Oral History with Ron Lambe and Peter Kendrick

Horace: Hello. Today is Friday the 13th, 2019, and this is the first interview with Peter Kendrick and Ron Lambe. My name is Horace Vanderbilt. All right

Peter: This is December 13th, 2019

Ron: December.

Horace: What did I say?

Peter: Friday the 13th.

Ron: But it's December

Horace: That's all right. it's been a long week. All right. Can you all just continue?

Peter: So we were talking about how we- Ron and I met at Running Water, where we ended up being part of a collective together in a Back to Land movement in 1979.

Ron: Right. And we did form a collective. What was interesting is since we didn't have equal funds to buy it ourselves or to- even John came in on it, but 00:01:00he had almost nothing. So we decided to have stock, and he had a lawyer to help us draw that up. That is a funny story, remind me to tell it. But that's how I got to the inauguration.

Peter: The name of the corporation was Stepping Stones Incorporation, and we used it to just keep track of our investment in this land that we bought together, which was 16 acres on the side of Roan Mountain in Mitchell County. And the name of the property was already Running Water, given to it by Michael Wilson, the gay man who owned it and sold it to us, and who had started the gatherings there the previous year, 1978. Which came out of a meeting of the 00:02:00Southeastern Gay and Lesbian Conference, which was in Atlanta the previous year.

Ron: Right. And so I had gone to the summer gathering in '79. And I had read about it in the RFD [Rhododendron Fire District, a magazine] from 1978, so I put that on my list of travel things to do. And it was just one of those transformative experiences. It just opened up so many doors for me that I didn't realize were closed. So while I was sitting there looking at the place all by myself, down the road comes Peter and Rocky and John and David. Because David, I think, had been at the Gathering before.

Peter: No. He knew nothing.

Ron: Oh really? How did you find out about it then?

Peter: Through Sam Crawford.

Ron: That's what I thought!

Peter: That's why you thought he was the one. But no. Sam Crawford wrote to me from an ad I had in the Mother Earth News looking for a partner, through which I found Rocco. And I had visited Sam earlier and so we were good friends. He was at the first Gatherings to Running Water and heard Michael Wilson say he was selling the place, and I had written to Sam and told him I would move to Asheville, Rocco and me when we were looking for a place. So he told us to go and check it out.

Ron: So that's how we met. And we spent quite a bit of time. We went out and got dinner or something, I don't know what we did. But we just- ARE was part of- especially John Jones. And natural foods and all those things. We just said, "We 00:04:00could do this." We just had to figure out how to buy it with equity in our shares. So I think we had a lawyer, at some point, draw up something.

Peter: Well actually I think we did it mostly ourselves through a book I had on setting up corporations. And we wrote up this corporation that could do anything, according to its rules. And we pooled our money and we bought the property with it.

Ron: Right. But it kind of took all of the money we had.

Peter: Every penny. So after we bought it-

Ron: "What are we going to do?"

Peter: Yeah. And we bought it on the day of the Fall Gathering in 1979, which was an incredibly rainy day. I mean it poured. And we went to the closing in 00:05:00Spruce Pine, and then we drove back to Bakersville from mountain to where the property was, and the Gathering was in process. It was a wonderful homecoming for us.

Ron: Yeah.

Peter: It was a transformative experience right from the start.

Ron: It was for everybody. What it was, actually, we created a safe space for anyone who was there to be who he is. And a lot of times we don't know who we are until we have that safe space. So it's a safe space. And I don't know if that makes any sense.

Peter: Yeah. I always felt that that was transformative for me because I felt affirmed. Not in the sense that you're accepted, but like you're appreciated. And that was an incredibly different experience than anything that was going on 00:06:00at the time. And the major ceremonial thing that happened at the Gathering, for the gay men who lived there, was Heart Circles. And Heart Circles would be we'd pass a talking stick and people would say what is going on with them and what they're experiencing in life, and receive support from everyone in the group. So it was an incredibly affirming thing that was happening for us.

Ron: Most gay men don't have that in experience, because most gay men associate from a bar or something like that, you know. All different experience. But see, this was tied in with Back to the Land movement, and nature and all that. So it was a perfect place for that.

Peter: So once we bought the place, that was a vow of poverty.

Horace: Oh no.

Ron: We [inaudible]

Peter: And we made- and I tried to find a job there, but no one would hire me. I'm from Long Island, New York, and I could hardly speak the language in Mitchell County. So I didn't understand any of the neighbors until way beyond time to respond.

