Oral History with Kelly Harrison - August 2019

Rachel Muir: Good afternoon, Kelly. This is Rachel Muir. I'm part of the Greater Asheville Oral History project, sponsored UNC Asheville, the YMCA of Western North Carolina, and Blue Ridge Pride. Thank you for joining us today. It's August 1st. We're at the YMCA here in Asheville, North Carolina where we both work. Welcome, Kelly.

Kelly: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Rachel Muir: I'm glad you're here and appreciate your time.

Kelly: Sure.

Rachel Muir: This is your story. And you can start anywhere you want. But let me tell you a little about the focus of what we're doing here in Western North Carolina.

Kelly: Okay.

Rachel Muir: First off, one of our goals was to connect the various communities that are part of the larger LGBQTQIA+ community here. One of the important components too is A, allies. So all of those individuals who have been here and 00:01:00particularly people who have lived here for a long time can provide some very valuable information in helping to develop our history and learn the secret of why Asheville has become such a progressive, welcoming place to the LGBTQ community.

Kelly: Sure. Yeah.

Rachel Muir: Secondly, we're trying to connect particularly younger people with people of middle age and elders so that our various journeys can be traced and we can learn from each other-

Kelly: Exactly.

Rachel Muir: And how our life has changed over time. So with that, I'll let you do the talking. And I'll mostly be quiet from here on out.

Kelly: Okay.

Rachel Muir: But you can start by saying where you were born.

Kelly: So I was born in Asheville literally, but I'm from Hot Springs. So I've lived in Western North Carolina my whole life, 47 years. And so Hot Springs, North Carolina is a very small town in Madison County. The Appalachian Trail 00:02:00goes right through town. So it has an eclectic group of people. You have what we would back in the day call "hippies" that would walk the Appalachian trail. But you also certainly had your mountain folk type of population. And you had a few retired folks. But that was kind of the good thing about living in Hot Springs. It was a community, very close knit, small again with 500 people.

Kelly: And let's see here. As far as me, I've got an older brother and older sister. My parents have been together for over 50 years, still live in Hot Springs, still live in a house that I grew up in. And my parents are well well known, so I did grow up in a home which kind of did affect who I am as a gay 00:03:00person because my dad was an elementary school principal. And so in a small county like Madison County with only maybe 16,000 or 17,000 people, a principal is well known. So that kind of did affect me that in the town of Hot Springs, my family was well known. And my father and my mother both grew up in Hot Springs. So Hot Springs is in our blood. The south is in our blood.

Kelly: And as far as whenever people ask about ancestry, my ancestors both on my mom and my dad's side came back a long long time ago. And I'm just a mixture of everything Irish, Western European, British, and Scandinavian.

Rachel Muir: Okay. So does your family still reside in this area?

Kelly: They do. My parents, of course they live in Hot Springs. My dad is currently the mayor of Hot Springs. My mom was in public housing. And so they are both retired, live in Hot Springs, and same house since 1973. My sister lives in Greenville, South Carolina. And my brother lives in Fairview, north of Asheville.

Rachel Muir: Okay. Would you talk a little bit about your upbringing and your experiences as a young person?

Kelly: Yeah. So personality wise, I'm an introvert and rather shy in person. And people wouldn't think that because I'm kind of outgoing and I'm a group ex instructor. But that's not my nature. So certainly growing up, I was a rather shy quiet person. But because I was the son of a principal... And my mom definitely pushed to be out there. I was a musician. I played the piano growing 00:05:00up. My mom insisted that I play the piano. My mom grew up poor. So therefore, anything and everything that was available, my mom and dad was going to have us do. My dad was not per se. But my dad was very athletic and very much into education. So anything that we wanted to do, piano lessons, sports, we were greatly encouraged to do it and those type of things. My mom is the youngest of 13 children.

Rachel Muir: Oh my.

