Oral History with Anita White

Interview with Anita White conducted by Cassidy Joyner, Michael Dennis and Ellie Woolard on March 18, 2023.

Cassidy Joyner (C): Okay it is Saturday March 18th 2023 and I am Cassidy Joyner. Today I will be interviewing Anita White um, just about the White family in general.

Anita White (A): My name is Anita White and I look forward to talking with you.

C: Okay, well, for the first question it's just kind of a general question, but like, what are your favorite memories of favorite memories of your family in the Shiloh Community from your childhood or just in general?

A: There are so many. Uh, some of my favorite memories I think are centered around my school experience at the Shiloh Elementary School, which was a Rosenwald school. I could walk to school. My parents were very much involved, in fact the community was involved with the school. The school was like a community center. So we would have lots of plays, activities on the ballpark, all kinds of community events in and around school so some of my favorite memories center around school.

C: Okay, I guess another question would be, how did the church specifically, (Shiloh A.M.E. Zion) like, how is that important to the community and to your family, like specifically as well?

A: Well, remember when I was growing up, I grew up in a segregated society. So, the community was-- uh sort of sustained itself. And the church was a very important part of the community. My family was involved with the community. In fact, my great grandfather Mallory was one of the original trustees. And then Robert L. White, I mean Robert White Sr., My grandfather came over with the group and was involved with the church. My family was very much involved with the church. At one time my father was the cemetery manager, graveyard manager. Now dad never went to, he, dad went to church on Christmas, Easter, and maybe one other time, but he really kept the graveyard together and worked a lot with the graveyard. He supported the church financially, he was a carpenter, he did work on the church, but in terms of sitting there for two hours, he would not do it. My mother was a deaconess. She was at one time, she was kind of like the mother of the church. She was super involved with the church, and made sure we all went to church. And it was really funny when we were kids, if you didn't go to church on Sunday morning you didn't leave the yard on Sunday afternoon. So, we all went to church, and because the church was such an important part of the community, you not only went to church on Sunday morning, you went to Sunday school, you went to service, and in the afternoon there was always something going on. At one time we had a minister, this was-- okay so I'm talking about in the fifties. We had a-- maybe six-- in the fifties, sixties. We had a minister there who was very much involved with the youth and he would always have youth programs. We would go meet, if not on Sunday, then one day during the week. So church was a part of our lives from mon-- Sunday through Saturday. There was always something going on, either at the church or the school. My siblings were also active in the church, I've been working with Diane Zimmermon going through the church records and you see at one time they kept very good records and you would see who attended what meeting, who attended the youth group, Anita White. Paschel White. So, I participated very much in the church when I was living here, 'cause I moved-- After I graduated college, I moved away for a good little while, so this was mostly in the-- you know in my youth.

C: Yeah, um, If you don't mind me asking, you talked about your, like, parents some, and could you talk about their like, contributions I guess, or how they've kind of interacted with the community. 'Cause I've kind of read a lot about, like, how much your mother did in the community, but, like, also I know that's kind of a sensitive question.

A: No, I don't mind. I don't mind talking about them. I think they were, they were very active in the community. First I'll talk about my father. My father, he didn't start but in the early years, I think in the forties, late forties, early fifties, he was a part, a board member, a trustee, a whatever, with this group called the Community League. And the Community League was a group of mostly men, but there were a few women. And they were very active, say from the.. I;m gonna say from the mid-forties, that may be a good date. From the mid-forties until, I know dad died in '69, so the early sixties. And, they lobbied the city for things like paved roads, we didn't have paved roads out, I remember dirt roads out here, and the city bringing tar round to keep the dust down. They lobbied for streetlights. For a long time we didn't have streetlights, and finally we got a streetlight, and they put it right across from my front porch. So when I came home there was a big light and I couldn't kiss my boyfriend because there was a big light. But anyway, they lobbied for that. They also sponsored youth groups, not only youth groups, they sponsored a baseball league, and I have a picture of that if you want it. My mother was, well I'll talk about her differently, but, um, and they sponsored a lot of activities on the schoolground because remember, the school was a segregated school and the county did not support it very well. So the community league would have events, fundraising events, on the schoolground. My dad was very active in that group. He was also the neighborhood scout leader, he had a boy scout troop. And my brothers and all the kids. There are kids around here who still remember Mr. Will. Mr. Will White, and the Boy Scouts. He would take them camping. He worked with a scout leader, Walter Mapp, over town, and they worked to get a place, a camping place, for them. Dad was-- Dad was very active in the community. He was very civic minded. He was also very strict with the kids, so you know I had a strict bringing up from him. Anything else you want to know about him?