Ron: It took me years.

Peter: And so we made most of our money by hosting Gatherings, and then later by running RFD.

Ron: Oh yeah, RFD. Yeah.

Peter: Which is a country journal for gay men everywhere, a magazine that's reader-written. And often the actual publication of it, putting it together, is 00:08:00done by groups and passed off from one place to another or one group to another. When we first set up-

Ron: Here's the first issue from Running Water.

Horace: Oh my gosh, thank you.

Peter: And that is a picture that King Daxton drew for us. He's an artist in Atlanta, and this is Running Water made into a picture of its own world. And that is fairly accurate about the way the house looked, and the property and everything. It was very well done.

Horace: That's awesome.

Ron: Yeah. If you open up the back it has the moon.

Peter: And the magazine itself, RFD, which stands for Rural Free Delivery in normal usage, stood for something new every issue.

Ron: They still do that.

Peter: And the issue that we put out, that first came from Running Water, was called Rhododendron Fire District. That was written everywhere around the 00:09:00property, because that's what that area was.

Ron: Well, we were rooted in the Flower District. So we didn't have to have a fire. But it was...

Peter: King Daxton did art that had a lot of mandalas in it, and they went for high price. He was a really good artist. And I have some pictures here. This is a picture of the four of us who owned it, on the swing in front of the house.

Ron: The front porch. The porch swing was...

Peter: That's John, Ron, me, and Rocco, who was my partner. And here's another picture of me and Rocco and Ron in front of the house. This is a picture of the 00:10:00house that you can see what Running Water looked like. It had no- Running Water was kind of a boast, because it didn't really have it. I mean we had it for half the year. We would pipe a spring down into it, but it would freeze in the winter, so you had to go up and get the water from the spring.

Ron: And go to the creek and haul the water in, yeah.

Peter: And we never, when I was there it never had indoor plumbing. You tried to do something once.

Ron: I did, but it didn't work.

Peter: Oh well. You know, these things are so complicated.

Ron: I think they eventually did get some when we sold it.

Peter: Here's a picture of Rocco working the compost bin at the garden. And this is a picture of one of the first Gatherings, and what's interesting about this Gathering is the cohort of men who went to it all look about the same age. And we were all in our 30s and 40s back then. And as time went on and we kept 00:11:00associating with this group, the cohort aged just like us. It never reached down to men in their 30s and 40s. It's now, what? 60s and 80s?

Ron: We don't go to the district conferences much any more.

Peter: We need to get there and say that, Ron. We haven't even said what that is. This is a picture of a group at-

Ron: We had a few 20-year-olds.

Peter: We had a lot of fabulous dinner parties at Running Water.

Ron: The Gathering tradition was we would gather, and Friday, I guess it was- yeah, Friday. That morning- maybe it was Saturday- we had a Heart Circle. And 00:12:00that would take us to lunch. And then we had a dress-up dinner for Saturday night.

Peter: And then sometimes a talent show.

Ron: Yeah. That's after we got the new room. We have it anyway.

Peter: We'd have it on the porch. And here's a picture of people gathered on the porch. That's Rocco and Ernie, who we visited after we bought the place. He was living in Tampa. This was an older man who had also written to me through the ad I had that I met Rocco through. And he was living down there, and was renting an apartment. And we rented the adjoining apartment, and then we took out the wall in the closet between them, so that there was like glass French doors on either side that would join the two apartments.

Ron: But it had no heat.

Peter: It was in Tampa. And they thought they didn't need heat, but you do.

Ron: We do. It was like 40 degrees. It was winter, you know.

Peter: But we all earned money there. We were snowbirds, and it worked. So that was what our point was in going to Florida.

Ron: Yeah. You and Rocky did pretty well. I don't know what John did.

Peter: I think he was landscaping. And then- so Rocco and I- I moved out fairly soon because I needed to make money and I wasn't ever doing it in Mitchell County. So I went back to Asheville and rented a room from Michael Wilson, who sold us the place. He had a place on Montford that he bought, that has since burned down. It's a vacant lot now. And I rented a room there and worked waitering jobs. But you stayed on for many years.

Ron: Oh yeah. Up until '88.

Peter: Did you make money by working with the Western North Carolina Alliance at all?

Ron: No.

Peter: That was all volunteer?

Ron: Yeah.

Peter: Oh my gosh.