Kelly: So we always would go out to my grandma's house, and out there, and play, and be around plenty of aunts and uncles. My dad has two sisters that were older. And they would always come and take us out and do things. So fortunately, 00:06:00and I say fortunately, that I grew up in a very supportive and caring and loving home. I say fortunately because as a gay person and growing up in Madison County, rural North Carolina, and going into a highly conservative, and I would say homophobic high school that I greatly needed that stability and love to carry me forward.

Kelly: So I mean I can't say my childhood was great because I knew that I was gay. I don't understand not being gay. Some people will say whenever was 15 or 16 or whenever I was 25, to me, as soon as I can remember if there was an attractive boy or a man, that's what I was gravitated to. I mean I had a word 00:07:00for it. I never had attraction towards women. Now I would certainly fake because that was what you were supposed to do. And I would oh... And that was the tough part because with that despite being in a good family, you learn a lot. You learn to be deceptive. You learn to lie or just keep quiet. So here you have a kid who is already shy and kind of guarded and an introvert, and so now he has heightened his awareness of what people may think or what I might say and those type of things.

Kelly: I wasn't feminine per se. So I was never... I mean there were a few times people may say gay boy. I don't think the word faggot was really or queer was... But all it takes is one or two times to hear it. And then I was the kind of 00:08:00person that, "All right. I'll change."

Rachel Muir: I see.

Kelly: Some people are like, "I'm going to do what I want to do." I was the conformist. So if I needed to conform, then I would conform to protect myself.

Rachel Muir: How do you think that influenced your interest? And as a young man, what were your interests when you were say in high school and elementary school?

Kelly: Well so I was always kind of intellectual. I mean I thoroughly enjoyed opening up the encyclopedia and looking through that, also whether it be foreign language. But having said that, with interest, there's a fantasy too of another world, of another place, of another realm, and that type of thing. And I don't know if I'm... The fella who played Leslie Jordan, I think that's his name, Beverly Leslie on Will and Grace, he had a one-man show. And he was talking 00:09:00about how when he was a kid, he would write in a diary. And he would be in his bedroom and write in a diary all of his secrets. And that's kind of the way I would feel is like is you're in your bedroom. And you're fantasizing about your secrets. You're talking about your secrets. You have your wants and your wishes. But I never told anybody until I was 18. So that developed anxiety, tremendous. I still have anxiety today that's kind of learned throughout the years.

Kelly: So certainly one of the things that I had interest in was psychology and that type of thing. And yes, I mean I went to a Southern Baptist Church and was liked and liked the people there. But I knew based on what was being told, not 00:10:00directly to me, but that being gay was wrong based on the Southern Baptist perspective. And I mean I grew up in this church. I was the organist at this church when I was in the ninth grade. But you just survive quite frankly. And you do...

Kelly: There is a certain period of time I would say I knew by being gay early on, you don't tell anybody. And then you do try to change or pray the gay away because you're stuck. And you don't know what to do. So I would say between eighth grade, ninth grade, and tenth grade, because that was quite a difficult transition from elementary school and high school because I went to a very small elementary school and where everybody knew each other. And there was a 00:11:00community. And then when you go to high school, it became highly more competitive because I was from a small town. And it was one high school for one county. And so all of a sudden I'm now the low man on the totem pole. And so not only was that transition from elementary school to high school, but now there's expectations of dating. So before, I could kind of put it to the side. But now, you're now in high school. And there is expectations of how you're supposed to behave and peer pressure. So that greatly increased my anxiety.

Kelly: At the same time, I had what's called irritable bowel syndrome which is an intestinal annoyance. It's not painful. It's just an annoyance. And that started whenever I was 13. And it's just bowel sounds and irritable bowel syndrome, you know?

Rachel Muir: Yes.

Kelly: And that in turn, my freshman year was probably the shittiest year of my 00:12:00life because of having to deal with that. I can laugh about it now. But that kid was going through a hard hard time back in the day.

Rachel Muir: Were there influences that first got your attention, either books or movies or personalities in the time that you look to maybe as a way to discover yourself?

