major party. A lot of progress has been made. We have a more virulent backlash than we've seen in a long time, let me put it that way. Both of those things are happening too.

Antiga:We've definitely, we, feminists have definitely made progress and I think-- Well, one of the things I have studied is the I Ching, and the I Ching says, "Perseverance for others." Rachel, my 00:15:00friend used to hate it when perseverance for others comes up. I think that is what we have to do, we just have to keep persevering and persevering and persevering and persevering and doing what we can. Here's what I think is important, for each woman to know that when she does what she can, whatever that is. Well, Greta Thunberg her book says, it's something like you can go look I've got it in the other room. "No one is too small to make a change." I think we have to say, "Yes, we make little small changes." I think I know this is true of myself, that I have had my thinking and have gone out into the world to places 00:16:00that I don't even know about. That we just have to know that doing whatever little bit we can do is enough. We don't have to push ourselves, "We're not doing enough." That's one of the things that patriarchy has to keep us down, "We're not doing it enough."

Miriam:Not doing enough. Not good enough.

Antiga:Yeah, not good enough, not doing enough. It's so prevalent, I have a friend who comes to eat supper every week. This week, different friends are coming in. I called her up and said, "You can't come this week." She called me up and she said, "Did I do something?" That is what we're supposed to think, we're supposed to think it's our fault. Of course, I'm going to go on blame right now. Blame is worse than useless, worse than useless because what women need to do is to look at... Suppose you and I are having an argument or some 00:17:00difficulty. What did I do? What was my part in causing this problem? Because what I did, I can do something about. When you're blaming, you're helpless. Blame makes you helpless, I just want to say that. That's going in my little essay that I'm writing right now.

Miriam:That sounds important.

Antiga:Yeah, I think it is. I think it is important for us to at least intellectually know that it's not our fault. Because we women have been blamed for everything. I want to say this, that mothers are particularly vulnerable for blame if she would have only done blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this wouldn't 00:18:00have happened to her son or daughter, whatever. Here's what I think that each of us needs to have a support group. It's very important for every one of us to have a good support group, because we aren't strong enough to do this by ourselves. The more support groups we can have of whatever variety. I mean, it could be 12 step support group as long as you have a group that's good, which they aren't always. The other thing I think, "You need a group? You don't have one? Start it."

Antiga:I think we have benefited a lot from what women before us did, the ones 00:19:00that you will remember is Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony. Matilda Joslyn Gage got left out, because she was way too radical, which is the same story with Shulamith Firestone. The two radical women are left out and Gage was left out purposely by Susan. B. Susan. B wanted, I think that's what Shulamith is talking about, is that getting the vote was supposed to be the first tiny little step in changing things. That men don't like that, of course, because they don't like thinking that they are going to be a minority which they're going to be very soon. Because as much as they can try to force white women to have children we're not going to do it, although I did have four but that was 00:20:00back then.

Antiga:Now what was I saying something important, I'm sure. The importance of support groups, however, it is. Last night, we had a small support group which we could call, there were four of us here. One of them women is going through a very rough divorce and we're just here, "How's it going? Call me if you need someone to listen." Stuff like that. Well, I think both of what Shulamith Firestone says is correct, and that many of us many, many, many of us are going 00:21:00ahead. Yes, I could name a lot of women who are going on with their life. Gloria Steinem is a really good example. She's just excellent, because she has always walked her talk. I suppose we could look... Here's the other thing, I may have said this before, but having daughters is hard, because it was for me, because of course, I wanted them to be feminist, and they probably are. I knew what cost it. There is a huge, huge, huge cost in the patriarchy to be a feminist. I both wanted them to be a feminist and didn't want to have to pay the price.

Miriam:What did it cost you?

Antiga:Well, my marriage. My two sons don't speak to me and stuff like that.

Miriam:Because of feminism?Antiga:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Miriam:Because of your passion about feminist?Antiga:The younger son beliefs and I did leave the marriage because I had to. I couldn't be myself and stay in the marriage. I left and my younger son beliefs I ruined his life. His life was perfect before then. The other one has never spoken to me a soft or kind word. He has always called me up. Luckily, I don't have to talk to him anymore and just yelled at me and said things like, "Well, you are a bad mother. As the only and as a mother, that's the only fat you have." Stuff like that.

Miriam:That's got to hurt.

Antiga:He's very gone. He is so bad. He treated his sisters badly too. One of my 00:23:00daughters doesn't even want to claim he's her brother, which is how bad it is. He does have a daughter and she was very unlucky. She never had a decent parent. Her mother had Crohn's disease and got into addiction very quickly and her father, my son, was just mean. He's been mean to her. Luckily, my daughter Georgia has taken over Emma Rose, is my granddaughter, that granddaughter, she has taken over giving her some decent mothering. If Emma were to never have children, I would be happy because I doubt if she could a good mother. I don't 00:24:00know how that is going to happen.

Miriam:Well, I was reading an article about you. About both of your grandmother's and your mother and your daughters have been active in feminism.

Antiga:They have been.

Miriam:Tell me about that.

Antiga:Well, I often say I come by it rightly.