Ron: I eventually did, but not at first. I lived off the RFD. The Gatherings gave us some money, but they're just mostly- the fee was to cover the food. And it gave us a little extra we paid to taxes on the Gathering. And that was about it. So if I had any more it had to come elsewhere. Here's a few Gathering pictures.

Horace: Thank you.

Ron: Yeah. I want to keep that. You know, she build a studio up in the top there 00:15:00in the garden.

Peter: Oh really?

Ron: A pretty big building. And they expanded the kitchen, they doubled the size of the kitchen. They took all the logs out.

Peter: Oh. So Ron published the magazine from Running Water for about eight, ten years?

Ron: Yeah. About.

Peter: Somewhere in there.

Ron: Close to nine years.

Peter: And then I remember going to the ten year reunion and soon after that we sold Running Water and dissolved it and paid off the corporation, whatever our complications were.

Ron: I was still there, and I tried. First of all, it didn't work. I tried to work- I went to work for the Alliance, and that brought me cash flow. Not the 00:16:00first year, because I remember we had an office in Spruce Pine. I said, "That's close enough." And that didn't work. So I had to just move to Asheville. And I stayed at John Ferguson's for a while.

Peter: Oh. John Ferguson was a fairy who also was an adjunct music teacher at UNCA for a while, and a visiting artist for Haywood County. And he bought a house on Westover in the Montford area.

Ron: Yeah. And I stayed there for that transition period.

Peter: And he actually bought land next to Running Water at one time.

Ron: I think he did. Yeah.

Peter: And he ended up selling it. He was trying to expand the collective and get other people involved, which there were.

Ron: Those are my pictures. There's some Running Water pictures in there.

Horace: This is really really cool.

Ron: That's my mother and stepfather. That was my church period.

Horace: And this?

Ron: That was sent to me. At the ARE I met a guy who worked at the South Pole, and he sent me that. He sent me a- he was cute! He sent me that postcard. That's a postcard from the South Pole.

Horace: Sweet.

Ron: That album is falling apart.

Peter: It's showing its age like you.

Ron: I'm afraid it's true. But you know, I don't care. I feel fine. Age is in 00:18:00your mind. And in your body.

Horace: So once you had moved to Asheville with the Alliance, what happened next?

Peter: Well! What happened next!

Ron: Oh. It was tragic. I tried. First of all I tried to turn RFD over to- I can't remember his name now- which is good.

Peter: Yeah. It's better you don't. But-

Ron: But he went through all the reserves trying to look for a boyfriend, and it was falling apart. So I had to just turn it over to Short Mountain. Short Mountain is a similar collective in Tennessee. Central Tennessee.

Peter: Central Tennessee. About 40 miles from Nashville, near Murfreesboro.

Ron: And it's still there.

Peter: And it has huge Gatherings. It still does do Gatherings.

Ron: Oh yeah. See, we were- most of our Gatherings were 35-50 people.

Peter: The highest was 150, and that was a trial.

Horace: Wow.

Ron: Oh my God, we had fairies everywhere. We couldn't find them all. I didn't tell the story, I should do, about the three gay men on the bridge.

Peter: No. Don't tell that story.

Ron: Well we had a neighbor who would come. That was an old road where we were, and he would go down to have dinner with his relatives. And he was always respectful. So when we were having a Gathering he would cut through the woods. 00:20:00Well, there are these three men, having a three way on the bridge, and this old mountain man comes up, and he says, "You boys taking a rest?" They were freaked out, and we never saw him again. But I think it's a cute story.

Ron: Harold was always- he's died, I went to his funeral. And a number of the relatives came, "Harold always spoke well of you boys." He did. That was one of the things- I spent time. I met all of my neighbors and I knew who they were and then knew who I was, so when they get the word that we have a gay group here they were always all right. We had no trouble, really, until we had a black man come. That was a red line we had crossed. We didn't think there was anything to 00:21:00it, but the neighbors thought differently.

Peter: However, that was the Gathering which we had 150 people. We made a lot of noise, and we looked formidable. So we were not bothered after that, either.

Ron: And then plus the women, which is another story.

Peter: Yeah.