Kelly: Yeah, well the thing about Hot Springs, being on the Appalachian Trail, and being... We were right beside called the Sunnybank Inn. And that's where a lot of people that would come on the Appalachian Trail would stay. And that would attract a wide variety of people. So there were a gay couple that had been there, but then they moved close by. There was also... When I was a kid, I mowed lawns. That was my job. So I had 12 different lawns that I would mow. And I 00:13:00would see them and say, "Hey." But I was...

Kelly: And then actually there was a lesbian couple that I mowed their lawn. They lived in Salisbury. That was there once mother's home. That was kind of like a retreat. And I would mow their lawn. Now they were two women. But once you tell one person... You just don't know who to trust. You just don't know. I mean it's you're aware that they probably are gay. They are probably a couple. But this is 1980's. And you just once... And my parents didn't know.

Kelly: And I was also in terms of who I was, I also tried to be the perfect little kid. So I tried to compensate for the internal struggles, and also tried 00:14:00to compensate for possibly letting my family down. So I tried to be perfect. I never got in trouble. I never had any problems. Good grades, I graduated 10th in my class. I played the piano. I played the organ at church, mowed lawns. You never had any problems with me. But there was this tremendous amount of anxiety and struggle that was in me. So there is that.

Kelly: Now granted, again I went to high school in 1986. AIDS was already a big issue. I mean they didn't really know everything. So that was you're 14, 15, 16 years old. And AIDS was just kind of being known. And it's being known as gay people had it. So if you were to say... And I did experiment or play with other boys. But you'd just be fearful because not only are you fearful of people 00:15:00finding out, you're fearful of possibly getting AIDS. So you're just one big ball of nerve. And the way I dealt with that was my music, mowing lawns, and my schoolwork. I had friends, and I was liked. But because I had to keep secrets, I didn't really want to be around because I couldn't be who I wanted to be.

Rachel Muir: You kept a-

Kelly: I kept a distance.

Rachel Muir: Distance. Okay.

Kelly: Yeah, and probably still today to a certain extent. Yeah.

Rachel Muir: So what institutions as you were growing up and since you've been here almost your whole life, what kind of institutions have been helpful? What kind of institutions have been barriers?

Kelly: So when I was about 17, and I was driving, there was a Pride... I don't think it was a Pride parade. It was more of like a Pride gathering or 00:16:00celebration. So this would've been in 1989, 1988, '89, '90. I can't really remember. I graduated from high school in 1990. But I remember I think I came to UNC Asheville or I came somewhere. And I remember... Or maybe I read the paper. And where there was going to be a gay, lesbian celebration Pride something. And my parents of course trusted me whenever I want to drive to. If I want to go to Asheville which I would do even at 17 because I'd go to a dentist or a doctor whatever. So they end up... So anyway, I told my parents that I was going to go into Asheville. I didn't say what it was for.

Kelly: So I remember parking nervous and that kind of stuff. And it was behind what was tracks at the time which was Ashvegas. So you have Ashvegas which is 00:17:00South French Broad Avenue, close to where the federal building is at. And so I remember there is a bunch of gay people. I didn't know gay people. And they were playing volleyball. And so I went in. I had my shades on because I didn't want anybody to recognize me. I remember sitting down. But again, I'm a shy person, and I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't socialize with anybody. But I thought, "Well if anything, here's other people that are like me."

Kelly: So I left that. And I remember touring UNC Asheville which is where I got my undergraduate degree at. And I guess looking around, I probably saw... We had a newspaper called Community Connections. I don't think that's going on anymore. But it was Community Connections. And so that was a newspaper. I also remember the blue banner which was the newspaper, maybe still have. I don't know-

Rachel Muir: They do.

Kelly: They may have changed. And so you would look... Because you were searching for something, you would search for something. So whether it be a newspaper or Community Connections or anything, you are always looking for events. Is there something happening? Is there some way that I can reach out for somebody or something? And I'm sure whenever I looked into UNC Asheville, I know they had a gay support group. So I probably saw that in there. I remember... You know just something that was open minded and oriented because that was never ever in where I was from. A small town, small community, you don't see anything gay related. And if you do, it's going to be, "They're going to hell," or something negative.