Miriam:Yeah.

Antiga:The story my mother tells is that she was born in 1902. She must have been maybe only about six when this happened. She said, "I had to reach up to hold mother's hand..." She must have been a child, "For the suffrage parade." My grandmother was a suffrage and she also was part of the WCTU, which was not as feminist as I would have preferred it to be, because what was her name? 00:25:00Something Willard was her last day. There was a lot of racism in the WCTU. Of course, they made an assumption which at that time might have been logical to make is if they could get rid of the alcohol, things would be okay. There wasn't an understanding of alcoholism doesn't go away just because you get rid of the alcohol. There was racism there.

Miriam:Your mother merged with her mother and suffrage movement?

Antiga:Yes, when she was very little. My other grandmother, I know a lot less about her but I do know this for sure she lived in southern Ohio. Wilberforce college was the first college for black people by black people. They were the 00:26:00faculty, they did everything. This is my other grandmother, my father's mother who used to have the faculty from Wilberforce over to her house. She was in that part of being radical in her own way now, by her own time.

Miriam:Now this article that I read, was she the one that was involved with the Underground Railroad in Ohio?

Antiga:I think so.

Miriam:Yeah. Okay.

Antiga:I'm not 100% sure on that story, but I think so.

Miriam:Then, you took on the school board in Minnesota?

Antiga:We did.

Miriam:Well, tell me about that. What I read said your daughters inspired you to do that?

Antiga:Well, both our daughters. There was a woman whose name was Charlotte Striegel, and she was on faculty at the University of Minnesota. She was a mathematics professor. Her daughter and my daughter were in junior high and let 00:27:00me see if I can see what happened. Yes, it was. At that time the St. Paul school system is whom we sued were spending more money for the football uniforms for one school than they were spending on the whole girl set the lighting program for the whole. Charlotte and I went in there.

Miriam:Was this like in the '70s?

Antiga:Let me see Mindy would have been... Would it have been before the '70s? Mindy, would have been... Mindy is 63 now, almost 63. She would have been in junior high, she might have been 12 or 13. You can figure that out. She 00:28:00was young. Charlotte and I got in there, and it's an interesting story because it's like things probably are still today that we meaning, Charlotte and me, our suit was not taken seriously. Funny, after the St. Paul school system thought, drag your feet, drag your feet, drag your feet, drag your feet and maybe they'll go away. Well, they didn't know Charlotte is they felt that.

Antiga:Finally, the suit came to the point where the judge said, "Come up with a plan, you come up with a plan and St. Paul school system." They didn't take it seriously enough to come up with the plan. We got everything, Charlotte is for everything. We did that very well. That's what happened there. Of course, the 00:29:00time Charlotte... Charlotte's daughter was about the same age as Mindy was then. They were in college of course before, it was settled but we did it. I think that, that is why some of the women that are in the Olympics now, because we had that in the school system. I mean, it was just St. Paul that we were doing it with, but we would around and see, we better do something to the other school systems.

Miriam:That started things?

Antiga:Yes, I think so. I think it had a very, very big effect on the school systems there.

Miriam:The article that I keep saying or the article referring to is in Feminists Who Changed America.

Antiga:That's right.

Miriam:That's a great story about you.

Antiga:I'd forgotten about that. Yes. You can probably pull it up on the internet.

Miriam:I did. I have it right here.

Antiga:You did it. Okay.

Miriam:You were named as one of the feminists who changed America.

Antiga:Yes. Yes. That was true. Yes.

Miriam:That was just one example, I'm sure.

Antiga:It was just one example. I have been doing whatever I can, it may seem small and I don't think it was. In fact, here's another thing. I remember when Sonia Johnson was running for president and I was out there working for that. Those things have happened and most feminists will say and I just want to say it again. That we are standing on the shoulders of all the women who came before and there's always been a women's movement. It may not have been strong, the 00:31:00backlash has been really hard but we always come back. That's what I'd say about feminism that we always come back. Now, it's just the next time we're coming back, I hope.

Miriam:Yeah, yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'm trying to think how to phrase this. How do you see your lesbianism? Which is how you identify yourself? How do you see that intersecting with feminism?

Antiga:Very much. I would say that although I have been an actual lesbian, let's see what year was this event? Well, we've been in the '70s. When I made that 00:32:00decision, first, it was a decision. I know some lesbians believe they're born that way, and they can't help it. For me, I made the decision to do it and I did it because I wanted to say that's okay. It's okay to do that. That has caused some of the problems with my sons. Let me just say it, that they've not liked anything lesbian, witch. Who wants a mom that's a lesbian and a witch. Those poor things.

Miriam:Poor babies.

Antiga:Poor babies. Yeah. They've had a hard time with me as their mother, and in fact, that's another thing that happened. When they were in high school, we had an agreement that I was not allowed to go talk to any school they were in. I went to I don't know if Dan was in senior high and I went to the junior high, 00:33:00but it came out for him that his mother was a feminist, what a shame. I mean, that's one of the things that I think... he was, as teenage teenagers often are was very angry, but he has never, ever gotten over being angry, and he just keeps being angry.