C: Not right now, that was a lot of information.

A: Well my mom was also very active in the community. She was the Scout-- well I said she was a Deacon in the church, kind of the mother of the church, the first one there, the last one to leave, and raised a lot of money with the missionaries. But she was also the Girl Scout leader, and I have a picture of them too. So at one time, so she had the Girl Scouts, the Brownies and the Cub Scouts. And Scouting was very much a part of this community, so kids always remember her. She was famous for making grape jelly that she would send every.. She sent grape jelly to Germany when some cousin was in the service or something like that. But, she was-- she was a remarkable woman and I will always remember her as someone who taught me a lot.

C: Well thank you. That was so, like, great. Um.. So I guess this kind of goes into another question, based off of the church and like your family's involvement. But like, your family's involvement with the church and it's creation, kind of slash development, especially in the early days of Shiloh. If you know anything about--.

A: Well, like I said, when the-- you all have the history of the church. When it moved from-- when it was moved over to this location from the Biltmore Estate. Well my grandfather, and it sounds strange to call him my grandfather because there's such an age difference. My grandfather, Robert White Sr, he was a part of that move, and so--. And I mentioned Mallory was a part of that move. So in terms of the development of the church, I mean, they worked, you know, to actually-- it came in parts, you know, they moved a church. So uh-- They worked to actually build a church, and probably they helped move some of the graves over. So they have just been a part of the church ever since. And then as I said before, you know, my dad worked with the cemetery. And my mother was very much involved with the church in terms-- she was an usher, deacon, she was just everything in the church. But she was involved with the church in terms of helping to raise funds, and she also had a young kids group, she taught Sunday school. So I would with think that, and I'm talking from-- up until the--. I left here in I guess '69. I went to college, no I graduated,I don't remember. But anyway, I left here in the late sixties and I didn't come back to this community until '84. So, but during that time, I do remember, you know, them always sending me information, send money for homecoming, the church homecoming, send money for this. And I don't know what else to say.

C: Yeah, well thank you. That did kind of bring up a question in my mind because you talked about leaving and then coming back, and there's quite a few family members that did leave and come back, and it's like, how do I ask this question? Like, I understand that that's common, and is it like, a draw to the community and wanting to come back, and like, help out? Or why do you think that a lot of people leave and then decide to come back later in their life.