Kelly: So once I saw that, and again my nerves were not great. So I decided to 00:19:00go to UNC Asheville. And then my parents got me an apartment. I think my parents recognized that I had a nervous issue. But I don't think... I don't know. I don't think they... I guess I was good at hiding. I was good at hiding.

Rachel Muir: Oh they didn't make any connection between your anxiety-

Kelly: No.

Rachel Muir: And what might cause it?

Kelly: Well when you're doing well in school, and you're a good kid, and you're an organist, and you work; you'll go, "He doesn't have any problems." So you learn to compensate and then compensate. So there was that.

Kelly: And also, what was also another greatly greatly... I don't think they have it anymore. But it was called Closer. And you had... Closer, it's a community liaison, I can't remember, support for gay people, but for anybody 00:20:00really. And that would at All Souls' Episcopal Church.

Rachel Muir: Okay. My church.

Kelly: Yeah. And Van and Joan Marshall were the sort of leaders of Closer. And so you would go there and kind of have a good sense of just, "Here's a place..." I think another important factor too is it was in a bar. When I got into UNC Asheville, I did go to of course the gay bar Scandals, Tracks, O'henry's. But the problem with that is you have alcohol. You have smoking. And then all that probably leads to sex and those type of things. But UNC Asheville, I mean that's the reason I went. I mean I was not about to go to a religious institution. I 00:21:00was smart enough not to do that because I was like I just know. So whenever I graduated and left, my belief of the Baptist Church was like I'm gone, never coming back.

Rachel Muir: So Closer, this was a community-based organization. It was All Souls' particularly? They just hosted it?

Kelly: I think the Episcopal Church in general was open to gay and lesbian folks.

Rachel Muir: Yes.

Kelly: So they were okay with having a support group for gay and lesbian people.

Rachel Muir: You probably met in [Zuperski] Hall or one of the meeting rooms there.

Kelly: Probably so. It had a wooden floor.

Rachel Muir: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Yup, that's where we met at.

Rachel Muir: There's still meetings going on there, various kinds.

Kelly: Fantastic.

Rachel Muir: So.

Kelly: Yeah.

Rachel Muir: Okay. That was one influence. You've mentioned the other institutions here at... businesses, bars, and restaurants. It doesn't sound like 00:22:00those were of particular interest or-

Kelly: Oh yeah. I mean I would go.

Rachel Muir: Oh you'd go. I see.

Kelly: I would go.

Rachel Muir: Can you describe your experience there or what they were like?

Kelly: Sure. I mean a matter of fact, the first time that I went to a gay bar was Tracks, and there was a strip show. The thing about it too is I would've been... I would guess 17 or 18. And you'd get in. You get stuck. And then you'd go in. And here would be this environment. I don't think I... I think I went by myself. And of course the way it works is you go around the block a few times. And you look to check it out and that type of thing. And then finally, you get the nerve to park and go in. And then you go in.

Kelly: The good thing about that is regardless of who you are, somebody is going to come and talk to you. And it may not necessarily be for sex. So the good 00:23:00thing is somebody is always going to come and talk to you. So who came and talked to me? I could not tell you. And of course I was going to have a drink because... But they're not going to serve because you're not 21. So I would always get somebody to get me a drink which was never a problem. I wasn't unattractive. So I didn't have a problem with that.

Kelly: But a couple of things that was kind of interesting. That was the first I ever saw the drag queen. And the drag queen, her name was Marsha Mallow or Marsha Mallow, and big big lady. But I thought that's cool. I thought, "Here's a drag queen. And she got a funky name." I thought, "How great is that?" And then with the strip show, I mean that was like sort of icing on the cake. So I was like, "Oh this is what I like. This is what I like to look at. This is what I 00:24:00like to enjoy," and that type of thing. And then I think I stayed until the lights went up. So who knows what time that would've been, one or two o'clock or something, and just hang around and socialize. So there was that.