Antiga:He keeps on making life hard for his daughter. He made life so hard for his sisters, that, as I said, one of them doesn't want to even claim him as a brother. Things are going well with him now. He's in Thailand, he's found a very young woman. Emma Rose is his daughter and she is upset that his young moment is about Emma's age. A little bit older than Emma's age. She's upset, but mostly 00:34:00Georgia and I say, "He's Thailand. Good, let him stay there."

Miriam:Well, you said you made the conscious decision to identify as a lesbian.

Antiga:Yes, I did. I did. I had been doing something, I can't remember if I talked about this before or not. In Minnesota, while I was still married, there was a group of lesbians who were doing something called, what was it called? Maiden Rock Women's Learning Institute. I got involved with them, and one of them was an MD and she had the money to buy a farm in Maiden Rock, that's why it was called Maiden rock, Wisconsin. For so many years, we had this farm out at 00:35:00Maiden Rock that we did gatherings. I was involved in that. I met a woman there who got me interested in the I Ching, which has been my interest ever since. Because it's really a good book, but it's so sexist. I've written a rephrasing of it. I have. It's called Yin I Ching.

Miriam:Have you published that?

Antiga:No, but you can go look at it over it at raven in Chrome.

Miriam:It's there? Okay.

Antiga:Yes, because I have made a few copies and just given them out.

Miriam:Great. Great.

Antiga:No, I never could get it published.

Miriam:Okay. You came out as lesbian that after your divorce?

Antiga:Yes. Yes, I did.

Miriam:How did... were your parents still alive then?

Antiga:My mother was, my father was not.

Miriam:He had died. How did your mother take that?

Antiga:I don't have to answer it. She took a pretty well. At first, I thought she didn't like it but then one time, she lived in Greensburg at a friend's home. She had some interesting experiences too. She was a housemother, at one of the women's dormitories at Greensburg, which used to be the women's college. She had the woman who was the... I don't know what you call her, in the dorm. There was a chairperson in the dorm, that's a different name, I'm sure. She was there 00:37:00and she says, "Well, why don't you tell... what was her name? Was it Sue? Maybe it was, about what you've been doing. It may have been that she didn't like it at first, but she came to accept it is how my mother did.

Antiga:I had very good... Well, there's one thing I probably mentioned this before. Co-counseling RC, was that stood me in good stead as we would say, in the end of my life because she was in a retirement home, she had she was diagnosed with dementia, meaning that she would often say the same thing five or six times. That kind of thing. I had had enough RC till then, till I could just 00:38:00listen and that's all I did. She loved it when I was there and she really hated it when I left because I was then living in Minnesota and I had to fly down there. It worked well at the end of my life for my relationship with her. I felt we had a very satisfactory end of her life.

Miriam:She accepted your decisions?

Antiga:I think so. That's what I believe. I believe that.

Miriam:Your sons apparently didn't?

Antiga:No.

Miriam:No.

Antiga:I don't think so.

Miriam:Your daughters, how did they respond?

Antiga:Well, my daughter's. My older daughter, she is the one being that she was 00:39:00the oldest daughter and the oldest one of my four children. She's much more like her father. She was in college and she was very enamored of this young man. He was trying to do the things that men so often do, tried to get her, to hurt her and he called her a feminist. That was very hard for her to be. She would have said, I'm sure she did say, "My mother is a feminist, but I'm not." She's never liked being labeled. I don't mind being labeled because, I'm a danger to the patriarchy and they know it.

Miriam:Yes, you are.

Antiga:They know it. They know it. It's an honor for me to call myself a 00:40:00feminist. I have been doing that for the last 56 years, however long that is. Did that answer your question or did it not?

Miriam:I think it did about your mother and then before that I was asking you about how you saw the intersection with feminism and lesbianism. I don't know if you want to say anything else about that or not?

Antiga:Well, it seemed to me. Yes. In my thinking back then I was thinking, "Well, that is the way to go. If you want to undo patriarchy, the best way to do it is to not need individual men." That was my thinking. I did.

Miriam:That was really political?

Antiga:It was very political.

Miriam:It was political on your part.

Antiga:It was. I'm not one of those that think, "I couldn't have done otherwise, I could have." I prefer it this way. I prefer it as my choice.

Miriam:Why is that?

Antiga:Well, I don't know. Well, the women's movement has been as much as possible about having choice and the choice as to when you can have your children has been a big choice and you see the backlash now on that one. It's just there. I can't say why about that, but it feels right to me. It's all I can say that, that was my choice.

Miriam:All right. Okay.

Antiga:Yes. Well, here is why--is I thought that I had no choice in it, "I'm a lesbian and there's nothing at do about it." That would have put me in a more 00:42:00helpless position and having a choice puts me in the position of making a decision about it. That to me is more powerful position. I guess, I could answer that.

Miriam:Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Antiga:That's why.

Miriam:Are you doing okay?

Antiga:I am.

Miriam:Okay. Great. There are a couple more areas I want to make forward with you. We can do that.

Antiga:Good. Good, good, good.