Ron: All right. It's a good story. So we had a Gathering, and we had a lot of commerce with Asheville, and there's a pretty strong women's community in Asheville, and they wanted to come up to Running Water. And we said, "Sure." So right after one of the Gatherings we packed up and we went down to Asheville to go dancing, and we stayed at Michael Wilson's. And said, "The place is yours." 00:22:00And I think it was right after the Gathering that we did that. I don't think it was the next weekend. I think they came down during the week. Anyways, so they were there. And we went back probably Friday or something, I don't know. And I asked their organizer, I said, "How did things go?" And she said they changed my tire on the Jeep. Leave it to the women.

Ron: She said, "Everything is fine, but do you have teenagers come through with sidearms?" I said, "No. We have hunters that come through occasionally." And she said, "Well, we were playing baseball bare-chested, and the boys, they didn't know what to do. We said, 'Do you know where you are?'" I don't know what she 00:23:00said. They said, "Yes, ma'am." Or, "No, ma'am," or whatever it was. They respectfully left. We never had any more problems. They got so confused. They were gunning for us, but the women saved us.

Peter: And then after the tenth year reunion, I reconnected with Ravenwolf Dancer at the ten year reunion Gathering. And then we closed up Running Water soon after that. And Raven came to visit me, who live in Atlanta. He came to Fork Dividing Mars Hill where I live. And he said, "We should be checking in with this group. We still have work to do. We still need to continue to the next 00:24:00level of what we're doing with the Circles and meeting with the guys." And he challenged us all to come up with the next thing.

Peter: so Ron and I drove all over the mountains here looking for a place where we could hold bigger gatherings. We figured there were all these camps that have- we would be at the end of their season, to do it at the beginning of the fall, which was- the fall equinox was our major date for having the Gatherings. So we figured we should be able to do that. And we drove to several of the camps, Tuxedo and other places. And they were interested until they found out who we were, and then they were booked or some problem.

Peter: No one wanted us until- the last place we went to was the Unitarian Universalist Retreat Center in Highlands, North Carolina called "The Mountain." 00:25:00And when we told them who we were they said, "We've been trying to figure out how to do this for years!"

Horace: Really?

Ron: Oh, we were welcomed with both arms.

Peter: So they hosted it, and so we created the first GSV conference there. Gay Spirit Vision. Gay Spirit Vision was a name that Ravenwolf Dancer came up with for these conferences, because he thought we should have our own spirit vision as gay men: where we're going and what we're doing with our own spirituality.

Ron: We sort of had that at Running Water Gatherings. But it wasn't organized, that part.

Peter: Right. And the fact that we could do it at a place with facility that provided food, would enable us to totally concentrate-

Ron: He and Rocky would cook for 50 people at a wood stove. It was amazing. One 00:26:00thing we did get was a freezer. We could freeze nut loaves and things like that. But they would cook all day. Because you never finished.

Peter: So we were doing that. And then we wanted to really start this off with a bang, and Raven wanted us to invite Harry Hay to come to the first Gathering.

Ron: I'll go catch this.

Peter: He had a connection with-

Ron: That's actually- I think that's about the time I got- there's...

Peter: There's that first Gathering, which we set up. That was something John did. It worked really well. We wrote about our corporation. And then Michael Mason did a poem for us. And then Rocco put a recipe. And then Ron and Michael 00:27:00wrote a blessing, and then I put something in the end. So that was in 1979.

Horace: Wow. That's really cool. Do you remember what you all cooked?

Peter: Rocco and I were vegetarians, so we did a lot of nut loaves and stuff like that. So we needed to- we wanted to get Harry Hay here. Harry Hay lives in Los Angeles. Everything we've ever done has been on a shoestring, and we didn't have the money to fly him out here. But I came across my desk at UNCA, because I 00:28:00was working by then as the director of the mathematics assistance center at UNCA, that they had special programs that they would fund, university activities. And we thought, "Well Harry Hay is well known enough we could invite him as a speaker." So I had David Hopes and someone else- Keith Bramlet- help me write a proposal in order to get Harry Hay there.

Ron: Cultural.

Peter: Yes. We had a cultural event. And this is a picture of Harry Hay in the Carmichael Humanities lecture hall. At the time-

Ron: That's a little nun's hat.

Horace: Yeah, I've had lectures in there.

Peter: Yes. So this is the father of Gay Liberation, giving a talk at UNCA in 1979.

Horace: Wow.

Peter: Yes. And he was thrilled to come, because he thought, "I'm going to Jesse Helm's state."

Ron: That's true.

Horace: 1979?

Peter: Yes.

Horace: Wow.

Ron: Oh yeah.

Peter: No, excuse me. I have my days wrong.