Kelly: And then that was Tracks. O'henry's was downtown. So I think it's kind of off. But it was downtown close to where Malaprop's Bookstore is at. And I think it was downstairs. I would go there occasionally. But I want to say O'henry's was more of a country Westernish type bar. So I wouldn't go there as much. And then there was Scandals. I think Scandals was around. And then that was more of a dance bar as well. So those were places.

Kelly: And typically once I've got into UNC Asheville and people knew that I was gay especially my roommate when I told him, then I would take him along with me 00:25:00or usually you became friends with people. Or you would go to the bar, and then you would start chatting up with people and that type of thing.

Rachel Muir: Did you have the sense that UNC Asheville was a welcoming place as a gay person?

Kelly: Oh absolutely. Yeah. So when I first came out, I started in the fall of 1990. And I was a ball of mess. I hit it well. But it was starting to explode. My anxiety was just... And I had no medication. I had no psychological services.

Rachel Muir: Counseling.

Kelly: Counseling, nothing. I was an exerciser, so that helped some. And I was a rational person. So I could talk to myself. But I needed some more help. So Carol Schram, God bless her, I mean she's still alive. But she should be. I mean that was... But Carol Schram was the therapist. I went to Weizenblatt Health 00:26:00Center, is that it? I think that's what it's called. It's a little small... because the bottom part was the counseling center, and the upper part was the health services center.

Rachel Muir: On Merrimon Avenue?

Kelly: No, no, this is on UNCA.

Rachel Muir: Okay.

Kelly: Yeah.

Rachel Muir: Of course.

Kelly: Yeah. So then you're nervous. But you open up the blue banner. And there is information. That was 1990. Heaven knows in 2019 it's a totally different way of getting information. But then, you didn't have the internet or anything like that. So you had print media. And so I remember you go to counseling. And there was a gay support group that would meet there. So like anybody else, that cautiousness, you would walk around. And who's going in? And who's not going in? The good thing is it was positioned in a way that wasn't obvious so it was kind of hidden. So if you did go in there, you didn't feel that you were being googled at or anything.

Kelly: So I remember going in there setting up an appointment. So it could be... Maggie Weshner, she was the director of therapy. And then Carol Schram was another therapist that was there. And so I met with her and sat down. And she was the very first person that I said that I'm gay and probably bright red and nervous.

Kelly: And I remember her, she had a wooden desk. And she would put her finger like that. And she's like, "Well that's okay. That's okay." And a part of me was kind of like, "That's okay." That's not in questioning her response because I was like, "I have held this secret from the beginning of time, five years, six years, seven years old I mean, and kept it from my family, kept it from everybody." Friends did not know about it. Nobody knows about it. And then here I tell Carol Schram. And she's kind of like, "That's okay." And I expected more. 00:28:00Not that I was disappointed. Not that I was disappointed. I mean I was greatly relieved at her approach that it was not that big of a deal. And that led me to opening up and coming to the support groups that met once a week. And then that connected you with other people as well.

Rachel Muir: So that was one aspect of health services that you got to do and see in Asheville. What about other kinds of health services in the community at large? Have you found places to get help that you were comfortable with like finding a physician or-

Kelly: Yeah. I've been with my physician Dr. Baumgarten. He's actually retiring this year. But I've been with him probably since 1990. So I've been with him for 25, 30 years. So this is the last year with him. And I'm going to be going with somebody new which is a little disturbing because I really really really like my doctor. And he was the one that would help prescribe me with medications. I did 00:29:00go to... Let's see. Some therapists, other therapists I went to maybe later in time. I mean whether it be Dr. Buie, or Dr... I don't know. I didn't... I majored in psychology which I think was partly maybe to help myself.