Miriam:Tell me about your paintings with menstrual blood

Antiga:Yes. That was so good. The way I did it, is I got pieces of paper and sat down on them and they have some... I've got some in there, if you want to have one, I can give it to you. They had come up with some very interesting images. Way back when after... I can't remember if I talked about the arts core, did I 00:43:00talk about the arts core?

Miriam:No. No.

Antiga:Goodness, that's a huge thing. Well, back in what was the year? 76. The College of St. Catherine's had a program called the Feminist Arts Core and it was patterned on Judy Chicago's work. That was a year in which I got in that class and it was a very time consuming, we met every day, from 8:00 to 12:00. Part of that Mondays we had consciousness racing and that is the thing that I 00:44:00would like to see come back. Consciousness racing is simply women sitting around in a group with other women and we'll have a topic like mother, father, brother, anything and we'll all say what our experience has been.

Antiga:Consciousness raising was about women having a spot to tell what their experience had been, and nobody is allowed to interrupt. You can't talk over anybody, you can't some in a really strict one. You can't refer to what they said even. It's set up so that you can talk and know you have support. We did that. Then we did, let's see on Mondays we have consciousness raising. We had the topic, and then we would make what we call quick art on Tuesdays. 00:45:00Wednesdays, we had Sister Judith, who was amazing woman. She was a women's historian, as historian we studied women artists. When we were at the end of it, she said, "Remember, there was some men artists out there."

Antiga:I think that and doing that took a few years off of Sister Judith's life. You can imagine the male person in the art department was furious then you've got money. It actually got money for it to go on for two years and it didn't. He 00:46:00was so furious, he would have done anything. That backlash again. How do we deal with the backlash, I think we are always going to have to deal with a backlash. One of the ways I think I'm doing it now is not listen to the news. Although, I find out what's going on anyway, of course, but focus on the things we can do for ourselves that crowning ceremony that Johanna told me about. Jude was here today, and Jude makes selfie dolls and she has workshops, sometimes I've been in her workshop.

Antiga:I said this before, but I can say it a million times. Women need to have a support group and that's part of my support group. Linda, Linda Messer is wonderful. 00:47:00She gets somebody to come, I have people to come for lunches and suppers. Although, Kathy who lives here does some of them. Mostly, it's wonderful each day, it's fun. Who's going to come today? What are we going to talk about today? Jude was looking at my... that's my shroud over there, they have told you that already. I had my friends each make a square and then we put it all together. When I die, it's going to wrap me up and put in the earth.

Miriam:It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Wow.

Antiga:Yes. All right. Anything else?

Miriam:The menstrual painting.

Antiga:Menstrual painting.

Miriam:You got involved with that through the art core?

Antiga:Yes. I don't know how I started doing that but I did.

Miriam:I dropped something. Go ahead.

Antiga:Well, one of my friends Terry was married and her husband looks at me and 00:48:00then he said, looked at me and he said, "Mary Lee this time, you have gone too far." There's a PS to that. Now, interestingly enough, my friend Annie Mohler, who lives in Colorado was cleaning out her storage place and she found that the ones that I still have are little one about this big, but I did do some really big one. She has some big blood prints. She has worked them into her art, there's going to be a some gathering of feminist artists. She's got a panel. She's going to do a panel and they're going to talk about her work. That's 00:49:00happening on February the 14th, this year.

Miriam:Here?

Antiga:No.

Miriam:No. In Colorado?

Antiga:No, Chicago.

Miriam:Chicago.

Antiga:Chicago.

Miriam:Chicago.

Antiga:I don't know what gathering it is.

Miriam:That's exciting.

Antiga:It is exciting. It's exciting for her. She came here and we made a little video right now because I'm on hospice. I have a music therapist, and the music therapist made a video of the two of us singing a song. We used the music to, that music. My music therapist put down some things I thought. We have fixed the words to that and made it for Annie. Annie is one of those women who's very much 00:50:00politically oriented and does a lot of work in that area.

Miriam:She's the one you're talking about with the paintings?

Antiga:Yes.

Miriam:What is her name?

Antiga:Annie Mohler, M-O-H-L-E-R.

Miriam:Okay.

Antiga:I don't know if she's... she doesn't think she's very adept at the technology. She might be on internet, she might not.

Miriam:That might have been what I saw on YouTube. As I told you, I saw three or four pictures on YouTube.

Antiga:She might have put it on there.

Miriam:I don't remember how they got put up. Who did that work but I don't remember anyone.

Antiga:Well, if it was recent, it probably is Annie.

Miriam:I'll go back and look at that. Well, so tell me about being a witch.

Antiga:Witch, all right. This came about, my daughter Georgia, was in school at 00:51:00Madison. Because at that time, Wisconsin, we were living in Minnesota had reciprocal tuition. You could get in state tuition. I was on my way to visit Georgia and somehow found out that there was a gathering called Pagan Spirit Gathering. I went to it and well, there's a preview here. At the end of the arts core, a woman named Deborah Marvey said, "Well, let's just keep going." We had a circle in my house where we did all sorts of things that I found out, which is 00:52:00do. We would sit around and we would sing, we would give each other support. That was another one of the support circles that I have had, I've had many.