Ron: '80.

Peter: My years wrong. This is for GSV, not Running Water. So this was 1990. This was 1990 that he gave this talk.

Horace: That's amazing.

Peter: So what we did is we had him get that opportunity to give that talk-

Ron: That paid for his trip.

Peter: Right. And then we had the Gathering immediately afterwards, so then he could fly back. And he stayed in Mars Hill with us while he was here, until we drove the Highlands, North Carolina, for the Gathering. And this is a picture of a group of us in front of- on my property. This is Rocco, and Harry Hay, and his 00:30:00name was- Gutierrez was the last name. This is my friend Michael Head, and another friend. And John Burnside, who was Harry Hay's partner who came with him.

Peter: So we drove there in cars. And Raven isn't in this picture, because he took it. But he was with us, and we all then drove to Highlands, North Carolina, which took three hours a the time, because there was this huge wreck because of the great big fog thing that happened. The highway going out west, which is always treacherous, and the whole of western North Carolina was clogged up for a while.

Peter: This is a picture after that Gathering of all the guys on the back porch step of the dining hall of "The Mountain," in Highlands, North Carolina. There 00:31:00are people who are famous in the fairy community here. This is Crazy. This is Franklin... This is, he went by the name of Yarrow. His name was John, and this is his partner Monty. This is Caligloss. There's me and Rocco. This is Andrew Ramer, who became like a spiritual guide to the group. And he's written several books. He's featured in a book they sold. Here's a picture at one of the 00:32:00Gatherings. This is Rocco, this is Andrew Ramer, and I don't know who this other fellow is. Here's a picture of us at one of the GSV Gatherings.

Peter: This was one of the programs for a GSV conference, which they happened every year after 1990. And they have still happened, so they just had their 30th one. So these things have been going on for 30 years now. And this one was "Face of our Tribe." I think- I can't remember who did this, it might have been King. He took all these famous people from gay history, plus a few of us, and put them together in this.

Ron: That's my cousin. She got her license cleared.

Peter: Oh good. So that's GSV, Gay Spirit Vision. And I brought this to give 00:33:00you. At the 25th year of the Gay Spirit Vision, John- no, Bob Strade did a 25 year history of the Gay Spirit Vision Conference, and this is it. So you can have that.

Horace: Thank you!

Ron: I never had that!

Peter: What?

Ron: I don't have one of those.

Peter: I just printed it off the web. I think you can.

Ron: Oh. Okay. Yeah, he lives in Asheville now. We all kind of gravitate to Asheville or close by.

Horace: Yeah? Why do you think that is? Just how it happened?

Ron: It's the mood here. Anything goes here, so we feel quite comfortable here.

Peter: One of the things, then, after we left Running Water, is we bought the 00:34:00house in Mars Hill. And this is a picture of me and John Ferguson and our dogs in front of our house in Mars Hill. This is me and Rocco on the swing.

Ron: Yeah. John Ferguson is the way I got to Europe, if I recall.

Peter: This is with our dog. And we had beehives back here. We moved the beehives from Long Island to North Carolina. They were in Madison County. Then we moved them to Running Water, and then we moved them to Mars Hill. Finally we ended up getting rid of them. And we were also highly involved in SALGA. Do you know what SALGA is?

Horace: I don't.

Ron: It's Appalachian.

Peter: Southern Appalachian Lesbian and Gay Alliance.

Ron: And what was remarkable about that, it was gay and lesbian.

Peter: Very, very mixed group. Not always peaceful.

Ron: No. No. This is a dynamic group.

Peter: I brought you this, so you could have it for your collection. This was a SALGA t-shirt that I had.

Ron: Oh you drew it on.

Horace: That's awesome! They will love to have that in postal production.

Ron: Oh yeah.

Horace: Wow.

Peter: This was, I remember when I made all these wooden triangles, which would be highly illegal now, because they were like weapons. Thought we might need them

Ron: I remember the first day they tried to march. Peter and I were preparing the way. We tied purple balloons on all the lamps to mark the way. Someone came right behind us and cut all that- so all these balloons were flying.

Peter: This was not well-received in Asheville at first.

Ron: Oh God, no.

Peter: Asheville was not as open as it is now.

Ron: Well, I would take a little nuance with that. Asheville was all right. It 00:36:00was the damn- pardon my French.

Horace: It's all right.