Kelly: But as far as other health services... As far as HIV, I probably sort of was blind to that a little bit. I don't want to say nave. But I chose to not think about that as much. I can't say that I didn't participate in behavior that could lead to that. But I wasn't in direct position to be the person to get HIV 00:30:00suppose you know. But anyway... But I mean you could get condoms at the Weizenblatt Health Center at UNC Asheville. So that was available if you needed that.

Kelly: But no, I don't think there were any other health services that... I mean psychological services, yeah, and then my doctor, yeah, but I didn't really need any other because I was fairly healthy. Yeah, I didn't need any other services.

Rachel Muir: Okay. Now you and I are both employees of the YMCA Western North Carolina. Would you like to talk a little bit about your journey to kind of do a job at the Y, and how that's been for you as a gay man?

Kelly: Wow. So I cam to Y in many ways because I have kind of a slight midlife crisis whenever I was 38. And I've gotten a master's in social work. And I worked in social work from 1999. I got my master's in '98. So from '99 to 2007, 00:31:00I was in whether it be at the health department or some other therapeutic foster care adoption programs. And in 2007, I got burnt out. I was with the organization that treated children very much as commodities and not as children and families. So I did something extremely rare that I've never done. I quit. So my partner was working. I met my partner in 1992. So we can talk about that later.

Kelly: So then I had work because I'm not a believer in not working. But I wasn't employed for three months. So then I worked for UPS for five years which is a homophobic institution.

Rachel Muir: Really?

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say UPS as an organization, the people in because you have a lot of young people that start at UPS. And it's a very masculinish type of environment with a lot of competition. And even at the age or mid 2000's when you're 38 years old, you're hearing the word faggot, and not towards me. But once I heard that, I was again you're mindful of, "What do I say? Who do I say it too? Who do I trust? And who's ready to undermine me because I'm gay?"

Kelly: So anyway, I did that with beer on the side and kind of figure out, "What do I need to do?" Well one person said to me, "Kelly, you're too smart to be delivering boxes." And I was always fit. And I did body building. And I did... I 00:33:00was always moving and going. And so I asked... I already did cycling classes at a gym. And so I picked up a cycling class here. And then from there, I got my personal training certification. So it just kind of mushroomed into other things.

Kelly: And then Chris Coffman... In 2012, there were some positions open. And one was to be a wellness coordinator. Well there were two wellness coordinator positions. One would be a wellness coordinator here. And then one was to be a wellness coordinator at BorgWarner Turbo in Asheville which is where I'm still at. But so I actually applied for the wellness coordinator here because I didn't know anybody at BorgWarner Turbo. I didn't even corporate wellness. I don't know that. But Chris Coffman said, "We're going to put you at BorgWarner Turbo 00:34:00because you care." And I kind of thought, "Well okay." But again, I don't know the people over there. I don't know what this is. So that became full-time. So I worked from the bottom up, doing classes, working wellness floor, and then full-time in 2000... I think I started 2010, and then full-time in 2012.

Kelly: And so I do 22 hours a week at BorgWarner Turbo doing corporate wellness. And then I do... I work with [Lestron] at the Y since 2011 which is a cancer survivor group. I'm not a cancer survivor, but I do that. And then I also work with people with Parkinson's, personal training, group exercise, athletic conditioning, weight loss, all that kind of stuff.

Kelly: As far as the broader Y, it has evolved in my opinion in some ways, good 00:35:00ways from being I guess, "Okay. Here's somebody who's gay. Okay, whatever," to really embracing it and being more blatant. I'll give very much credit to Tina Weaver for doing that because I think she was the kind of person that we're in the South. And in the South, we need to be blunt in terms of we are gay, and that type of thing. And I remember telling Jill, our supervisor, that as far as spirituality, when I went back to a church, and I'm searching. And I went to an Episcopal Church. I went to a Lutheran Church. I went to a synagogue.