Antiga:I went down there, Pagan Spirit Gathering, and I met Starhawk. At that time Starhawk, favorite aunt and uncle lived in St. Paul. I said to her, "Starhawk, if you'll come to Twin Cities, I will do the organizing and arranging local." She said, "Yes." She did. She came many times, after it was in the beginning of the '70s. She had just come out with the spiral dance and so she hadn't gotten onto her any further books yet. I did that organized for Starhawk and I became a witch by doing the organizing for Starhawk. That went well. It 00:53:00was after that, I did say somewhere that some of us, a few of us decided to initiate ourselves as witches and we did. I've done that for a long time too.

Miriam:Do you practice that?

Antiga:Do I practice it? Well-

Miriam:Would you call it Wiccan? Do you identify as Wiccan?

Antiga:I certainly do identify as a witch.

Miriam:I wasn't sure. Okay.

Antiga:Yes. That was another thing. See, my poor family had to adjust to lesbian, witch, feminist. They had a hard time.

Miriam:Divorce.

Antiga:Divorce. Yes, yes, that was pretty bad too for the boys anyway. It was pretty bad for them. I definitely identify as that. I have been doing that up 00:54:00until recently. Well, the other thing I have done is Linda Metzner, who is I don't know if she would use the word witch, but she's certainly investigating goddess spirituality. She's written a whole bunch of songs. There's a woman in town who practiced Yoruban spirituality, which comes from Africa. The gods and goddesses of Africa have come to this country in various places under different names. Linda wrote the songs before for goddess. One of them was the mothers, one of them was Yemaya, one of them was Oya, and the other one is Oshun. Linda is working on that area.

Antiga:I've been in that group and has sung with Linda's group for a long time, 00:55:00and have really liked her work and supported it. In fact, that is one of my circles, even though we aren't meeting now, they're meeting and I'm not going there. It's still my circle of support because Linda, get somebody to come here a couple of times a week to feed me lunch and it is really fun. I have that circle, even though I'm not in it the way I used to be.

Miriam:That's the Sahara Peace Choir?

Antiga:Yes, yes. That's Linda Metzner.

Miriam:I'm familiar with them and I've heard them singing lots of time.

Antiga:Yeah, yeah. Well, I went to, I was in a woman's song for a little while. I didn't stay in woman song but I went to their last concert, and I thought was the best concert I've ever heard them do. They were really good this time.

Miriam:I didn't go to their last one. I went to one at Warren Wilson maybe a 00:56:00year and a half or two years ago, somewhere there and I felt that was good.

Antiga:I haven't gone to every concert but I have been connected with them a little bit. Some years ago they had it was called the reunion course. Everybody who'd ever been in woman song can sing, they were just two songs and I was in that with them. Mostly, I prefer a smaller group.

Miriam:Do you? Is that why you didn't stay involved with them?

Antiga:Well, it wasn't exactly why I didn't stay. It had to do with words. There was a time when one of the directors like songs that had nice music, but they had words. It was somewhere back in my past because that have been woman song. I think it was, I didn't like the words to some of the songs we were supposed to 00:57:00sing. They were not what I wanted to sing, then I started with Linda and I haven't had any words I didn't want to sing with them.

Miriam:Anything else you want to say about being a witch?

Antiga:Well, just one.

Antiga:(Singing). Oya! You are the wind! Remove the hurdles from our path! Oya! Mother of nine! Protect us with your medicine! Tornadoes! Psychic energy! Wind of our breath! Help us with our words! Oya! You are the wind! This is one of Linda's songs. Remove the--I have to go back to the beginning. Oya! You are the wind! Remove the hurdles from our path!

Miriam:Beautiful. Beautiful. You said Oshun is one of them, that's water, right?

Antiga:Yes. River.

Miriam:River.

Antiga:Yemaya is ocean.

Miriam:Okay.

Antiga:There's two of those. I don't know if you've ever been to it once a year, she has a thing called Blessings On The Water. We started doing it down by Miss French Broad down, if you go to Riverside, we started doing it there. Linda prefers to do it at Black Mountain, where we can have friends. Is it friends? 00:59:00It's the friends home out there, Linda can rent that and she does.

Miriam:I find with [inaudible 00:59:13].

Antiga:So, you go there you go plenty? That's very interesting. Did I know I have to start interviewing you. Funny.

Miriam:Great. Great. So that's how fast because they sing sometimes when we're playing and especially blessings?

Antiga:Yes, yes, yes. Well, they were coming down to the river. I don't know, when you were there were you doing that down in the river?

Miriam:No, I had one part of them down. I've been out to Black Mountain several times, though.

Antiga:Well, Ann has been doing that and keeping on with that.

Miriam:Yes, absolutely. She's incredible.

Antiga:Yes, I know a many of the women in there, Shanti.

Miriam:I know you do. Juliet. Juliet, tells me she's one of your lunch crew.

Antiga:She is one of my lunch crew. Juliet, Shanti.

Miriam:Sue Ellen.

Antiga:Sue Ellen. Sue Ellen and Ann of course.

Miriam:They're great. That's an important thing they're doing.