A: I don't, I don't--. I know why I did it. I mean-- Back when you say leave, we're talking about in the sixties and fifties and sixties, that time period, you know, that was the great migration for a lot of people out of the South. Black people just left. All of my cousins, not all of them, but most of my cousins left. They went to Washington, they stayed there for a while and then they moved on to Philadelphia. There's a lot of Whites in Philadelphia. And some of them, yes, I'm talking about in my family, I don't know why other people come back, but in my family, you know they were older. Times had changed. Life was different. It was no longer a segre-- we were no longer restricted. So, and we were older, so there's comfort in being around your family when you're older. So, I came back because my mother was ill, and I had a young son. I was living in Pittsburgh, I'd been there for quite some time, and I did not want to raise my son in the city. And I had fond memories, you know, you always have fond memories but reality may have been different, but I had fond memories of living in Shiloh. I mean, you know, Shiloh was just like a village. I knew everybody, people knew me. If I acted up Miss Jane would call and say: "Anita's up here doing this, come get her" you know that kind of stuff. And I wanted that kind of life for my son. So, it was just like a, not a perfect storm, but my mother was sick, my son was young, I had recently divorced my husband, I was alo-- not alone, I had a lot of friends in Pittsburgh. But, it was just a time to come back and start a new life. And I'm not so sure, some of the other people that I know who have come back have come back because they've retired and they have family here. My mother's twin sister lived in Philadelphia for the longest time, she returned with her daughter at the age of ninety-five. She broke down a four room house, she did it. She and her-- and moved down here because all of her friends had died. And she wanted her daughter, who was my age, I don't know why but she's different, she wanted her daughter to be around family too. So that and then a couple of other relatives, I have a cousin who's in Salem, no-- Salem college Boston, anyway. She moved back because her fam-- She-- She's trying to move back if she can get a job at a college or somewhere, because her family's here. Her brother is in California, he recently was in California. He moved back, not to Shiloh, but to Charlotte, somewhere nearby. So, I think that has a lot to do with it because people perceive the South differently now than they did when they left.

C: Yeah, that was a really great answer, that's like, so amazing. Kind of moving on to a different section of the history of the area, but the Biltmore Estate, and I know not only a lot of members of just Shiloh the community, but also quite a few of your family members worked at the Biltmore Estate.

A: Yes, a lot of-- Remember I keep going back. Young people have, you're so beautiful and young (laughs). But you have to understand the times. It was a segregated time, and people were familiar with the estate in the early years because, you know, they had family stories of when their-- Actually they probably had family stories of when their parents were over there. And there were not a lot of jobs for black folk, and a lot of jobs were for domestics, some of them worked in the Biltmore forest. But there were a lot of them who worked on the estate, the men who worked on the estate. In fact, recently I've been working with a woman and someone from the estate who's doing a history of one of the men who lived in Shiloh. His name was Sylvester Owens, he was one of the azalea hunters. And so, he worked on the Biltmore Estate. He lived right behind me. I can think of several people who when I was young, who worked on the estate.

C: Yeah, I know one of them, and if you wouldn't mind talking about, I mean, him and his role in the community, I know Robert "Robjack" White worked there.

A: I don't remember Robjack working on the estate but he probably did because he was-- he was the grandson of the Robert L. White, the first Robert White Sr. Yeah, he was the grandson. I've been going through my family and there's so many names, and I'm so confused, but anyway. But Rob-- I don't remember when Robjack worked on the estate. I remember Robjack when I was growing up 'cause he was a character. He really was a character. He was not well educated, and he loved children, but-- and he would always carry either Juicy Fruit, or Beech-Nut chewing gum in his pocket and he would give it to the kids. And Robjack, I think-- I think he was-- worked sort of a janitorial work around the church. I think he did that, but I know he was always the bell ringer. And he would-- He lived up the street around the corner from us and you can always tell when Robjack was going down to ring the bell. Robjack was very much afraid of dogs and my mother had a big boxer, and that was the kindest, most gentle dog you ever wanted to see, but that dog could not stand Robjack. And everytime Robjack turned the corner, the dog would bark. It was the only time the dog would bark. But-- So Robjack came down every Sunday morning, rang the bell, probably stoked the furnace, I don't know what he did-- but he was much loved here in the community

C: That's great. Well, I guess we could talk about Robjack's father, Robert L White--

A: Junior.

C: Junior (laughs). 'Cause there's so many Robert L. Whites in the family.

A: Yeah.

C: I know he had a lot of kids.