Kelly: Finally, I went to a Unitarian Universalist congregation. And in theory, if you say that you're for gays, well that's just in theory. But if you posted on the wall, then that is saying this facility, this institution in words, in letters posted, we mean it. We mean it because as gay people, we're always kind of like, "Well maybe they are. Maybe they're not." You say one thing, but you also not think something else. We're used to that. But if it's there concrete... because I remember telling Jill in terms of Pride month that I said, "Yeah, it needs to be in print and there because you're going to have gay people walking in. And when they see that..." Because you have some gay people that whether 00:37:00they're 18 or whether they're 70, you may say that we're accepting. But again, this little head back here is like, "Well yeah. I've been told that before. And then once we get into a group, it's a different story."

Kelly: So just like the Unitarian Universalist congregation, when I saw that, I was like, "Okay. They mean it. It's on the wall. There's no denying it." When I went to a Lutheran, yes you're welcomed. But there was nothing that said that you were welcomed.

Rachel Muir: Nothing visible.

Kelly: Nothing visible. And again, well maybe 50% do, 50% don't. I don't want to play that. Either you are or you're not, not half of half. So here to me... Now there are certainly people here that aren't. But the institution itself, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that the institution uphold this, and Paul Vest has been fantastic in regards to welcoming all of us and also taking a stance towards 00:38:00some... Maybe four or five years ago, some Ys in our organization in more rural areas were not very welcoming and maybe still aren't as welcoming, certainly as downtown and how we are, but has publicly stated this Y, "We're not going to do that. That is wrong," and has said that to us in our staff retreats. And I remember distinctly about four or five years, one Y in the organization was not on board and has some members that were being ugly. And he called out, not the people, but he called the Y and said, "That Y is not going to play that game." So I really appreciate them-

Rachel Muir: Yeah, standing up as an institution.

Kelly: Yeah, and I told straight people as well whether it be Paul or whether it be Jill. Me as a gay person, I'm still that person who is kind of shy, that 00:39:00person who doesn't want to draw attention to myself as being gay. It creates just unnecessary anxiety and that type of thing. So I tell people, "I need you to do it. I will do what I do that I feel comfortable doing." People know that I'm gay. But I don't want to shout it out. That's my personality.

Rachel Muir: It's not the first thing that you want to-

Kelly: No.

Rachel Muir: It's not the most important thing about you.

Kelly: No. No. And I don't want... It reminds me of what life was like when I was 20 or 15. So that's why I strongly encourage those that please be a voice for us because I'm living the life. Please don't expect me only because I don't feel comfortable. Some gay people are totally comfortable with that. Go for it. 00:40:00And I do my own advocacy in different ways. But if you can be an advocate for us because there's some of us that just don't feel comfortable constantly being put on the stage.

Rachel Muir: How do you recognize welcoming institutions, churches, businesses? What are the clues?

Kelly: The clues, so I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of... So certainly if they've welcomed a gay like, "All right. Well we're celebrating Pride month. And we're putting up posters. And we're putting up banners," those type of things. That tells me they're welcoming. There's no question about it. And if it's a church and they host gay meetings or certainly a gay marriage, then they're welcoming, that type of thing.

Rachel Muir: Or have gay clergy?

Kelly: Or have gay clergy, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Muir: We're going to do another session. And there's a couple of things I'd like to visit. One of them, I certainly want to hear about your personal life, your relationships. But a quick question if we have time is your interaction with other elements of the LGBTQ community. Have you gotten to know people in those different categories if you will and people of color who are gay, black, Latino? How do and how well do those communities cross over you think in Asheville?

Kelly: So I am not wholly connected to a lot of gay people, gay groups. I just don't. I mean I know obviously gay people and friends with gay people. But I 00:42:00guess I have the philosophy of I want to work with people. And if a person is heterosexual, I mean that's what they are. And that's who I'm working with. So I don't go out of my way. And I might be kind of unusual in that regards because for example we went to the gay men's chorus which I've seen the gay men's chorus maybe two times in my life. It's just not something I do. But I'll go to those events. And there will be all these gay people and that type of thing. And that's kind of a rarity for me. I don't search that. I don't feel that I need that.