Antiga:She has done well with that and talking about...

Miriam:Well, I want to ask you a couple more questions if that's okay. You're still okay?

Antiga:I'm still okay.

Miriam:All right. You talked about, I don't know if you're calling it co-counseling or reevaluation counseling?

Antiga:It is called both of those names.

Miriam:Both, okay. Would you tell me a bit about that?

Antiga:Yes. When did I get involved in that? After I got my divorce. I mean, after I had my divorce, I got involved in co-counseling. Well, let me see what I want to say about it. Well, I think I do want to say that it was started by a man named Harvey, something about that. I can't remember his last name, it doesn't matter. He is a man and he knows how to organize and he organized in a 01:01:00hierarchy, he just does it. Now the co-counseling technique is excellent and I have kept on doing it for 40 years. It's been very good for me, but I get annoyed at the hierarchy in the setup. I guess that's enough to say about them. The technique is really good, and I have several women I co-counsel with still.

Miriam:How do you find that useful?

Antiga:Well, I have to say one more thing since you asked me about them. This is how they're not useful, they have taken on marvelously they have taken on 01:02:00eliminating racism. One of the groups is whites eliminating racism. However, and they do have women's gatherings too, women only no man. They do that, but their focus... That's interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is a feminine focus, which should be well, it's familiar to me. Well, perhaps you should eliminate, cancel that out. Co-counseling, they have had some very, very, very good women's workshops, excellent. When the men aren't there, I do better. It's 01:03:00still organized. Well, let me just say what it is. Harvey was the person that started it, and when he died, of course his son took over. They're organized in a hierarchy. Well, I'm going to have to drink some water.

Antiga:They have various and different levels of hierarchy. One is the local and there is the woman in charge of the local and then the next level up there all 01:04:00level is a man.

Miriam:Here locally?

Antiga:Locally meaning North Carolina.

Miriam:North Carolina.

Antiga:Southern. Locally, there is a woman in charge in the local is the lowest ring of this, but the next ring of it's a man and the next ring up is Harvey's son. Who else? I know there's plenty of women in co-counseling that could have done that but they didn't. There's where about difficulty with them. I've got to answer your other question if I can avoid I put that there. Well, what co-counsel is based on is listening. When you take a class in co-counseling, you learn to listen well. Listening well means that you set aside whatever your own distress is for the moment and you pay attention to the other person, as though some of them theory counseling is really good. The theory of co-counseling is 01:05:00each one of us is born whole, good and wonderful. When we do things that aren't so nice, it's because of things that have happened to us in our life, distress they call it.

Antiga:This is part of this theory, which maybe is corrected, maybe it isn't. If you can go back, they always say work early in your childhood. They believe that if you can release some of the distress from your early years, that it releases all the ones that hook into there, and that could be true. I can't say that unnecessarily believe it totally, but they have good theory. If it weren't for their males on top hierarchy, I would like them. I'm a feminist after all, and 01:06:00there is a way that their organization is not good for feminism I think. That's co-counseling. The technique is wonderful and as long as you don't do anything, but counsel then if you don't have to be involved in the hierarchy there. That's where I am. I do co-counsel with women. I have been taken to task for my thoughts about men in RC. You are not going be surprised.

Miriam:No.

Antiga:I'm going to receive that, and tell them I'll call back.

Miriam:Sure. Go ahead.

Antiga:Hello. Well, I can't talk right now as you probably know, I bet you've been calling me. No, no, that's okay. I'll call you back up. When are you going to be there and I'll call you back answering the phone. What is today? Tuesday. Yes, I can call you back 5:30 or 6:00 something like that. You can do that, yes. We are going to get stuck. Okay, bye. That was Ellen, whom I knew it was. Which is why I wasn't answering. That's all right. Now, did I finish? Let me just get this back on it, but without falling apart.

Miriam:Get it.

Antiga:I think so. That's not it.

Miriam:Here let me help you.

Antiga:Yes, maybe you'll just have to walk around there and do it. I won't let it fall down

Miriam:I got it.

Antiga:Okay.

Miriam:There we go.

Antiga:Well, at least that told her later. She won't interrupt again. All right, RC my summary is, it's a really good technique. It does help you... All right, here's what I get from RC that listening, being able to be listened to, as they say in RC with good attention is extremely healing. The people I co-counsel with listen to me and the reason it's healing is you take turns. Suppose we have an 01:09:00hour, I'll take 20 minutes and you take 20 minutes.

Miriam:That's the copart, the co-counseling?

Antiga:That's the copart.

Miriam:All right.

Antiga:We always do divide the time and that's the brilliance of technique. It's brilliant as a technique. I think that's all I need to say about co-counseling.

Miriam:Well, I want to go way back was another question. I know you started college, I don't remember where you started college, but I know you transferred to UNC is that it, if I remember that correctly?

Antiga:Yeah, Worcester College in Ohio.

Miriam:Worcester in Ohio, okay.

Antiga:My mother made a prediction when I was born, and these things have a way of coming true because she had through saying it. "When Mary Lee goes up, she's going to go North." They were going to send me there to college. I went to Worcester for two years, and then I came back to UNC. At that it was the only UNC.