A: Yes. Robert L. White. I mean Robert Jr. was my father's brother, and he-- you're right. We called him Daddy Rabbit 'cause he had-- First he married Sallie Daugherty and they had, I don't know, maybe four kids, I'm not sure. And shortly after his last-- their last kids were born... I think-- I don't remember the names of-- but Sallie died. So when she died there were two young children in the family. And remember this was a village, everybody knew everybody, everybody took care of everybody, and so the community decided that Robert, he had at least four kids, I think it was four, and two babies. And everybody decided that Robert needed a wife. So they did what you call community matchmaking, and they found Emma, and Emma and Robert were married, I don't know, less than two or three years after Sallie died but very soon after Sallie died. And Robert, I'm going to refer to him as uncle Bobby, 'cause he was my uncle and we always called him uncle Bobby. He had a big house up here on White Avenue. It was... Not White Avenue, Brooklyn. I have a picture of that. On Brooklyn Road, no not Brooklyn Road, West Chapel Road. It was a big house up there. It's in disrepair, it's falling down now. But, he had like I said, he had several children, and his children, most of his children, moved away, you know, a part of that Great Migration. Some of them stayed here. Emma's children tended to stay, but Sallie's children moved to Philadelphia for the most part. That was Joseph, but anyway, they moved to Philadelphia. But in the summer, because these people worked, it's hot in the summer, kids get in trouble in the summer, they didn't have-- kids were out of school. So in the summer, many of those cousins, Robert's grandchildren, would come down to Asheville. That's where they had family members to take care of them and look after them. So-- But, Uncle Bobby, Robert L., Robert Jr., Uncle Bobby, or Daddy Rabbit, however you want to call him, would sit on his porch and he was famous for making absolutely wonderful poundcakes, and you couldn't go in the house when a poundcake was in the oven. And he also very famous for making fly swatters. He would take a piece of leather, attach a coat hanger, and he would sit on the porch and swat flies. And everybody in the neighborhood knew him because there was a long front porch, and a not too-- not a very deep front yard. And so everyone would just come, now, when he was younger he also worked-- very much part of the church. But I remember him as an old man, because there was such a big difference in our ages. I remember him just sitting on the porch. C: You mentioned that a lot of his grandkids would come down to Asheville in the summer, and you told us a story about a Joseph R. White.

A: Ah, yeah. Joseph White was-- Okay, there was Joseph Sr. That was-- Now he was-- He was uncle Bobby's oldest child and he moved to Philadelphia and he had a son. Now which Joseph are you talking about? His son Joseph?

C: His son Joseph.

A: Okay, Joseph was a handsome man. He was so handsome. He-- He was-- he would come down as a kid but when he came down, I don't know, he was a grown man. Ages, I don't know, I guess in his late twenties or something like that. He met Dot Thompson. It was love at first sight. Joe was down maybe for a week, maybe two weeks and he just came down on vacation, but before he left they were engaged, and they were married within a couple of months. That was-- everybody just talked about, that was a love story. And he took his bride, who lived on my street. Took her back to Philadelphia, and they lived in Philadelphia for a while. They had, I don't know, a number of kids. At least four girls and one boy, maybe three girls, I don't know. But Joe was, we called him Joe, Joe was an-- he worked for the airlines, he was an airline mechanic or something like that, but anyway, he was badly burned in an explosion. Almost killed. And so he was no longer able to work, terribly disfigured. And he was such a handsome man. So Joe, again wanting to be around family, moved his whole family back down to Asheville. And his kids for the most part grew-- Well, they lived in Philadelphia, but in their later years they grew up on White Avenue here in Shiloh. And Joe was a city boy. He knew nothing about the dirt or the earth or anything, but he was smart. So when he came down he had this huge backyard. He met with people from the agricultural agency, learned all about the earth and plants and Joe had the best garden in the neighborhood. It was a huge garden and everybody talked about the city boy and his garden. So, and, that was pretty much it for Joe. He and Dot were very happy with their children up there. And then their kids again moved, all moved away, so-- Except for one.

C: I guess another family member that we thought was pretty interesting, or at least the side of the family, is Isaac White. I think he's Robert L. White Sr's brother.