Ron: It was the Baptist preachers. They couldn't stand it, and they- when we had our march, they were literally rolling on the sidewalks screaming and hollering. And I had a city councilwoman there. Her mouth fell open. She said, "I can't believe they're acting that way." The other big thing we had in Asheville was a nondiscrimination ordinance. Remember that? They had so many people they had to move to the civic center. And they had two lines and speakers. There was this cherubic Lutheran minister, I said, "We put him first."

Ron: And what I wanted to get across was- see they wanted it to be "religion" against us. No. We had our own religion too. And Joe Marshall spoke and a whole bunch of people that had religious background. We didn't have a bishop speak, but we did have clergy there. And that kind of toned things down a little bit. The funny thing is how it ended up is if we don't say "Gay and Lesbian," nobody, it would be all right. And it was all right. They took that. It was the word that was the problem: "Gay and Lesbian." So we said, "Okay. Just don't say that."

Peter: Yeah, so it's been- Asheville has its history. So do UNCA.

Horace: Do you want to talk about that?

Peter: Well, my whole career there I tried to get benefits for my partner, and I never got a single one.

Horace: Really?

Peter: No. Because it's a state university, it's a state institution. And the state was not going to give anything and were very clear about that, for everything I tried to do.

Ron: But if you stayed there-

Peter: And on top of that, in the 90s every time I turned around Campus Crusade was running some kind of seminar on "What Does the Bible Have to Say About Homosexuality?"

Horace: Oh, really?

Ron: Nothing!

Peter: It was- I just found it too much.

Ron: But it's just discouraging. So we had to have safe spaces to recharge our batteries somewhere.

Peter: On of the things that Rocco and I did was we were aerobic cloggers in the 00:39:00health promotion program.

Horace: Oh wow.

Peter: I have a picture of his clogging. He was great at hiking and he was somewhat of a nudist.

Ron: Oh yes.

Peter: This is a t-shirt I'll give you also, if you want it. This was by King Daxton had a- what do you call it when you have an art opening? An art opening.

Ron: Well, it was a show.

Peter: Yeah. In Atlanta. And this is the shirts he was selling. This is his concept: "Surrender, Scarlett." Atlanta.

Ron: Oh, Atlanta.

Horace: Thank you. What did that mean by "Surrender, Scarlett"?

Peter: It is the fact that Atlanta needed to get past its "Gone With the Wind" 00:40:00type attitudes.

Ron: Oh yes. God. We're still looking for just Scarlett.

Peter: One of the things that came out of the GSVs for us in particular was sweat lodges. Raven introduced the group that was running GSV to Peter Bearwalk, who was an Apache Indian elder who had the sweat lodge ceremony. And he breathed life into Rocco's pipe, and we had sweat lodges at our property.

Ron: We did that at Running Water, too.

Peter: We did.

Ron: We had sweat lodges there.

Peter: But this- so this was a Gathering. This is at my property on [inaudible] Mars Hill. And this was pictures of us getting the sweat lodge together and 00:41:00creating the inipi and the fire pit. And it was a brother lodge, and it was only men. And only gay men. Peter Bearwalk gave us the ceremony. And Rocco held sweat lodges there.

Peter: In 2014, Rocco got ill. He had one night he was- severe pains in his abdomen, and we went to the VA the next day. He was in the Army. And they did X-rays and they discovered he had tumors and he died exactly one month later.

Ron: It was quick.

Peter: And this is the card I made.

Horace: I'm sorry for your loss.

Peter: It was terrible. I cried for a year. And I mourned him for a year. This is some other pictures. This is a picture of he and I. And another one. A picture of him. Very beautiful.

Peter: And then a year after he died my story is that I did another ceremony with his ashes a year later, the remaining part I had. And then I said, "I'm ready to meet someone and I have no idea how." And I said, "I needed your help, Rocco." And all of a sudden the right man shows up, and his name is Ving. He's from Vietnam, from Hanoi.

Ron: That was a little bit like the RFD. Mother Earth's News.

Peter: Yeah. And we were introduced through John Ferguson, the friend who had property near Running Water and all.

Ron: Yeah. He's based in Thailand, I think.

Peter: Yeah. He has a house in Bangkok. This is Ving when we first met. And our emails and our house. And we got together and we traveled to New York in my smart car. Then we met John Ferguson in Washington D.C. on that trip, and stayed with his for a little bit. Explored Washington D.C. And the reason I have this so well documented is because I had to do credible documentation in order for him to get through immigration. He's finally getting his permanent green card now.