Miriam:Right. In Chapel Hill.

Antiga:At that time women were only allowed to go to Chapel Hill if you were a junior and you had a good average.

Miriam:Well, that was my question some somebody seems to think you might have been the first woman at UNC.

Antiga:No.

Miriam:No. Okay. That's where you met who you ended up marrying? Is that right?

Antiga:Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Miriam:Okay.

Antiga:He was in graduate school.

Miriam:What was the experience of being there like for you those two years? Were you there for two years?

Antiga:I was actually there for closer to three because I ended up... I can't exactly remember if I stayed there, but I did. Well, it had to do with the one 01:11:00I'm married, I think. I'm pretty sure this is true. Who knows? I had one year of graduate school in Chapel Hill, in Psychology, and I liked some of the professor's there. Then, I got married sometime in that time, I think in January of the last year I was there. Then, he went off to Bethesda, Maryland, to be in the Public Health Corps instead of the other options he might have had, but that would take care of his military service. He stayed there. I worked it when went there to protest, I had a job for two years before Mindy was born. Working for a 01:12:00psychologist at NIH, when I said Public Health I forgot to say NIH. Now, what was the question?

Miriam:What was it like for you being at UNC?

Antiga:UNC. Well, I got far off from there didn't I? Well, I had fun. I liked being at UNC. Although, I was forced to go there by my parents because in Worcester, I had gotten involved with a man they didn't like. This is another piece of my story, back to grade school. My mother was a teacher, and she taught in Ohio. She always thought she could have been quite right about this, that the education In the south was not very good. I proved her correct when I went to 01:13:00Worcester I failed the English placement test. I had to take a whole semester of remedial.

Miriam:No.

Antiga:Yes. I proved her correct in that one. Back to grade school, we were in Hill Creek for the first two years, but she didn't think Hill Creek was as good as Newton Academy. She sent me to Newton Academy as I was going into third grade, but my sister was going into first grade. She didn't have that my friends are over there and I don't have to be here. Newton Academy, one of the moment I met who was also slightly outsider, she was Jewish. At the time they live right 01:14:00around the corner on whatever this street is behind Newton Academy. I used to go over to her house for milk and cookies after. I was very friendly with her and I liked her a lot but she was Jewish.

Antiga:My father had a streak of what's called Antisemitism. Mary Jane was her name, I could not have her to spend the night at my house. He was very clear that I wasn't have anything to do with Mary Jane, which was really hard, because she was the friend that I bonded with right away and the other groups of kids were, already in their group. The reason this is important is that the one I'm 01:15:00married was Jewish and my parents didn't like that at all. I don't know if my mother always believed I would go to hell, but there was a long period of time when she felt that. My father also he was the one that was more upset about it than my mother. My mother had, I think she would have been okay with it. My father was just so adamant about it, that it was just blah, blah, blah. I had that experience. Of course, I got even with him.

Miriam:You married him?

Antiga:I married him.

Miriam:How did that go over?

Antiga:They hated that. They hated that. My mother was not allowed to come to my 01:16:00wedding. My father wouldn't let her. She had to choose.

Miriam:She chose not to come.

Antiga:She did.

Miriam:How was that for you?

Antiga:Well, it was hard. My sister came to my wedding, she didn't do that. Of course, she wasn't married then. I don't know how her husband would have... see when it comes to sexism, I guess, I want to say this about feminism. I understand why women aren't feminists because we live in a society that's going to punish you for that big time. Not just minor, big time. Anyhow, how was it 01:17:00being in Chapel Hill? Well, I liked Chapel Hill. I had fun there. I liked there was a professor that I liked a lot social psychologist. Then, I did have a year of graduate school there. Later on this was a difficulty in our marriage, I wanted to go back to school and I did. Then at that time, we were in Buffalo and the only department that would allow you to go part-time, I had four kids already was linguistics and I liked the linguistics professor. I did end up getting a master's degree in Buffalo in Linguistics.

Miriam:Wow. Did that cause more conflict with your husband?

Antiga:Yes. It did. It did. It did.

Miriam:He didn't like that at all?

Antiga:No, it was very interesting. He was of two minds. Well, the money thing, I guess I have to say something about this. The money thing, he used to refer to it as our money. It never was. There was never money available for something that I wanted to do, that he didn't approve.

Miriam:He was controlling that.

Antiga:He was controlling, that was that. I really had to leave the marriage to be able to be myself. I'm proud of myself for choosing that because of course, as I'm sure that divorce can be very expensive financially to a woman and it has been.

Miriam:You lost a lot of money through that?

Antiga:Yeah. Yeah.

Miriam:Did your parents accept your children? Did they have relationships with your children, after you had children?

Antiga:Yes. Yes. By then, it was my mother only, my father died. Well, my father was 25 years older than my mother.

Miriam:Yes. I remember you told me that.

Antiga:He died when I was pregnant with Mandy, it was my mother. Yes, she did.

Miriam:She did?

Antiga:She did. Yes. She liked them.

Miriam:Well, and I think that covers the things that I wanted to follow up with you about. That is so wonderful.