A: Brother.

C: Yeah, and then-- because he had a lot of kids as well. And there was Edward White and Pearl Harper Hall, and I thought there's a pretty interesting connection with Lovey Logan because her family also--

A: Okay, I've been trying to figure it out because I didn't know any of-- I didn't-- Well, I wouldn't have known Isaac White, I wouldn't have been born, but I don't know, for some reason I didn't know that side of the family or his children or anything. 'Cause when you sent me the list of people you were interested in I had to actually go to figure out who Edward was, and Edward was Isaac's son I think. And I've always tried to figure out how Julian White fit into the family, and I haven't quite figured that out yet. But, I don't know, I get so tangled up in ancestry and all the names. But do you know where Julian White? You've been working on that for--

C: Uh-- Julian Nathaniel White? He's Edward's son.

A: He's Edward's son. So I always thought that he was not a part of-- That they were a different set of Whites but I now I know they weren't. Because he has a son out here named Spencer, and we never considered ourselves cousins, but I guess we are. But, Lovey White was the Logan, Reverend Logan's Daughter, and she-- I knew her better than I knew Julian, I just knew Julian as her-- as her husband. So, I don't know what the connection is that-- Remember again, this was a small village and you had everybody knew everybody so the Logans were a big part of the neighborhood, the Whites were a big part of the neighborhood, it just seems natural that there would be some intermarriage. So I guess that's how that happened. I have a funny story about Lovey, If you want to hear it?

C: I'd love to hear it.

A: Lovey lived again up on West Chapel road, right across from the original White family house. Lovey was a hairdresser. And she-- she did hair for all the children in the neighborhood. And they had a big garden in the back, and it was a beautiful garden. But-- And my mother didn't know what to do with my hair. She couldn't-- She couldn't yield a comb. So anyway, she would always send me up to Mrs. Lovey's for Mrs. Lovey to do my hair, or send me somewhere else to get my hair done. But anyway, every time I went up to Mrs. Lovey's to get my hair done it would rain. I mean, you know, and rain is the worst thing you can do when you have a fresh hairdo. So, one summer it was particularly dry, and Mrs. Lovey called my mother, or sent word down to my mother: "please send Anita up here to get her hair done, we need some rain on my garden" (laughs).

C: That's so cute. I guess, I think there's one more family member, John White. There's I think it's your fath-- one of your father's siblings John White, also well, Rufus-- Oh god there's so, okay.

A: There's so many of them.

C: There's so many!

A: Yes.

C: But it's, Catherine White Lynch and like Rufus Lynch, and then they had a son called John White that I think we're pretty interested in.

A: Now, there was-- Now John White, you're talking about Catherine's son John, not Robert's brother John.

C: Yes.

A: Which John are you talking about? Catherine's son John? I don't remember John. I don't-- I just know he-- I don't remember him at all. But--

C: That's fine.

A: Do you know John's birthday, I don't know whether I would have known him.

C: He was born March 10th ,1916.

A: And he died, did he die before forty. 1916, when did he die?

C: It says about 1972.

A: Well I should have known him, but I don't remember him. I think I remember him as being a little man-- little short man, but I don't remember him.

C: Well that's fine. I mean, I don't know if we had any other family members that we had too many questions about. There was one. Hattie White?

A: Oh yeah, Hattie (laughs).

C: It sounds like you have something to say about her.

A: Okay, let me get Hattie in perspective. Now Hattie was Catherine's daughter right?

C: Yes.

A: Hattie was Catherine's daughter. So, Catherine, aunt Catherine, my father's sister, lived next door to us. And-- Now Hattie is older than I am, so I didn't know Hattie, I mean, you know, I wouldn't have had any-- But Hattie actually left Shiloh too at some point. And then she returned and she lived in the house, her mother's house, next door to us. And She had two daughters. But Hattie was-- Hattie was not the kindest person I've ever known. She was.. She was difficult. And when I was a child she was a grown woman of course, and she lived next door, and she was always telling on me, or trying to discipline us. We were her cousins I guess.