Horace: Oh, really?

Peter: Yeah. This is meeting my family in New York.

Ron: But now that you're married, doesn't that make him a-

Peter: Let me tell you, nothing's automatic with immigration. I love this picture with him and the Statue of Liberty.

Horace: That's a good one.

Peter: And I enhanced this picture with hearts.

Horace: Cute.

Ron: Of course.

Peter: And then this is the person who took my place at UNCA, who happens to be a Canadian immigrant of Indian descent.

Horace: What's his name?

Peter: Rudy Baharising. And he's- he could sympathize with all of our immigration woes and give us pointers.

Ron: So what is Ving's status now?

Peter: He's just getting his ten year permanent green card.

Ron: Good.

Peter: It's supposed to come in the mail like today.

Ron: Wow. That's good.

Horace: Congrats.

Ron: I was going to say that one of my masari brothers works for one of the senators. Maybe he could help-

Peter: Well I may need his help, because we have other problems. This is Ron Lambe's 80th birthday at the Masonic Temple.

Ron: Oh yeah. That was my 80th.

Peter: And he had a cello choir, because Ron Lambe plays the cello. And so-

Ron: Tim Britton either arranged it or wrote it.

Horace: Wow.

Peter: Wow. Yeah.

Ron: So that was blowout, because we took three floors for that event.

Peter: He was the secretary of the Masonic Temple, so he had the keys to the kingdom.

Ron: Still do.

Peter: Good for you.

Ron: Except I'm missing the lodge room key, I think. Get that replaced.

Peter: And then John Ferguson came to visit us. Here he is. And we went to Roan Mountain and visited Running Water. This was at Running Water. Right there.

Ron: Yeah, we would visit. One of the things that we had to bring closure to, Running Water, was it was so painful because of the projects I didn't quite finish. I had turned RFD over to somebody. I also turned Running Water over to 00:47:00someone. He was like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl. He was a damn Yankee.

Peter: Oh my God!

Ron: Well, you met him.

Peter: Oh, I know.

Ron: And he came out fine and all that. He had been to a Gathering and all that.

Peter: But he wasn't a "damn Yankee," he was from Arkansas.

Ron: But he went around insulting the neighbors. And that just-

Horace: You don't do that.

Peter: No.

Ron: So there was no way we could keep the property, we had to sell it. And I went to- when we bought the property we had chairs in our Stepping Stone. And I ended up being- I don't know, whatever.

Peter: Secretary.

Ron: Secretary. Yeah.

Peter: Of the corporation.

Ron: Secretary of the corporation. That's how I got to Clinton's inauguration, was I got an invitation.

Peter: Because he was secretary of some corporation!

Ron: They do that for corporate people because they think they're all Republicans. I had news for them! But I had a great time, and I loved Maya Angelou, and I just... how did I get divergent here? But anyway, that's why we had to sell the property. And it was the energy there. Part of the beauty of the place was the energy that was there. It's all that negative water. But I can't even think of his name now.

Peter: Yeah. I don't know either. It's better you don't

Ron: Yeah. But anyway, he put in such dark energy there it was painful. It was actually painful to get on the property. So I didn't go for maybe ten years.

Peter: It's changed, though. It's better now.

Ron: It's all right now. Thank God. But he was a bad mistake.

Peter: So Ving and I have had an actual wedding. This was on April 9, 2016. We didn't exchange rings, we exchanged scarves because we're tropical and love to be warm.

Horace: I love that.

Ron: Rings are so cold.

Peter: This is my friend Bruce, he officiated for us and we had it at our house. And we set up the living room as a chapel to do it.

Ron: And it was quite a bunch of people.

Peter: My friend Micheal Head, who is in that picture way back with Harry Hay, he sang at the wedding for us.

Ron: What ever happened to Michael?

Peter: He's not communicating with me right now. It worries me, because he always goes into silence when things are going terrible in his life. So I'm afraid they are.

Ron: Too bad.

Peter: So this was the first gay wedding that almost everybody who was there had ever been to.

Horace: Really?

Peter: Because it had just become legal like several months before in North Carolina. There's a lot of places in the world where things had been going on. But not here.

Ron: Oh no. Gay [inaudible] in the Supreme Court was astounding.

Peter: Yes. We had to have the whole country go before we would go.

Ron: What was good about that was then North Carolina couldn't take an exception. It's a federal.

Horace: That's beautiful.