Antiga:Yeah.

Miriam:As before, let me just check my notes one more time. As before Amanda have this transcribed.

Antiga:All right.

Miriam:We'll send it to you in that large spot so that you can look at it and see if it's okay with you to put it in the archives.

Antiga:Yes.

Miriam:I was wondering if I could make a picture of your shroud. Would that be okay?

Antiga:Of course, yeah. I don't know exactly how you'll do it, but that's up to you.

Miriam:I can do it.

Antiga:You're the photographer.

Miriam:I'll se what I can do.

Antiga:You might have to take two pieces.

Miriam:Yeah, mostly.

Antiga:Is that-

Miriam:That'd be great. That's great.

Antiga:You got it?

Miriam:Yeah.

Antiga:Did you get it all?

Miriam:Uh-huh.

Antiga:Well, that is pretty good. Yeah. If you want to move the wheelchair you can.

Miriam:Okay, I'll do that.

Antiga:Get another one. You just take it out, all of that. Get it out of the way. I'm amazed that you got it all in and you did.

Miriam:That's great.

Antiga:Yes, she did get it all in. Good. Good. Good.

Miriam:May I make a picture of you?

Antiga:Sure. You just make it.

Miriam:Just looking like that?

Antiga:Yeah.

Miriam:There maybe too much light back there but I'll see.

Antiga:You can see. I don't know if you got over there, it would be better.

Miriam:No, I think this is good.

Antiga:Okay.

Miriam:That's beautiful.

Antiga:Okay, good.

Miriam:Okay, I'm going to do it one, two, three.

Antiga:Okay.

Miriam:I got it there. Can you see it?

Antiga:Well, I can see that my head.

Miriam:You can see your outline. All right, now, I have one other request.

Antiga:All right.

Miriam:Would you be willing to sing one of your songs and let me video it?

Antiga:Sure. Let's see what I want to sing. Yes, I think I want to sing that one. The one I already sang to you. I hear the women singing.

Miriam:All right, let me get this going.

Antiga:Okay.

Miriam:Okay, you're recording.

Antiga:(Singing). I hear the women singing their songs form long ago. In cages by trees and waterfalls, they're weaving on the shore. They call us to their circle reaching over time. Their voices crossing centuries. Their voices become mine.

Miriam:Beautiful. Let's see that.

Antiga:I should give you a footnote there. The footnote is [inaudible 01:23:27].

Miriam:I was needing that.

Antiga:Then, phone number. Well, did we put my phone somewhere else?

Miriam:No.

Antiga:Not that phone, my other phone.

Miriam:Your other phone? I don't know. I haven't seen it.

Antiga:Well, let me... I'm going to roll myself down and see if I can find it because a footnote is there. I've been collecting songs forever. I have given 01:24:00song library and I passed on my songs and as much as I can to Lynn Johnson. If anybody wants songs, they can call her and ask her. That's why I need my phone.

Miriam:Under here, here it is.

Antiga:Good. Okay. I'm going to get her phone number.

Miriam:Okay

Antiga:Lynn Johnson for songs.

Miriam:Okay.

Antiga:Hey Siri, what is Lynn Johnson's phone number?

Siri:Lynn Johnson has phone numbers for home and mobile. Which one are you 01:25:00looking for?

Antiga:Home.

Siri:Sorry, there's no home address for Lynn Johnson.

Antiga:I didn't ask for the address, idiot. All right. Let's try it again. She usually does this. Hey Siri, give me Lynn Johnson's home phone number.

Siri:The home number for Lynn Johnson is 336-560-7664.

Miriam:7664.

Antiga:That's good enough.

Miriam:She's in Greensburg?

Antiga:Yeah, she is.

Miriam:I recognize it, 336.

Antiga:Yes.

Miriam:Let me just check this, just a minute.

Antiga:That's pretty good. It says a good, what do you call it?

Miriam:Beautiful. That's beautiful.

Miriam:(Singing). Thank you so much for letting me do that.

Antiga:Good. That's a really good song.

Miriam:Now, you said you had a painting I could have? One of your painting?

Antiga:Go see if we can find it. Yes, but where is it? It's in the other room.

Miriam:Can you tell me where to look forward so you don't have to get up?

Antiga:Well, you can try to look for it. See, I don't know where I put it. 01:27:00There's a large box in there about this big it says blood prints on it.

Miriam:Okay. I'll go look.

Antiga:The one that I was going to give you is a little smaller.

Miriam:Yeah. I understand. Well, this bag?

Antiga:All right. I think, it's on the shelf backing up on the shroud. It might 01:28:00be anywhere in there though.

Miriam:Well, that's all right.

Antiga:Yes.

Miriam:It's not readily up here, that's okay.

Antiga:I'll see if I can find it. If I can find it, I'll tell you come by and get it.

Miriam:Okay.

Antiga:Hug.

Miriam:Thank you so much.

Antiga:Good work you're doing here.

Miriam:I'm just so appreciative of you and for you and you're willing to share your story and I'm so inspired.

Antiga:Okay.

Miriam:I am so inspired.