C: Okay. We had another question about Catherine White. Her-- If you-- Do you know anything about her first husband William White?

A: William Charles White?

C: Yes.

A: People-- 'Cause they had William White. "Cause her brother was William White. So-- No, I don't know anything about him. I was trying to do a little-- Were they in Tennessee?

C: Yes.

A: Yeah, Yeah. I don't know anything. 'Cause when she moved back to Asheville, she came back with Hattie. I think. And everybody was wondering 'cause she came back as a White. And she left as a White. And she came back with a kid. So it-- So I didn't know anything about him but I do remember in her obituary. Her obituary-- Hattie's obituary was Hattie White White. Yeah, so. But I didn't know anything about him. I don't remember any family stories about him.

C: That's okay. I-- Another Hattie in the family that we're interested in as well. She's towards the beginning, she's Hardin Mallory's daughter, Harriet White I believe. Robert L. White Sr's wife.

A: Robert L. White Sr's wife? Harriet.

C: Yes.

A: Yeah, that was my grandmother. Yeah, I have a picture of her also. She died, I think the same year I was born. So I don't-- All I do remember, I do remember family stories about her though. She used to take in laundry at a house up there on the corner. I remember that. But I didn't know her. My father must have been totally totally in love with her, because he named both his girls Harriet. And I didn't know my name was Harriet. I was born first, and when I got ready to go to college I had to get my certificate, I'm not-- my birth certificate. So my mother took me up to get it and they said, "Well we don't have one for Anita. We have two for Harriet. A Harriet White born on March twenty-fourth and a Harriet White born on March twenty-seventh. Those were our birthdays. So I could not get a birth certificate in my name, because I'd been called Anita, well Arnetta, Juanita, finally Anita. And so I actually had to have my name legally changed to Anita. Well, no, when I went to college the register of deeds just wrote me out a birth certificate for me with Anita, but he did not file it. Which meant that it was not in Raleigh, so when years years later, when I was-- oh years later when I was getting a passport and I had to have a birth certificate it was still Harriet White. So I had to legally have my name changed. But that's what I remember about my grandmother. Both the girls were named after her.

C: That's so sweet. He must have really loved her. I think we kind of asked all the general questions but if there's any more, like, stories or information, anything that you think you would just like to have on record I guess.

A: I don't-- I can't remember, I have so many. Um-- Prompt me what would you like, I don't know (laughs). I'll tell you a story about my mother that's going to be in a book that a little girl next door is writing. There's a young lady that grew up next door to us who is writing-- it's in the-- it may be published yet. It's just called Shiloh. And it's not a history book, it's a collection of stories pretty much like what you're doing. It's a collection of stories from people around in Shiloh. So she asked me about my mother 'cause she loved my mother. My mother used to babysit her. So she asked me about my mother, and my mother was very much involved, as I said, with the scouts. So the-- She said do you have a funny story about your mother, and I said well, mom used to take all the girls camping. And my uncle had this huge pasture down-- it's a big place. At one time it was-- his sons made a golf course back in the day black people didn't have golf courses. It was a golf course down there, and then it became a pasture for his one cow Betsy, and then it became a scouting place. It was a little running lake, little creek that ran. So my mother would take us down there for camping a lot, and one night there were two tents. Mom was in one tent, I was in another tent and we all had other people in the tent. And all of a sudden in my tent there was a shadow that came across the thing and everybody started screaming, you know, we were young teenage girls, silly. Everybody started screaming, my mother came running over there and you know thought someone was attacking us. And she saw the shadow and she said "Betsy would you please get your nose out of the tent." (laughs). It was the cow. So-- that's-- And kind of related to the White family also Tanya, that girl who's writing the book did a lot of history about-- She grew up on White Avenue. Why was it White Avenue? And it was White Avenue, we think-- she's looked at some, you know records, because when Robert L. White moved out here he had lots of land down that way, and his children lived around. And remember it was dirt, little dirt road up there. So his children lived along that little dirt road. His children or his brothers, or some White. So when I was growing up everybody-- So event--. they just called it White Avenue. White Street, that's where all the White's lived. And I don't know when it became White Avenue, but when I grew up everyone on the street was either a cousin or an aunt, and then eventually other people-- they-- they left and other people. So now, I think, Joseph White lived on that street. Catherine White lived on that street. Hattie White lived on that street. Couple of other Whites. Richard White, who was Robert L's grands--. Robert L's son, lived on that street. So it was just called White Avenue. And I remember when I was young and someone would say "What's your name?" "My name's Anita" "And where do you live?" "My name's Anita White." "And where do you live?" "Oh, I live on White avenue." Oh you're just-- (laughs).