Peter: Thank you. Do you have any questions?

Ron: We're a little scattered in our presentation, but I hope we got something across. It's so much history that it's hard to make it fit into something.

Peter: Tell me about the Masonic Temple and how you got involved in that.

Horace: Yeah, I would like to hear that.

Ron: Well, that's another story. I've always been curious, and I ran for city council as an openly gay man. And I did not win. However, I placed well. I 00:52:00wasn't on the bottom. And the city council loved me, so they appointed me to the transit commission, and I stayed on that for ten years. Most of my episodes are ten years or fifteen, something like that. I diverged.

Peter: You were getting back to the Masonic Temple.

Ron: Okay. My neighbors here, Poochie and Bill, Bill was a Mason and she was one of the ladies in the Eastern Star. And they encouraged me to join. He has a larger here. I later found out he had applied at downtown, and they didn't take him because of the physical problem. Oh my God, in the old days you had to be 00:53:00perfect of body and soul. So I had them come over, my interview committee. Oh my God, there was about five of them or so. And I just let it out, you know. But I knew they knew I was gay, but we didn't talk about it. Because I just didn't want to go in- so they accepted me and I went through all that and it was very beautiful. And I'm still a Mason. But there's very few gay Masons, and that's going to to be a challenge to overcome.

Ron: At the Temple we had a play- this is much later- that had drag queens or 00:54:00something. I don't know what it was. And because it was advertised at the Masonic Temple, they found out about it out West. They took great exception. "We can't have Masonry," or whatever, "associated with gays." So there was a big meeting at the Masonic Temple with the Grand Master and the past Grand Master, and a whole bunch of people. They worked it out. So it's kind of an unspoken thing. We have- one of the brothers in line to be Grand Master, it takes about 00:55:00seven year to do that, is gay. He's very non-flamboyant and all that. He's very cool. But I know it and he knows it and he knows I know it. But I ain't going to say anything.

Ron: So what I'm hoping is we'll face it directly rather than under-the-covers type thing. I don't know how the- the meeting came out fine- I don't know how they worked it, because I wasn't in the meeting.

Peter: So when you say "to be Grand Master," what does that mean, exactly?

Ron: That is the head chief honcho for the state. There's a Grand Lodge for every state.

Peter: So are there states that are ahead on this issue?

Ron: Yes, California is.

Peter: I imagined so.

Ron: There was one Grand Lodge that- I think it was South Carolina- that expelled some Masons because they were gay. And that caused a storm, because then some other Grand Lodges said, "No, that's not a reason. There is no reason." And so all of the Grand Lodges are in communication to the other Grand Lodges. But something bruised or broke the tie with them. And I think that sort of calmed down, now. But for a while they were persona non grata for a lot of Grand Lodges. The Grand Lodge of North Carolina is open to it, but not 00:57:00officially. And I want to get it official someday. So I'm waiting for Kevin to be Grand Master. I think he's Junior Warden this year so just three more years because you have a year as associate.

Peter: Do you know Kevin?

Horace: I don't think I do.

Peter: What's his last name?

Ron: Fraser.

Peter: Kevin Fraser? He worked-

Horace: That sounds familiar.

Peter: He worked at UNCA for years and years and years.

Horace: I think I do know that name.

Peter: And he's a graduate.

Ron: Oh, he did the graduate work there. Yeah. But he has a brother who is not gay, and they're very close. And the brother is the one that works for the senator.

Peter: Oh. Which senator? Burr?

Ron: I think it is Burr. They were fraternity brothers, but open with each 00:58:00other. So the brother is very supportive of- what's his name? Kevin. So all of this- at some point that's one of my tasks. I'm going to open that up and make it official. It should be. Covering it up won't make it go away. It's there. Because being gay has nothing to do with Freemasonry. Masonry is all about being a good person. It's got Christians, you know. There's some people who are Christians.

Ron: So what time is it? My watch died.

Horace: I didn't look. Looks like 11:27, is that...

Peter: I've got 12:26.

Horace: Yeah. 12:26.

Ron: That's an hour you'll be able to use. [inaudible]

Peter: Do you want to do lunch? I'll take you out to lunch.

Horace: Yeah, if you would like to.

Ron: Let me call my neighbor and tell him that I'm going to lunch without him.

Horace: I'll go ahead and turn this recording off if that's good with y'all.

Ron: Oh my goodness.

Peter: Do you want it?

Horace: Yeah.