Kelly: And as far as Latino or black, I kind of go with the social psychology 00:43:00perspective. If you're in my area, if you're in my workplace, if you're in my grocery store, if you're in my congregation, or if you're in my running group, and if you happen to be gay; then okay. But I don't go to special events or anything to seek out gay people. I don't feel like I need that. And I don't feel like I want that. And at the same time, there's this assumption that, "Well they're gay. So therefore you should get along with them." No.

Rachel Muir: No.

Kelly: So my friendship and my interaction with people is if you are in my work and you happen to be gay, then we'll be friends. And that's kind of that. But I don't-

Rachel Muir: It's not a criteria for friends.

Kelly: It's not a criteria for me. Yeah. And maybe because I just never felt that... Again, I'm not a big group person even though I do group ex classes. And 00:44:00we had a specific... But we were in a big group that it could be a little overstimulating for me. So I'm not as a general person, I'm not a big group person anyway because there's too much going on and I don't care for that.

Rachel Muir: Well a question in which I'm not proposing I have an answer for or that there is an answer. But one of the common threads in interviewing people and these communities in Western North Carolina, there's somewhat a sense of isolation. Now that's what prompted the first question about have you had connections with lesbian, transgender, black, Latino, other communities within the larger umbrella-

Kelly: Yeah.

Rachel Muir: And if you have any thoughts about how they might connect in an organic way as you mentioned, but just so that isolation perhaps can be reduced.

Kelly: I think probably yeah. I mean being a while gay male, I probably can get away with some things a little easier than those populations because I've learned to kind of blend in. And again, I'm a white male so people can... But I would say, for me in that situation, if someone is a black male and I work with him, then yes, I know then. And I'll be friends and that type of thing if our personalities work.

Rachel Muir: Sure.

Kelly: But otherwise, we're just coworkers. But I think like the Y or institutions that do say that they'll allow people who are gay to be open, to be who they are, then obviously that's going to increase the visibility of other 00:46:00gay people to where that they can come out and be seen, and be known, and be friends, and that type of thing because there is that isolation. And either you go to a grouping, a specialized grouping. But that can be difficult because you've got transportation. You've got maybe barriers to get to that place. And quite frankly, they may not mesh. So just assuming that this lesbian or transgender will get along with this, yes there's a commonality. And that's good. But maybe their personality doesn't mix.

Rachel Muir: That may not be the basis for a relationship.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. But when work is more open, I mean just BorgWarner where I do corporate wellness, you know who is gay and who is not. Now and there are I would say black and transgender at BorgWarner. And myself and some others have 00:47:00welcomed them in. But they haven't really came in. And there's just... I don't know if maybe our personality is not the same. And that could be or what we do because we are... Even though we're under the same umbrella, we're still different people. And there's different personalities. And there's different experiences. And there's different cultures. I did not grow up around black people. So I may not be as, what's the word-

Rachel Muir: Experienced?

Kelly: Experienced, yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you gravitate to what 00:48:00you're used to. And that's not necessarily a good thing. But yeah, yeah, what you're used to.

Rachel Muir: Okay. Well you have been generous with your time today. I'm looking forward to meeting again. I know that you had 45 minutes on your calendar. I appreciate that. We'll revisit some of the other things. But thank you again and enjoyed our conversation.

Kelly: Sure. Thank you.

Rachel Muir: Thank yeah, Kelly.

Kelly: Yeah, you're welcome.

Rachel Muir: Okay. That's interesting. We probably share some common history. I grew up... My dad was a mayor of a small town.

Kelly: Oh yeah.

Rachel Muir: It was 1995, before I came out.

Kelly: It's like when they were going to Atlanta. And I went to the gay bars, But it was... I'm not a heavy drinker. I'm not... And it was at the Heretic 00:49:00where they wear very very little. And I just don't... There's a part of me that's kind of like that's not healthy.