C: Well, I don't have any more official questions.

A: Okay, I have Dan White you want that? Caleb White was Daddy Rabbit's son with Emma, and my mother's twin sister married Caleb White. So in talking to the twin sister about her family history I also got a little history about the Whites. And they would talk about, you know just the-- just growing up around here and actually it's quite interesting, this lady was like a hundred when I was talking to her, about dating around here, and she and Caleb got married, you know, so going to the juke joints around here, they were in the neighborhood. Do you know what a juke joint is, have you ever heard of a juke joint? Going, and I remember aunt 'Lizabeth saying, and she was dating Caleb, but before she dated Caleb there was another young man in the neighborhood who was really sharp and she was saying "oh he was the ladies man because he had a sharp horse." You know, (laughs). Now you have a sharp car, but back in we're talking about nineteen-- I don't know, twenties or something like that. So, she's the only one-- well, I have other-- and no in terms of family recorded histories it's mostly about my mother's side of the family. Not about the Whites. I don't know-- I can't think of any other stories. I'll think of them all when you leave. That's pretty much it. We always had a lot of family get-togethers, a lot of, you know cook outs and fish fries, and we often had them up at Robert Jr's house. Daddy Rabbit's house because he had a big house, had a big yard. And his house was just like grand central station because his daughter Bonnie still lived there. Robjack still lived there. Yeah. Dan I think was-- Dan, oh Dan got married but anyway. So Daddy Rabbit's house was just the house where all of the family members gathered and so... And it's really interesting that you ask me about families. I wish I had talked more to them when I was younger. You know, there comes a time in your life when you say "oh goodness why didn't I get, why didn't I talk to this person, why didn't I talk to that person?" That's when I started recording my mother's twin sister and her connection is with the Bradshaws and the E. W. Pearson's and I have more, you know, a little more information about them. So--

Michael Dennis (M): Tell us a little bit more about the family gatherings.

A: Well--

M: Just any memories.

A: Well, he had a big porch, had a big yard, and we would cook out, you know, do barbeques, you know. Just meet up there. If Daddy Rabbit had a cake in the oven you couldn't go in the house because it would fall. His cakes were famous. And we did this more in the summer because there would be grandkids down from Philadelphia so-- that was a lot of fun. We got to know each other. And it's sad so many of these kids don't know each other anymore. There's no-- It was kind of like the home house even though it wasn't our home, but-- yeah. Other gatherings that we had, not necessarily at Daddy Rabbit's house, was-- my father was well known for his barbeque too, and we would have-- we would have not family gatherings but community gatherings on the schoolyard. These happened regularly because often people would, they would sell food and the money would go to the school. The community actually had to support the school. So, we had a lot of family gatherings, not just family but all community gatherings on the schoolyard. And I remember Fourth of July was a real big day, not because of the history of the holiday but it was just a big day when all the kids would be down from Philadelphia, usually around that time. And we would have it on the school ground. And my father and his friends with the Community League would always roast a pig and they would-- in our backyard dig a pit, put a-- all night long sit and turn that pig. And that was the only time I ever saw my father drink because the guys that he was, you know, working with turning the-- they would be drinking beer, talking and telling lies, and that was the only time I ever saw my father drink. So we had not only family gatherings at Daddy Rabbit's, but a lot of them on the school grounds.

C: I think I do actually have a question. 'Cause you-- you talked very briefly about, like, segregation in the area.

A: Mmm hmm.

C: I don't-- I mean-- any, I guess not stories but about, like-- do you remember it ending, or like just how it affected the community at all I guess.

A: Okay, uh-- I wasn't living here-- I remember when the city of Asheille started to desegregate when the ASCORE kids were working with those, but after segregation-- I remember the schools being desegregated, and-- Was I living here then? I don't, maybe I've been doing a lot of research so may be something I've read but I do remember, oh I did remember reading articles about people in the neighborhood being very upset that they were closing our school, 'cause it was a nice little school. And it was simply because, and they closed black schools all over the city for the most part, simply because they didn't want white kids to come down to the black schools. And so these kids were bussed out of, out of Shiloh. When I went to highschool. I'm a lot older than I look, but when I went to high school. I think, highschool was still segregated. School was still segregated. Kids went to Stephens Lee, so after-- but I do remember people being upset that the kids were, had to be bussed out of the city. And that's true everywhere. But when I was growing up during the time of segregation Shiloh was like a little, a little-- As I've said, I use the word village a lot. And we were self-sustaining. We had grocery stores and places where we could go, and we had the school which was considered our community center, for the most part. But I remember when the ASCORE kids were trying to desegregate the city I was at Allen High. I didn't go to Stephens Lee, I went to Allen. And I was not, you know, real friendly with-- I mean not that I wasn't friendly, it's just that they weren't my schoolmates. The ASCORE kids were not my schoolmates. One was, but-- I remember my father being very concerned. Remember he was born in eighteen ninety-six, ninety-eight, somewhere along there. And he grew up in the Jim Crow, I mean, he-- you know-- you know, he didn't drive at night, you know. Jim Crow was bad. So he had all of these memories, my father should-- My father was so much older than I was-- I, my father was in his fifties or maybe fifty, I don't know, when I was born. So he grew up in the Jim Crow era. So when the ASCORE kids were working to desegregate, I wanted to be a part of it but he was so, "No, I don't want them hurting my daughter. Don't." So he was really-- but I-- I participated in some of the things, but-- I do remember those kids being very, and-- Fantastic young group of people. But how it affected Shiloh? It, it just kind of happened. I was kind of gone away when most of it happened. I do remember as a kid not being able to go, to having to sit in the balcony at the theater. I've told this story before, I remember as a young kid, I don't remember how old I was, but I was old enough to go to the parade with my older brothers. And, this was Jim Crow also so you sit at the back of the bus and I was young, I didn't know too much about this. And I came and I sat beside this, you know I got on the bus. The.. we were walking toward home, not all the way home but a good part-- so I got on the bus. You would walk and wait for the bus, you'd walk and stand at a stop and whenever the bus came you'd get on it. I sat on this bus beside this white guy and he kicked me off the seat. And there were a lot of black young teenagers in the back of the bus and so-- oh they-- oh, oh my god. The bus driver stopped the bus. Everybody off the bus, called the police. Said he was going to call the police, but everybody off the bus. And we had to walk on home, and it was maybe two, I don't know. It wasn't... We were in Biltmore and I, you can imagine where Mcdonalds is it was down around that when he stopped the bus, so we walked from there back up to Shiloh. I remember that night the police coming around looking for the boys. But, you know, nobody-- "what we don't know anything about this." So, but that was my first encounter with being-- really knowing what it was to be in a segregated society.

C: Well thank you cause I know that's like, a sensitive topic, but I really appreciate it.

A: yeah it was. Yeah.